So, what makes a Character Newbie Friendly?

I'm still pretty confused about this... What exactly makes a character Newbie Friendly? Easy to use? OVerpowered? What is it?
Here's a nice little list that Ice-9 made. You can find it here at the site, but I just pulled the stuff that I'm asking about it.

Easy to Play
Pai, Lau, Wolf, Sarah, Jacky, Lion, Vanessa (MT)

Upside Depth
Akira, Wolf, Jeffery, Kage, Shun, Lion, Aoi, Lei Fei, Vanessa (DS)

Tech Control
Akira, Wolf, Jeffery, Sarah, Shun, Aoi, Lei Fei, Vanessa (DS)

You'll notice that Sarah is listed as Both easy to play, and under Tech Control. This confused me a bit, because I've always thought Easy to use=easy commands.
Can someone clear this up for a Super Newbie?

 

Well, if you look at the example Jeff's given you, along with some Combos and the character's Command List, it pretty much explains itself:

Sarah: Sarah basically has only a few "difficult" commands, her 2 270 Throws and her Hit Throws. Even these aren't really hard once you practice a little, Jeff could be referring to using the Flamingo well... I'd actually say that the advanced use of Sarah is more in the "Upside Depth" than "Tech Control" category, because it seems to me more about learning all the best combos for the different launchers/weights/hit types (Sarah has a lot).

Aiside from this, if you look at the list Jeff gave you, who's in "Easy" that's NOT in "Tech" or "Depth":

Lau, Pai, Jacky (& Sarah, almost). This goes right with what I've always thought: the "Family" characters, Bryants & Chans, are the easy to use all-rounders, with plenty of Speed AND Power.

They're beginner-friendly because the commands and combos are easy to execute, they have a lot of good poking moves that are relatively safe (these allow you to chip away damage without even knowing how to do combos or throws, "Button Mash" if you will), good damage throws, High, Mid and Low Full Spin Kicks (Lau has no Mid spin kick). They have it all, and the player doesn't need to mentally "sweat" missing a command/combo.

On the flipside, characters like Jeffry, Vanessa and Goh are very easy to manipulate, but to play them effectively requires a lot of knowledge about the game, specifically understanding the importance of Yomi between an Attack and a Throw in a "Nitaku" situation.

If you're asking this for yourself, and want to jump in with the best all-rounder that requires the least of you, I'd recommend Lau.

Spotlite

 

But what would be the advantage of using a Harder Character, Like Jeff and Akria, be vs. an Easier character? Do the more Complex characters simply have more options in any given situation? Or are they more Specialist Orientated, able to excel at something and be very powerful in that area?
Like Aoi, she focuses on Reversals. If you know your Reversals, then Aoi can really rock, and with Akira, if you know how to SPoD and DLC, you've got some really powerful attacks there. Something not easily rivaled.
The question as well, is about when I play any fighting game. I'm good at them. I'm not great. Far far FAR away from being great. But I can't beat most of friends, no problem. Whenever I win, they always call my character for newbie’s, and not hard to use. And it's true; I usually gravitate towards those characters. Saberwulf from KI, Cassandra from SC2, and Lau from VF4.
I mean, this isn't just a question about VF4, sure I'm using that as an example, but I'm asking about Fighting Games in General.

Wow, I'm the most Vague person in the world.

 

At a beginner level, some characters (lei fei, jacky) are much better than others (akira, goh). But as your skill develops, and you learn more about the game, some characters you will have to know a lot about (you got it right with Aoi, how to deal with very specific situations with a range of abilities), while others have a much easier set of options that work well in a wide variety of situation (wolf, knee/throw setups).

At an expert level, there is no easy character.

If you ask me, though, what makes a character easier or harder is how well it fits your style. I've seen people who start playing on goh, and just hate him and can't work well with him, while others take to him and learn how to play him very well while advancing.

 

Hey Rhycore, thanks for reading my article. To answer your question, there are basically a few things that make a character "newbie friendly":

- Ease of executing attacks. Akira isn't typically considered newbie friendly since the player must have a good command of the stick to pull off some of the moves, combos, and the ST -> SP throw.

- Plethora of "safe" attacks that can be used as staple attacks. Jeffry can't really be considered newbie friendly either since his attacks are mostly slower and have bad recovery. He gets great damage in return, but newbies don't usually know how to inflict damage efficiently and defend well.

- Simple "game plan." Sometimes it's just easy to tell how a character is meant to be played. For Jacky, you can employ a generic game of knowing the two or three guaranteed counters, the elbow/back-dash guessing games, etc. to be effective. For Vanessa, you have to know her character-specific strengths to be good.


As for my old character selection article, I would cite different examples for each attribute today than I had then, but to explain the three attributes referenced:

"Easy to Play - Pai, Lau, Wolf, Sarah, Jacky, Lion, Vanessa (MT)." This list was my old view on your question.

