So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

To people who have played past VF's(Veterans). What are your thoughts on VF5?

Do you feel its a superior game to VF4?

If you do like VF5, what do you think it does better than VF4?

I certainly don't. I've tried "adapting" and the game doesn't sit with me very well.

Your thoughts?

 

VF5 really felt awkward at first, after having played VF4: Evo on PS2 for so long.

However, the other day in the arcade I had a go at FT as the VF5 machine was in use, and the movement of the characters seemed so rigid and limited!

Aside from the movement options, I feel that the leap from VF4 to VF5 is not as great as the prequels before it, say the leap from VF1 to VF2, VF2 to VF3, and VF3 to VF4.

As for which one is the superior game, I still have a soft spot for VF4. It simply introduced so many neat stuff in to the engine. VF5 seems to be more an add-on than a full blown sequel.

Then again, VF5 has El Blaze..

 

I like VF5. Lets make that clear. I have played since VF2 (although I sucked in 2), so I have seen and played a lot of VF versions. The reason why I like VF5, well that may require some explaining.

For me, VF5 offers gameplay that is more varied and enjoyable than earlier versions. This is because I can use a larger repertoire of moves more safely, mesh defense with offense using the special properties of the moves, and be rewarded from movement which is one of my strong points. And of course the more varied repertoire of guessing games which I will explain below.

Addition of OM didnt change anything. Addition of throw clash made attacking with throw safer. Addition of 0-frame throw made attacking with throw stronger, and added one more expert element to the game for those who can use the delay to 0-frame technique. Making normal throws slower changed VF at fundamental level, since it allows the use of fuzzy guard in a lot more situations making the attacking a lot more 'safer' as a whole.

I think the throw speed is the biggest complaint from people who I hear compaining, but lets look into why this would be bad or good. Earlier there were very few situations where you could fuzzy guard, meaning nitaku was almost always present when an attack was blocked or opponent attack hit. This: rewarded those people who were able to do E-TTEGs etc, made nearly every attack a do-or-die situation for those who couldnt, guess correctly the nitaku. However, there was no throw clash, so defender could guess 1/2 and attack out of disadvantage.

What this created in practise: Not counting the experts who used advanced defense, most players would either turtle like their life depended on it, or abare like no tomorrow. Quite frankly, I didn't like that. Also the matches too often looked like
the players would keep on exchanging blows and noone actually defended much anything. Because practical defense was too hard and people chose just to abare most of the time (even those who knew what its about). Also there were more guaranteed counter opportunities also leading to more eaten attacks.

The most important change is the effect of fuzzy guard which is very basic form of defense now, and allows some measure of defense to relative beginners. I find this a good thing, it lessens the beginning of learning curve to VF. Now you can use some attacks while still in relative safety (or at least much safer than before). This makes the gameplay more balanced between attack and defense in my eyes, now its not all about abareattacking or no-brainer countering.

Of course, fuzzy is not invincible, or an and end to anything, it merely creates another level of guessing game. Depending on advantage you can beat them from crouchdash or low throw the CD, or hit them with low attack or throw them once they are back up. Now the attacker must predict the timing of opponent, provided they dont do the -6 'fixed' fuzzy which is very simple to defeat in theory. But of course you have to guess whether or not opponent will do the fuzzy in the first place... I like that there are so many levels of guessing games now. VF4 was too clear-cut to my liking.

Of course, there are plenty of situations where you have to use DTEGs, EDTEGs etc still. The old nitaku and reverse nitaku are still there, they just arent present in every situation. SO VF5 has created more new gameplay situations to which you have to react in a different manner. Without actually removing something completely. This in my eyes makes VF5 gameplay richer than it was before, right?

Fuzzy also makes the gameplay more enjoyable to watch now imo. Now theres some defense going on, and matches are decided on who reads their opponent better to defeat their defensive techniques. I had a lot of very enjoyable matches when I was in Sweden last weekend, I played against several people who you couldnt count on making any mistakes, in regards of fuzzy or EDTEGs, and I had to tactically beat them, predict their choices and attack patterns in order to win. I liked that very much.

To be honest I never understood why nitaku is such a big deal to some people. Its a mindgame. So are other situations, every part of the game is a mindgame. Its all about two minds fighting each other through the medium that is VF. I feel that those who complain about current situation are simply those who arent ready to adapt to more complex guessing games that VF5 has brought. Instead of just black and white, there are now shades of gray in between. I like that.

Also I have to mention, those people who complain about lack of nitaku, are iirc also people who analyze when abare is possible and maximum counter damage etc stuff. In my eyes they just want to make the game simpler, to reduce the need to 'guess' to a minimum. This tells me that they arent really interested about mind-games.. They are just being hypocritical.

DISCLAIMER: The above post is an opinion and my opinion alone. Also if I have made spelling/language errors you have to forgive me as english is not my native language.

