Singapore, Bugis, VF4

Hey all, just got back to Singapore yesterday. Man, I had a shitty flight. First, my 6 am flight from RDU to NYC got canceled, so I had to change my flight to a different carrier and rushed to a different terminal (literally running) to catch the 6:30 am flight. The price paid is that the suitcase that I checked in on American couldn't be transferred to USAirway in time...up to now, still no luggage. ~@!#%!@#$.

Anyway, the good news is that I just went through six straight hours of VF4 yesterday at Bugis--awesome. As Chris mentioned in another thread, 2 Versus City machines, great sticks on the 1P side (below average on the 2P), low rez monitors unfortunately, and only 50 Singaporean cents to play!! Best of all, there was a constant stream of challengers, and I was there from 10:30 am to 4:30 pm (i.e. maybe not even peak times).

Having so many challengers can give you so much of a better overall understanding of the game...because then you realize more generally what works and what doesn't. One odd thing I came to further realize is how long it has been since I faced good scrub players...you know, pattern players that are good at what they do. I guess the crowd in the U.S. is so small that few can be categorized as "good scrubs." I.e. players are either good, bad, or upcoming players. Know what I mean? Anyways.

Things I learned:

- Jacky is not that powerful. Jacky, who was by far my most effective character in NYC (in terms of win-loss), was relegated to "just ho-hum" in Singapore. I think it's in large part because 1) Singaporeans, having had VF4 longer, know how to deal with Jacky, and 2) I really do believe that Asian arcades promote faster reflexes relative to the U.S.. I base this observation on U.S.'s bigger sticks, bigger button layout, and increased distance from player to monitor.

- Akira is not that powerful. Few effective Akiras, and I couldn't remember one dominating. No one abused the SDE though. One Akira tidbit is how effective his b,f+P+K can be as an okizeme tool. Just stand right out of rising kick range and use it as soon as the opponent gets up. When done as quickly as possible, it's insanely fast and seems practically uncounterable. There was one Akira player who's entire gameplay was basically b,f+P+K or d/f+P+G as soon as you get up, LOL.

- Vanessa is a monster. I played against a good Vanessa for the first time yesterday (Chris' friend), and boy was I right about her. I had remarked that she seemed like a slower but stronger Jacky--uhm, damn dude, she has far better strings than Jacky and was nearly impossible to stop up close in MT mode. Scary. I definitely need to learn this biatch and get to know what attacks hit what.

- Lei Fei is a monster. Played against an experienced Lei Fei for the first time yesterday (Chris and his friend), and boy was I right about the monk. NOW I know why you guys are all insisting on him as a combo-deadly character. Up close, he's even worse than Vanessa, I have no idea what hits what, what comes next, what I can struggle out of, blah. The thing about Lei is that, while his strings are uber against beginners (hey, I'm still technically a beginner, only played VF4 a total of 7 sessions), you don't have to play Lei using constant strings, going from one attack to the other (a la Tekken). You can still play him as a "tricked ya, canceling out of my stance to throw you" type of a more typical VF character. Like Vanessa, because he has so many good strings, the opportunities for throwing are much more, relatively. That's what it seems like, at least.

- STILL, no one plays Sarah. I played against the first human Sarah today (Chris). I really don't know why she's so unpopular when you'd think she's the perfect character for the typical Singapore player...maybe we're afraid of her new stance and think it's a load to learn?

- Most popular characters: Akira, Lau, Kage, Jacky, and Lion.

- Lion: still as annoying as ever. Still a poking/okizeme type of character, but made even more effective with KD.

- Kage: Still so many people using the ninja!!!! Then again though, not very many people (if I remember correctly) really achieved a high level Kage in VF3, so when most players play Kage in VF4 for the first time, I'm betting most thought he got better. And I do like him a lot more in VF4 than VF3, and thankfully the tide may be beginning to turn for my Kage. In NYC, he was one of my most ineffective characters, but I had some good wins yesterday with him. Towards the end, I started playing him the most and that was when it seemed I finally "clicked" with the ninja.

