Singapore, Bugis, VF4

Re: VF4 Vanessa

The stupid black book seems to say that Venessa's f+p+k (MT) can punish low moves.... is it true??? I seem to have it missed quite a number of times. but it is a very good counter move for missed high moves. good damage. The f+p,p,k is more or less confirmed (misses sometimes vs heavies) then you take a step forward and LOOK if opponent tech roll. you can followup with a d/f+k if opponent doesn't tech roll. If opponent tech roll, I usually do f+p again or throw. VL's f+P+K hits high. Her Muy Thai f,f+P+K will punish low moves it hits Mid. oppo does lowpunch and is countered by f,f+P+K -> d/f+P->b,f+P+K-> throw or_> P,P,K . If low move misses because Vl is doing d/b,D/B,n,d/b then f+P+K may just work fine Alan. f+P+K-> f+P sets up more punishment. good battles! <a target="_blank" href=http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/VanessaVF4>http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/VanessaVF4</a>

 

Hey Alan,

just came back on bugis,

hey it is even crowded on tuesday evenings!! maybe it is the school holidays or something.

Hmmm, if that's the case, I might drop by tonight then...

regarding Leifei not being able to throw, well I just ate a throw from Lei after trying to dodge after blocking a p,p string which normally is a VERY GOOD idea. dunno how fast Lei can throw by pressing G,throw but it is an option for Lei.

!@#% there goes my theory...does it seem seamless? G to get out of stance -> throw, or is slow enough that you can defend on reflex?

Jacky's p+k,cresent,shuffle step is not strong. When you block the P+k you should always crouch under the cresent which will allow you to throw before the shuffle. Else a d+p (MC) is also a very good idea. but first you must block the p+k.

I'm probably a bit slow, but it seems like everytime I block the P+K I'm forced to also block the follow up crescent, and by the time I d+P Jacky is already SSing away. The throw sounds like a very good counter though, will pay attention to it next time I face a Jacky.

 

Mmmm.... I saw something interesting about Jacky's P+K. As a Jacky player, I don't think there is any constant strategy after guarding Jacky's P+K because there are always many choices for Jacky after opponent guards it. On the other hand, a good Jacky player will not abuse using P+K, and Jacky should use P+K mostly when it gaurantes to hit.

Just my opinion, no offense.

 

Sure, no problem, none taken, but there seems to be very few P+K guaranteed situations...seems a bit of a waste for such a high damaging, quick, and fairly reliable move.

Abusing a move is never wise in VF!

 

err... no guaranteed situations?

how about opponent whiffing a move? every character needs a quick long range and damaging move to punish the opponent. The beatnuckle is such a move I think. Better than venessa's f+p+k as it hits mid but seems slightly slower but it is fast enough.

I do not know what Jacky can do after a beatnuckle if he doesn't choose the canned combos. All the canned combos lead to high moves I think. If Jacky do not continue the combo I think the recovery time for beatnuckle is very bad right??

 

but there seems to be very few P+K guaranteed situations...

Um, beatknuckle is arguably the best and fastest mC tool in the entire game. Very few guaranteed situations? Go look at Daily VF4's kaeshi listings, there are a ton of BK counterable moves.

 

If you mix up the BK it's really hard to punish consistently...example:

P+K, K, SS
P+K, P, delay, d+K
P+K, P, dodge/d+P
P+K, P, K
P+K, delay, P etc.
P+K, G, elbow

That way, you can't just always crouch and mash on a throw...

 

Hey Chris, I wish I could...browsing among VFDC, ESPN, and checking my mail, I've been disconnected five times. Just loading this thread takes nearly half a minute. Movies, Japanese sites that need to be translated...ferget it, my modem can't take it!!

Check that: six times, grrrr.

But as for guaranteed situations...could you give us some examples? BK is definitely not faster than P right? It would be VERY strong if BK can counter moves like shoulder ram, knee, etc....

 

if you looked at your list, I think the only think that hit mid is the last one, elbow which requires you to recover from your beatnuckle. everything else can be thrown when ducked, especially the crescent, once you duck the crescent a throw is guaranteed. If you duck the backfist, you still have the advantage. Actually, I think a low+p is the best as it will interrupt almost all the moves that is coming out I think. never really tried it, though. I usually crouch and wait for the crescent.

 

I'm not sure about P+K, P, but in the case of Jacky's f+P, P, if you block his elbow and try to low punch, you won't be able to recover out of blockstun fast enough to execute the d+P... Jacky's followup P will hit you first. Similarly, it might be pretty difficult (or impossible) to duck under the P after guarding P+K in order to attempt a throw (but I'm not really a Jacky player, so I don't know for certain).

You're right about the opponent having the initiative after a blocked P+K,P though. But... if Jacky does a quick back dash or a dodge after P+K,P, and your d+P whiffs... it's BKC time...

 

BKC as a guaranteed mC tool... well, against Lau: PPPd+K / PPPb+K / Pb+PP / d+K+G / df+P+K (?) / DF+P,P+K / D+K,K are all BKC counterable.

According to Howard (segaduck), who plays a heckuva lot more Jacky than I do, P+K executes faster than (or at least equal to) f+P, so anything that's elbow counterable is pretty much BKC counterable. (Haven't verified this personally, though...)