 

Sounds like your saying you life VF5 because it's turtle friendly.
is this the nuts and bolts of it.

 

Its more like he's saying that VF5 is more of a chess game, rather being something closer to checkers.

 

VF5 is better than VF4, in my opinion, for many reasons but one of my personal favorites is just the polished look and feel of VF5. It's fun to play period, all VFs are, but the graphics and motion are just beautiful to watch. It has such a polished, well done look and feel that makes the game that much better. The graphics in VF5 finally live up to the level of the game play thats always been there in VF.

I think the game plays a lot like other VFs except the move lists are so varied now that the matches are even more exciting and unpredictable. Fighting games are like chess in that they are a one on one mind battle, like Majimaru said, through the game system. However, when you have enough moves for each character that different players can choose which ones they favor and which ones they don't use (or use very rarely) then you get opponents with very different styles, even if they use the same character.

So you could play five different Shuns and each one will probably have a fairly unique playing style and use different moves with a different frequency than the others. This makes you adapt so much more to who you are playing because basic "VS Shun" tactics may help, but won't always earn you a win by any means. This is an awesome aspect of VF5 because you never know what you're going to get once the fight starts. You might know you are playing Kage or Vanessa, or anyone for that matter, but you have NO idea HOW they are going to attack and defend (timing, moves, combos, set ups, ect.) to try to defeat you. You always have a rough idea of what they may try to do but it's up to you to adjust and out think your opponent.

 

Manji, clearly I'm one of the people who dislikes the VF5 changes, but I think you're missing several very important points:

1. Change in throw speed completely eliminated guaranteed throw situations. All characters get a guaranteed punch any time they have a guaranteed throw attempt (aside from theoretical mumbo jumbo about being able to waste exactly 10 frames). This change does in fact remove gameplay that was present in VF4

2. Change in throw speed is a big part of what allows people to quite literally run away from disadvantaged situations. You characterized VF4 as a turtle game, but how can this change in VF5 do anything but encourage turtling?


Aside from those technical points, your characterization of pro-nitaku folks as wanting to "reduce the need to 'guess' to a minimum" is mystifying. Nitaku means you need to guess. Lack of nitaku means you don't need to guess, because you can just run away.

 

Bitch about vf5 thread, knew this was coming lol

orly? I feel the same way in regards to 5, compared to 4 it feels really rigid and stiff, I couldn't imagine seeing any minami step at all in 5's current system.
Also 5 lacks a certain polish and solid feel to me cause the hit boxes are not up to scratch what you see is not always what you get, how about the range of those rising attacks eh?... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Guaranteed throws havent gone anywhere. Just because you can opt for guaranteed PK instead doesnt mean you are forced to do so. In addition, a throw doesnt need to be guaranteed to be effective. What else is it than yomi if you find the correct moment to throw opponent?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Change in throw speed is a big part of what allows people to quite literally run away from disadvantaged situations. You characterized VF4 as a turtle game, but how can this change in VF5 do anything but encourage turtling?
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They arent running away as there is no 100% safe defensive technique. If you can't see the options its not my problem.

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Aside from those technical points, your characterization of pro-nitaku folks as wanting to "reduce the need to 'guess' to a minimum" is mystifying. Nitaku means you need to guess. Lack of nitaku means you don't need to guess, because you can just run away. </div></div>

You can see things in whatever light you choose. My bottom line was that in a situation where basic nitaku no longer exists, there exists another guessing game in its stead. In theory, even a neutral situation is a guessing game of sorts. A disadvantaged situation is always a situation where defenders options are more limited. But never can they 'run away' 100% safely.

 

They're different games.

I just liked Evo way more.

The addition of new characters, the changing of character sizes (and hit boxes), the tiers, Akira's Kage throw, bouncing, and throws/clash make my current VF experience from being "FUCKING AWESOME!" to just "something to do on the weekends with people you like, but never to take it seriously."

Sure some characters changes are nice (*ahem* DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifMC/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) but if Jeffry can't /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at high disadvantage and beat throw... wtf? (Haha! Eat that Sin#!)

Graphics > everything else?

It isn't that much more "varied." They just added 2 characters, revamped Brad, and gave everyone a few new moves and maybe a stance (Vanessa, lol).

I hate this analogy. Chess is too slow.

VF/FGs are basically Worms X10 (Worms kicks ass).

This is unique to VF5 how? (or VF for that matter)

 

I couldn't agree with manjimaru more. I also don't understand the big deal with nitaku... it's not actually a choice, that is, things like ETEG beat both the mid and throw... you always needed larger disadvantages to prevent someone from "running away", KoD, I guess it's just more obvious in VF5.