But to all of you people trying to learn Kage: GIVE UP AND PLAY SOMEONE ELSE!! Far too many Kages still. Play Sarah, or Shun, or Vanessa, or Lei Fei, or Pai. They are just as interesting, and with the possible exception of Pai, are just as strong, if not stronger. It made me laugh to see this one Kage player who apparently knew most of the tricks (d/f+P and u/f+K+G combos, some Jumonji) but for every TFT went for a P > P > f+K+G > DP combo. It just seemed like the anti-thesis of what Kage should be/

- Pai, what's up with this woman. Does anyone know of an interesting and effective way to player her?! She's still the same old punches, sidekick, throw, heelkick kind of character, with a good sabaki and nothing much else. What about her inashis? Are they good? Guaranteed follow ups?

- Shun, only one good Shun today, kinda tricky. Still though, I don't think the Shun player realized that every time he fell down when his attack was defended he lost a DP, because he was doing the Sleeping Buddha stance (what's the name we're using for that again?), KPK a lot. Ended most matches with below 10 DP.

Finally, one last question: can you roll escape throws now? What I'm asking is, do you have to go back to neutral when inputting multiple throw escapes? For example, you escape with b+P+G, can you roll the stick from b to d/f and press P+G to escape both b+P+G and d/f+P+G? Or do you have to go back to neutral after b+P+G and then input d/f+P+G?

Aight, that's all for now. I'm on modem and have a paltry 6 hours a month. I'm probably going to head back to Bugis today, or maybe check out Orchard Point.

 

You did not play vs Andrew (Alucard), right??
He has a good Jacky and Akira.

I am that Chri's friend I must be one of the good scrub players you talked about. I think my Venessa got like 3 moves?? f+p,p,k, f+p+k and throw. oh I forgot the dodge punch. so that makes it a grand total of FOUR. then again there is the d+k,p,p and kkpp. so maybe there are 6.

anyway MT Venessa is weak if you dodge. I had a LOT of trouble at first with Shun cuz I do not know how to react to the d/b+p+k+g,p which dodge everything and recovers so fast. now I know, f+p+k is the way to deal with shun. removes TWO DP too

And interesting I found in the web, Venessa d+p+k+g low throw when broken gives Venessa initiative at close range. Tried and tested, looks true. A VERY GOOD reason to use the d+p+k+g after a KD.

Anyway you guys missed Kiat who came in right after Chris left. He plays a lot of characters pretty well but now it seems he is into KOF. duh....?? Kiat has two friends who are also pretty good. And there was one more guy who is pretty good, a half Japanese/Korean who plays Venessa, Jeffery, Kage. Maybe he will go down today.

Actually it is not good to play too much vs predictable characters. I think last week I had like 30+ wins with LeiFei and I think I actually got worse after playing so much. I mean I just kept killing them with the crane d+k which is err.... useless with better players.

I can't seem to decide who to pick. I started with Lion, changed to Wolf, then to Venessa, now to Lei and after seeing the shun player yesterday... maybe I will pick up Shun. This is bad. I will never improve much like that.

 

hehe told ya so.....(about lei fei's combo strength)...... btw are you updating the character attributes???

 

I lacked the will and inspiration to deal with Jeff on this most recent example of his raving, jibbering madness (specifically his thoughts about jacky/akira/speed), but irc did the work for me -
<pre>
Myke`: the two singaporeans have no fucking idea
CreeeD: heh, not unlike jeff when he says akira isn't all that strong.
Myke`: lol
Myke`: i know
Myke`: wtf
rsw: if i say to jeff he's insane he'll give me so much shit
CreeeD: well
CreeeD: he deserves a little something for ... lemme find it....
rsw: as in "U COCK U DONUT PLAY THE MASTRES LIEK I DU
IN JAPNA AND SPORE SO DONT U TELL ME ANYTHNIG" kind of shit
CreeeD: "I really do believe that relative to Asian arcades promote
faster reflexes relative to the U.S.. I base this observation
on U.S.'s bigger sticks, bigger button layout, and increased
distance from player to monitor."
Myke`: creed LMAO
Myke`: what a fucking line
Myke`: that kind of shit should be remembered
CreeeD: it's one to treasure forever in the jeff hall of insanity.
</pre>

 

ice-9,

All the Sarah players came after 7pm. I just got back from lugging 23kg of combat load including the M203, 2 exams and a visit to the doctor's respectively. Sure glad to be back playing VF. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Eric came too. I think besides ... can't recall. We are the Sarah players.