"Upside Depth - Akira, Wolf, Jeffery, Kage, Shun, Lion, Aoi, Lei Fei, Vanessa (DS)." This is more about how a character changes the more you play the character. Someone who plays Jacky on day 1 will likely play him similarly on day 100. Not true for Aoi.

"Tech Control - Akira, Wolf, Jeffery, Sarah, Shun, Aoi, Lei Fei, Vanessa (DS)." I would definitely take Jeffry out of this list, but really this is just about how challenging the character's commands are.

 

Ah, so THAT's makes a Newbie Character...
But, in VF4 at least, the Characters start to become less important, and it goes on to your skill... I see now.
Obviously, VF4 is a deep game for that to occur -- can that same Idea be applied to most fighting games? Hmmm.... I think it can.
Thanks! I'm pretty sure I get it now!
Now if only I could improve my skills... Oh well, Practice until the Cows come home, I suppose.

 

I think for the most part, Ice-9's comments apply. I do find some things intriguing though. I think it's important to define what the term NEWB really encompasses when you're trying to formulate a model to describe the characters. I think a minor variation of the meaning of newb can greatly affect the way these characters are categorized. For example, I personally think there are these kinds of levels of newbs.

1) Complete button mashing, where they do not press a combination buttons or hold down a button, and thus would never do any throws, never guard, and would never execute over 50% of the movelist. This is mostly done by kids.

2) Someone who knows some of the movelist, like the ones printed infront of the arcade cabinet. Have some sort of understanding of guarding and throwing.

3) Someone who plays alot of fighting game, have a general understanding of the flow of a 3D fighter, and relies on this knowledge with limited understanding of the intricate details of the VF engine.

4) Someone who owns the home version and knows the movelist for most every character, and attempts the challenge mode, tutorial, and have a limited understanding of frames. (Not real detail, but for example knows certain moves are throw counterable.) This person plays vf fairly regularly and maybe with friends.

So when you take into account of these classifications, you can't have the same list to apply for each of them.

For example, lau, and pai for good for people in group 1. But probably wouldn't work very well with people in group 4. Wolf and jeffry wouldn't work well in group 1 since they lack long strings, but would probably work well in group 3 for their high damage potential and throws. (Their opponent would not likely to break throws.) With people in group 3 and 4, the chans might not work very well. Specifically lau's main staple combos requires stace watching. In the same group, people may have more luck with say jeffry, cause of the sheer dmg potential. One of the biggest newb friendly character is leifei imo, for obvious reasons. In general, all the female character aside from vanessa would be fairly newb friendly because of their speed. In the realm of mid weights, jacky, akira, goh would work fairly well with people in group 3 or 4. Despite them being considered hard to use in general.

Without going into tons of theories and details, since I'm lazy, I'm going to just say that speed in general is the number 1 factor for newb character. Next is dmg potential, and throw dmg. Speed is most important because if people can't react or decide what's the best counter to use, speed will be able to dominate an opponent like that. Next is dmg, because those characters can win with just a few MC hits. All in all, the point i'm trying to convey is just that you have to decide which category of newb you are looking at before deciding which character is newb friendly.

 

There's two advantages to playing hard characters:

Dexterity-Playing someone like Akira can pump up your all important video games muscles. Timing is always gonna being an issue in fighting games. After cranking out continuous crouch dashes, SPoDs, and Knees something like triple throw escape ain't so hard. You can jump right into learning the new top secret expert tricks because you've already been properly trained hand wise.

Mental-Playing harder characters makes your mental game better. It's not good to play idiot characters like X in SC2 or Cable in MvC2 all the time because it can make you lazy. These are the kinds of characters who make you believe you're doing something but in actuality the character itself is just plain scary in practically any fool's hands. Harder character's force you to think about your game more, study the game more, force you to dig deeper into your own bag of mental tricks, and that's always a good thing. Your mind gets accustomed to working hard when you play and that's perfect because that's what high level play is all about.

 

I'm a relative VF noob, but I've been playing fighters pretty much most my life (like most here), and imho, there is one really big plus in playing the harder to use characters.

It's just more fun.

I think the previous posts in this thread already point to this. Not saying that Jacky is necessarily boring, but there's only so much of his mixups that you can do, before you get somewhat tired of them. The problem is, those limited mixups are pretty effective as they are. Then you get a character like Aoi, who has a ton of mixups, but not one of them are effective and easy to apply as Jacky's. So you gotta think more when you use Aoi. This, to me, translates into fun.

 

Srider's point is absolutely spot-on. By "newb friendly" I was probably thinking more of newb types 3 and 4. In addition to Srider's segmentation, I would also layer in player style (some are better at poking then counter-trhowing) and the style of opponents (what type are they?).

 

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For Vanessa, you have to know her character-specific strengths to be good.