Lack of VF4s guaranteed throws actually really confused me when I first picked up VF5. But back in VF4, all you were doing, was forcing your opponent to input a throw escape. I don't see the loss of them as a big deal, especially compared to all the advantages that manji mentioned regarding throw speed. And, you're describing it the wrong way, KoD... guaranteed punches existed in VF4 too, that didn't change. And, since the punch is actually guaranteed, those are still valuable situations. It feels like a red herring to me... that is, throws were never "guaranteed", just throw attempts. And again, the removal forces throws to be used as mind games now, as guaranteed throw attempt situations in VF5 allow punches, which really are guaranteed damage. I guess throw clashes are the balance against the removal of guaranteed throw attempts... they make throw attempts safer, the whole thing just feels like they made the mind games that exist more obvious to a new player. I suppose another way to put it is... there's now a choice given between a guaranteed low damage punch, and an escapable high damage throw, and we all seem to agree that choices are good.

OM, I guess wasn't a big gameplay change, but I still think it added a lot to the game. One of the first things I noticed in VF5, was that suddenly side throws and side-turned attack situations were way, way more common. That means more moves you can use, more moves to learn to defend against, and a lot more motion around the stage floor by both players. It's not adding any depth necessarily, but it's one of those details that makes the game seem a lot more fun.

And, Sugar Man, what were you trying to say? Manji's point was that VF5 reduced people playing at the two extremes of complete turtle, or completely abare. It's actually extremely difficult to effectively turtle in VF5, because of many of the things stated here.

 

" It's actually extremely difficult to effectively turtle in VF5, because of many of the things stated here."

w
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I disagree vf5 is all about turtling more so then the previous ones

 

Q
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Am I wrong? Assuming you're obviously, and exclusively turtling, how many ways are you going to die? You're opponent can stick with safe strings, knowing you'll wait for punishment opportunities, which will never come. They can guard cancel into a throw knowing that you're just standing there blocking everything.

Just about every exchange in this game is a guessing game... if you always back dash and hold guard, your opponent no longer has to guess, and then you can expect to lose in short order.

I do actually agree with Sebo as well.. it's not clear the game actually benefitted at all from bounces. Just seems to make recovery timing unnecessarily hard, in my opinion. And lol at all the people not making good comments, and how he picked them apart.

 

Well, to begin with a sum up: There are things I like, there are things I don't like with VF5.

VF4: Final Tuned is possibly the best fighting game ever made. At least the best I've ever played. Then again, most of us come directly from predominantly playing VF4: Evo, so I'll use that as a comparison.

I like the way movelists have been fleshed out in VF5, many characters are simply much more fun to play now and it's nice to see no one is as retardedly bad as an Evo Goh or Brad. The addition of specific hit effects when hitting an opponent in the side feels like a logical addition, and it has produced some neat and unique gameplay situations. OM though feels like a work in progress. OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is a great move, but the actual evasive properties of OM is just too inconsistent in the world of VF.

The things I don't like with VF5 is that Sega have made a lot of changes for the sake of change rather then for the sake of improvement. Some changes amount to be the same thing as before, just moving an inch to wrong side of the line. Like the throw system now, I felt that just keeping throws 8f in exe would have fixed a lot of what irks me about VF5. Also, it's strange to see that after nerfing the backdash just right in FT, they denerfed it to about what it was in Evo. I wish more moves gave nitaku.

Then again, I feel people here are exaggerating a lot of the flaws in VF5 while at the same time overromanticising how Evo was. I mean....jesus, there was so much stupid shit in Evo. Evo Kage....let's stop there. And for people saying nitaku started at +3....no. It started at +6. Things like VIP (which really wasn't hard to do) basically eliminated all things nitaku up to -5.

The payoff from evades was ridiculous. You could evade a simple standard midkick and sometimes punish with knee class launchers. Moves like Yoho, Dragon Cannon, Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif only punishable with jab....Akira being able to take half your life with a knee and only risk being punished with a throw. Characters could rely on much fewer moves then they can do now.

Now, I loved Evo as much as the next fellow, but hey, let's get back to earth shall we. And let's stop looking at things in black and white and start looking in shades of grey. I think VF5 is a great game, although you can feel it's a work in progress. Whether Sega cares or realizes what needs to be fixed, I don't know. But the game is very enjoyable right now, and I'll go on record saying I like it more then VF4: Evo....but not as much as Final Tuned.

Also...it's funny that the wave of bitching about VF5 started at the same time the game went online....say it with me people: Making assumptions based on online gameplay is retarded.

Making assumptions based on online gameplay is retarded.

Making assumptions based on online gameplay is retarded.

Making assumptions based on online gameplay is retarded.

Making assumptions based on online gameplay is retarded.

 

Thats one side of the coin. The other viewpoint is that you can also attack more aggressively because you are safer when blocked. Everybody can choose how they play.

 

effective turtling in this game requires minimal effort with maximum reward,
while to beat it takes more effort/energy from the pro active player,
it has nothing to do whether mind games are involved or not. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

both are hardly good things though? :? safer moves and more turtling are the new things to the table? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

p.s I think a healthy discussion about 5's merit's or lack of is fine, I think people were "bitching" long before online though..