 

Hmmm..whatever happened to the low p tactics that was so popular when VF4 1st came out?

Is it still around?

Aye Jeff..now that u are back..go n eat those fishball mee...lor mee...fried kuay tiao, roti john, roti prata, nasi lemak, kuay peng... etc etc

I WOULD IF I AM BACK THERE NOW~

 

Yo Alan, I didn't think you were one of those scrubby players. Dude, your Vanessa inspired me!! I went to Orchard Point for a couple of hours to check out the arcade there. They had one VF4, Versus City, average sticks, and 50 cents per play! Nice. There wasn't much competition in the beginning, so I sat down and tried Vanessa out.

My first thoughts? "Phew." Once I started playing her a little more I've realized she's not as invincible as you made her look, heh heh. Awesome character though, I didn't realize how insane her throws (DS) are. So far I like DS more than MT, but only for her throws.

Another character I played a little today was Shun. This old man is definitely more of an expert's character. I read somewhere that he doesn't lose DP(s) if his falling down attack connects, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Overall, getting and keeping those DPs seem like a major part of Shun's gameplay.

Oh yeah, I don't know if you're reading this, Nelson (maybe someone want to pass this to him), but I figured out the 270 degree throw thing:

1. You need 10 DPs (just in case you didn't know

2. There's only one reliable method of input, and that's d,f,u,b+P+G. You can't do it any other way, because then you'll be inputting HCF or HCB at some point, which will get the Sleeping Buddha or the Headstand.

Anyway, I saw more of that Shun player today, dayum he's got a nice Shun. A lot of stuff that I haven't seen before--I'm not sure exactly what he did, but it involved the b+P. b+P will turn the opponent around, letting you have the chouwan combo.

It's too bad I missed alucard and Kiat! Ask them to come by again. I think Chris is going to be there tomorrow again, and I'll probably go again.

 

"Hmmm..whatever happened to the low p tactics that was so popular when VF4 1st came out?

Is it still around?"

Its still as popular as ever, MC low punch...yum.

 

ewwwwwwwwwwwww

It's sad~

 

Dude, I don't know why you're having such a cow.

I do think Asian arcades promote faster reflexes, but that obviously doesn't mean all Asian players necessarily have faster reflexes, duh. My basic point was that Singaporean players play more on reflexes (i.e. more zone, poking type of gameplay) than American gamers...in my experience at least. If you'd like, you can beg to differ, but a comparison between America and Singapore would have to mean that you've played in both regions, doesn't it.

Myke might be in the position to differ, but I doubt I would talk behind his back and be an asshole if I disagreed with his opinion.

As for those wondering about the player-to-monitor distance comment...just imagine watching an action movie from the front row and from somewhere in the middle. Which is the more difficult position to keep track of the movie from? That's my basic point.

As for Akira/Jacky...uhm, I've been saying all along that they were the top two in the game. (Now I think they're just top tier, instead of top two). And I don't have to point to Japan/Singapore/whatever, I had lots of trouble against Adam's Akira. I.e., that is why I was surprised that no one dominated with Akira here.

Seriously dude, it's shit like this that makes other people not want to post. Give it a rest, huh? If you want to disagree, fine, but don't turn everything into a flame fest. It's getting old, fast.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention this, but I have to give major props to this one Lion player today at Bugis. He wasn't technically all that good, and his Lion is two-dimensional like crazy, but he was damn effective. Fantastic okizeme, and the amount of pounces he gets away with is murder. When both characters are standing, his basic gameplay is d+P -> throw / D,f+P / d+P and of course, Lion's number of pokes (f,f+P, b,d/f+P, D/F+K+G, f,f+K+G -- I may have the commands wrong, I haven't played VF4 Lion yet). I think I had his Lion figured out towards the end, but he by far gave me the most trouble out of everyone today.