Oh, the lightning straight (df+PPP) is a second option for an mC tool (if it hits on mC or MC, all 3 will connect plus a free pounce), but being a HHH move, you gotta figure out exactly when is safe to use it. =P

 

BKC has the same execution time as elbow!? !#@$^@#!!!!!

 

In VF3tb it was:

<pre>
attack execution time
in frames

elbow 11
kickflip 12
punt kick 13
beat knuckle 14
side kick 14
knee 15
</pre>
Beat knuckle is still fast enough to counter many things, but it isn't as fast as the elbow.

 

I'm pretty sure P+K beats out punt kick, side kick and kickflip in VF4. Unsure whether P+K has same exec frames as f+P, or one frame slower (or faster?), though...

 

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, it's been so long since I've played VF3, and I have not played enough VF4 Jacky to reliably compare the moves. Beat knuckle is damn fast in VF4, and I will not be surprised if it turns out that it's only 1 frame slower than his elbow when the frame stats are published.

Similarly, Sarah's kickflip has definately been slowed down, although the flamingo stance kickflip is as fast as ever. And we all know how Kage's elbow got raped and maybe his high punch too...

 

Wow, it's hard to believe how much VF4 I've gotten in the past couple weeks. Spread out daily, I should easily be able to average at least three hours a day. Anyway, a quick update on gameplay stuff and questions...


LAU

After blocking Lau's b,b+P, what's the best option to go for if he follows up with the TT d+P,P,P? I've been advised that dodging would work well, but I keep forgetting and I haven't seen anyone else do it either. You definitely cannot punch out the TT d+P...maybe quick elbow?


WOLF

b,d/f+P seems like it'll always stagger your opponent, a la Jeffry's f+K+G. Guaranteed throw opportunity, seems like.

Just in case you didn't know, for HCB+P+G > P+G, the stomp isn't guaranteed.


JEFFRY

It's amazing how much life MC knee > P > headbutt > pounce takes off for LWs...over 50%.


JACKY

Yup, you can most definitely throw Jacky out of his crescent > SS, and the timing's not that strict either.


SHUN

A sick but escapable combo sequence: u+K > D,f+P > d/f+P,P,K (PKG). I think I saw Leonard (the Singapore Maximum Battle champ) do a similar sequence but with a dodge.

Shun's dodge swipe will float on counter for at least a chouwan. A VERY good move.

Shun's recovery after f+K (or K from that stance) is incredibly fast...the P afterwards is a good choice. It'll combo if the K floats, and if the opponent tries to counter attack, the P will interrupt to allow Shun a back combo.


LION

Have you noticed how sometimes Lion's b,f+K+G > d+K will miss a grounded opponent? I've always thought it's because of late input, but Rulakir as an interesting theory: if you don't struggle (i.e. don't even press G) it'll miss completely. I can never remember not to struggle...anyone care to try the theory out when they get the chance?


AOI

I remember reading somewhere that a ground throw is guaranteed after one of her low throws...? Well, it's definitely not.

Her ground throw, however, seems to still be guaranteed after her D,f+P+G. At first I thought it wasn't, but if you input the ground throw with the fastest timing it seems unescapable. Certainly, no matter how hard I struggle, I've never been able to escape it.

Why do people call her b+P+K+G the "Yin-yang Stance?" She doesn't have any attacks from it, and her only move aside from inashi-ing is the special dodge. Wouldn't it be easier to just call it her inashi?


VANESSA

It seems like you cannot throw her in her dodging animation from her G,u G,d+P. The black book gives them different names, but as far as we know, aside from the different direction of dodge, are there any other differences between the two?

 

LAU

Reversal (i.e. db+P+K with Kage) or a dodge is all you can do. bb+P, K+G will nulify both though


WOLF
I think you have to hold the P to charge and make it stun, could be wrong though...


JEFFRY

Also try Knee - P - P - KKP, I think it's stance dependant though

VANESSA
Generally I think all canned dodge attacks IF done properly. I've seen people use the dodge P+K+G to get out of a guess throw situation, causing throw whiff from thrower. I remember blocking Wolf's rising kick, going for a throw and Wolf did dodge P+K+G. I whiffed, he got the grab and I was rung-out

BTW you can reverse Wolf's dodge P+K+G catch throw with b+P+G, although the timing is stricter than for 'normal' throw escapes. I think it is the only throw escapable 'catch' type throw in the game

 

Re aoi's aiki throw (D, f+P+G) into ground throw, it's not guaranteed because the opponent can TR.

It's called the Yin-Yang stance probably because it was called that by sega, and if not that then it's called that because it's a stance and it should have a name and this is the one everyone uses. And YY stance is easy to type. Feel free to call it the Daewoo inashi DPKG though.

Hee! just kidding.

 

Re: Aiki throw. So that's what I was missing, thanks (knew Hiro couldn't have made a mistake).

As for the YY, are you sure about that? I don't think Sega actually calls it a stance, and the Black Book labels it as "Tenchiinyou." The characters sort of mean heaven earth dark sun. The Yin Yang and stance seems like an interpretation.

I'll just call it YY or inashi, thanks. Inashi to signify intent or action to reverse, YY when Aoi is to hold position.

 

Phil, I know about b+P+Ging Wolf's catch throw; but I am wondering if you can also b+P+G the throw when the DA turns into a back throw instead?