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Could you give some examples, please?

 

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American_Pai said:

Mental-Playing harder characters makes your mental game better. It's not good to play idiot characters like X in SC2 or Cable in MvC2 all the time because it can make you lazy. These are the kinds of characters who make you believe you're doing something but in actuality the character itself is just plain scary in practically any fool's hands. Harder character's force you to think about your game more, study the game more, force you to dig deeper into your own bag of mental tricks, and that's always a good thing. Your mind gets accustomed to working hard when you play and that's perfect because that's what high level play is all about.

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Mostly agree. But, when you play VF in a good competition it doesn't really matter what character you use. Chances are your brain has to work non-stop and your mental game has to function all day. Yeap, that's VF.

 

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maddy said:

Mostly agree. But, when you play VF in a good competition it doesn't really matter what character you use. Chances are your brain has to work non-stop and your mental game has to function all day. Yeap, that's VF.

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Yeah I know everybody in VF has to work their ass off to win. A lot of this because of how the engine checks and balances itself. Every technique has a practical counter that can really get you torn up if you guess wrong. It's not something like SC2's step where it has more payoff than risks.

 

Sure, thanks for asking.

In DS:
- Doesn't have a 12-frame punch, and needs to think about countering differently
- Doesn't really have a 14-frame "elbow"
- Her sabaki is unique in use and application
- Her and are "weird" to execute but very useful
- Has a great move in that nobody else in the game has
- Low throws are catch throws

In OS:
- is one of her most important moves, strong in a way that is unique and also has a weird command (and Jacky is the only other character with a move that is even mildly useful)
- Entry guessing games into mount unique to Vanessa
- Low throws are catch throws

Overall, I think Vanessa is much easier to play in OS than DS simply because a lot of the skills you learn with other characters (Jacky, Brad, etc.) are applicable to OS...whereas in DS, she really is quite different from everyone else.

 

Does that mean that you think she is tougher to play with in DS compared to OS, and if so/if not, why?

Because of the lack of a normal punch and a normal elbow? Sounds resonable - I've never thought of it like that...

 

For me, it's tougher to play DS than OS well because I come from a Kage background. In some respects, OS is pretty much Jacky on offense (with a few wrinkles) and Brad on defense.

For a stance that is supposed to be "defensive," Vanessa's DS counter options are awfully limited. What does she have? A good but not great throw game for 8 frames. Small damage for 10 frames. Short range and limited for 15 frames. , or sidekick to punish blocked sweeps? These are awfully bad. If it wasn't for + to play guessing games with, there'd be little to no point to guard with DS...better to use the sabaki and her special dodge attacks.

But for a "fresh" player learning VF, DS might actually be easier because of her . I've seen effective Vanessas who don't have very good reflexes, execution, or knowledge of the game and still win on the basis of backdash, : hit -> okizeme / block -> reverse nitaku alone.

Nevertheless, the beauty of Vanessa is that she can accomodate almost any style with her two stances. The skill is not getting confused while switching stances in a given match.

 

Okay I'm speaking as a newb to the VIrtua Fighter series, but I have played a lot of other fighting games so I know what I'm talking about. A good player for newbies in generally any fighting game has a lot of uncomplicated combos (for example, Brad's + followed by works on any computer controlled player up to probably 10th Dan, by then a player shouldn't be so much of a newb anymore). So a good newbie character should offer a player enough good easy to pull off moves that they cna be used a lot in matches as a player starts to learn deeper parts of the game.

 

OS is somewhat easier to play in, but I actually do prefer DS in many cases. Her minor reversals are handy for different situations, her full spinning mid which is not GG, and her subakes are all reasons I would choose DS, but in the end OS is much faster, offensive and better to play for poke poke.

 

I've found that my staple attacks in DS are
Yeah, I know it's weak, punishable, and slow. It also works because of the threat of followup strings.
The sit down kick is great to poke at med range, and ccan be thrown on to almost ANY combo for a quick final hit before they touch land.
It's just tight, need I say more. Hit those TR'ing bastages right when it counts, free backstagger. Crouch stagger. Overall: Tight
Full circ, 25 damage, great range. Un-combo-able, but nice nonetheless.
+: This is the MOTHER OF ALL PUNISHERS. If your opponent is in the habit of wakeup attacks, just whip this badboy out on em: Knock em down, backdash, + hits them recovering from a rising attack, and you get a free stomach crumple. Punish with lowthrow if they dont do low throw escapes, or with her , combo.

Her DS is pretty nice, but a lot of the attacks are SLOW. Since it's her default stance, that kinda hurts her game a bit because you have to find a situation where you can get time to change to OS if you need it. Usually that means sacrificing guaranteed damage /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

She's hard to use though. I'm starting to understand how her 2 stances work against different opponents, and so far (I think) her DS works really great against Jacky.