 

played a couple of games with 2 new unfamiliar guys from bugis today...wondering were they from here...glad to know there are more people playing vf4....in spore...had a fun time playing with them as well as laughs and awesome display of combos...

 

By the way I saw someone having a vf4 book today at bugis...wondering if its available here...would like to have a look at it...would like to get it as well...anyone with answers to that...i was the one playing Jacky anyway...

 

I dun think that Lion is really good. He plays almost Lion all the time. He should be better than that

Actually, the standard of play in Singapore has dropped since VF3. Not that much serious players. When I used to play seriously, I almost never used any other characters other than Lion so I can really get the sense of timing right. I mean things like punished whiffed moves which is so common in the past, is not seen so often.

 

There was also a guy using Lau.my Aoi had a hard time playing tat guy.Personally i think Lau has been beefed up alot in part 4,lotsa effective combos.I personally think Singaporean players used to use lots of low P when it first came out but as time passes people have found ways to combat against this tactic(one example: Alan's uncanny ability to can his knee on low punchers,and his Vanessa using the elbow thingy)so its more of punch-move-punch-move thingy.lotsa moving around.stay put and you will be thrown.been meeting people wif VERY fast reflexes in executing throws lately.(Alan's Wolf,a guy using Lau,Chris' Lei-Fei).but my Aoi had some good games today wif them =P
Must agree tat Lei-Fei is quite a tricky one to play against cause of his constant attacking style.But Lei-Fei dun seem to have a move which hits low.one of the few low attacks i saw was the low kick from the standing-single-legged stance(i dunno wat u call tat =P).Maybe tats Lei-Fei's onli disadvantage not having low moves to link his combos.

 

>Dude, I don't know why you're having such a cow.

Hey, you blind, retarded, arrogant FUCK - was I the only one speaking there? I hardly say anything, and the two lines could hardly be described as a "having a cow". Why is this entire rant of yours directed at me, you stupid bitch? Do you think I made it up, or posted this w/o the permission of the others?

> it's shit like this that makes other people not want to post.

What, the honest reaction of numerous people makes you not want to post? Shit dude, I should post the entire log, lots of good stuff there. And if it keeps you from posting, then I'll be celebrating, you mindless jackass.

 

actually,

I think the MC d+p will always be there. Anyone who refuses to use it will just be at a serious disadvantage. I do not know exactly if it guarantees a throw but it gives you such a good initiaitive and VERY safe and very High priority, all this makes d+p an excellent move.

I am using it less and less because MT venessa do not have one. One of her HUGE HUGE disadvantage. I mean Venessa has quite a number of moves that gives her initiative when blocked, a d+p (MC) throw is REALLY strong, esp when opponent do not know you have initiative and tries to attack. It is not a matter of err... honour or anything like that though...

 

OK, I think I see what your problem is. I have always thought of this forum as a "hang out" place for VF players. A place where VF players gather and talk about the game--anything from initial impressions, discoveries, tactics that they found effective, etc. Jamboree would just be a place to set up meetings.

You would rather have the Virtua Fighter section as a straight up strategy and combos type of forum instead, a la the ones to be found in Zaibatsu, etc., where anything VF-related that's not strategy/combos goes elsewhere. Is that accurate?

I had actually thought about posting in the Jamboree section, but did not because I had intended to add my gameplay thoughts/discoveries into the thread as I play more and more.

As for your points about my "direct statements," you ask not to argue semantics, but it really is just that. I regret not italicizing the "that" in the Jacky is not that powerful. I'm not blowing off what other people have said, but I do think a lot of complaints have been exaggerated. It's one opinion vs another.

Next time I'll be a little more sensitive not to rub people in the wrong way, but it's just a little ironic considering how any one who's talked to me and asked me about character balance, I had always responded that Jacky and Akira were the two strongest. Ask Adam, Nelson, Hiro, or Bryan.

with only one VFing session in Singapore (and not many in NYC) to back up these statements is wise, nor useful to anyone

Well, that was the whole basis of writing this: "Having so many challengers can give you so much of a better overall understanding of the game...because then you realize more generally what works and what doesn't." I mean, I was there for five straight hours and never played the CPU more than a few times. There were that many challengers. Throughout the day, perhaps more different players than I have played in the U.S. combined. I thought that background may be valuable. Maybe not.

Points 1 and 2 go against what most people have experienced first hand, and discussed at length, for a long while now.

OK, there were a number of posts about Akira. Jacky? Not more than a few passing sentences, a few posts at best. My memory could be off, but this is what I remember. Please don't criticize me for not keeping up with what's being discussed in IRC.

Point 5. Not sure where this is/was going. Was it an observation made from other people's Pai? Was it your own Pai? Are you really expecting a detailed reply on Pai strategies and tactics in a thread titled "Singapore, Bugis, VF"?

The purpose was to create an awareness, so people can start thinking about Pai and how one can play her in an interesting and effective manner. *Shrug*

- But to all of you people trying to learn Kage: GIVE UP AND PLAY SOMEONE ELSE!!

is practically useless, and potentially bad advice (IMO), to anyone outside of Singapore. Who are you, or I for that matter, to be telling people who to play or not to play? FWIW, the two most vocal Kage players around here are myself and uk-guy. I know Rich is playing him too, but probably hasn't gotten in as much play time as us, and also has to deal with Shang's Akira (poor bastard). Now, Kage doesn't appear to be a bandwagon character people are jumping on to warrant that "GIVE UP" line. But again, it looks like the message was aimed at the locals. Score another point to Jamboree. Oh, I won't even go into the comment you made about that Kage player's combo and how you thought he wasn't playing properly, or whatever.

OK, this one I don't really understand. The statement was a half self-deprecating, half-facetious, half off-the-cuff remark that certainly wasn't meant to be taken all that seriously. Perhaps I should've added /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/wink.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif to make that more clear.

Joysticks and distance from screen are separate issues. After seeing the likes of Llanfair meatplow, or Rich consistently TFT-Knee back in '97, or Brian Mak playing with any character I was totally convinced that the US-style Joysticks and button configuration are perfectly fine so long as you're used to them.

But, I wasn't talking about specific players or potential. I've played Adam lots, do you think I'd think he has slow reflexes?!

And sitting closer to the screen doesn't improve your reflexes, it only affects how much of the action you can focus in on at once.

That's exacly my point.

It may appear that the action is faster, and so you have to react quicker. But guess what? The game runs at the same speed, regardless of where you're sitting. If blocking Akira's PIT-ShRm with f+P+G must be done in X frames, are you telling me that the guy with his nose to the screen will block it more consistently than the guy sitting on the floor of his living room?

Well, think about it this way. If the attacker takes more time to attack as a result of the method of input (larger sticks, bigger buttons, bad button placement), the defender has a little more breathing time. Hence, Asian arcades promote faster reflexes relative to U.S. arcades, because the method of input is better.

It's like me saying 'Australians are, on average, faster swimmers than Singaporeans' The result of your observation is due to the average asian simply playing more than the average american (why am I even discussing this?) and nothing more.

Uhm, that was sorta my point, that on average the Singaporean arcade player has better reflexes than the average American arcade player, not just because of playing time, but also because of the arcade environment itself.

Same Ol' Bullshit: 4397 - Jamboree: 5 - Versus City: 1

Perhaps, but maybe in a week it would be Jamboree: 10 - Versus City: 20? Can't help you on the Bullshit.


You know, everytime that Kageo caricature thread comes back up, I always laugh and shake my head. I've been characterized as an excessively diplomatic, sensitive poster when clearly it seems that I am not diplomatic and sensitive enough. Just look at this thread and every thread that I've been flamed for. Had I only italicized one or two words, perhaps the flame could have been avoided altogether. Perhaps not.

On the whole, I think I understand your sentiments Myke, but I can't help but feel like a mountain is being made out of a mole hill.

 

p.s. Yes, you can roll escape inputs. Spotlite posted about it recently I believe.

Thanks, Spot posted it in context of the reversals, and I just wanted a quick double check to make sure it applied to throw escapes in general.