so who thinks....

andy. what players do in japan DOES NOT ARBITRARILY DETERMINE HOW THINGS SHOULD BE. that is just one group of players and their preferences. it's a significant group, but one which attention should not be overpaid to.

also your approach that because the japanese play mainly in single mode does not reinforce your idea that single mode is the way it was meant to be. that it up to the designers, who bothered to develope it, sell it, etc. ie cigarettes are meant to be smoked through the mouth, but myself and anyone else can smoke them through the ear or asshole if so prefered. also, tb is the default setting when the game starts up cold.

 

why?

 

The term "meant to be" was probally missused in my previous statement. It should of said "I prefer" but now that I think about it it sounds like I am bitchin out so I will defend my previous comment. I just think it would lead to a better game if 4-6 people all playing their best character went against each other instead of 2 people each playing their main character and 1-2 of their secondary characters.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

with arcade vf3 it was something like this (assuming you were in a good area to play, ie boston, toronto, midwest, etc): go to arcade. play game. meet [new] people. have fun. maybe get involved in net vf world.

with home consoles it's now kinda like this: know of and be involved in the active net-vf community - this is now almost a completely vital prerequisite if you ever want to meet anyone, and i think that sucks. try to set something up. play the same old people over and over. fun decreased. highly crappy inbred play habits and style developes - meet no new people, or only very very rarely.*

*this is/was just as possible at the arcade (any location, especially as vf3 arcade was pissing away), but i think it happens on a much larger, more painful scale when it's a small group playing bullshitting around for hours and hours and hours with no money and less ego to keep you going.

and you could argue that the home version might encourage new players to continue to learn the game moreso than the arcade scene, as there are no quarters involved and mercy rounds might come easier. however, if a person needs to be that inclined, that babied through learning vf, he's probably a really awful player.

the point GE brought up earlier is important as well, however the whole scene, the whole direction of arcade community is more important to me. i think arcades are more fun, more dynamic. you can meet new people that don't have to have contacted you first through the net. you can come and go as you want, play other games, blah blah blah blah and so on.

 

Actually the way I wrote my post, I was trying to avoid that exact comment that you made. I knew that someone was going to thikn Well just cause the japanese do it...doesnt mean thats the way it has to be...I agree with that...What I meant was the largest group of people still playing prefer to play single characters in teams...that seems to be the trend for competition...Really though take for instance your Kage, I'm guessing that he's your most competative charcter and the one that would give people the most challenge....It doesnt mean that you cant play other characters or that TB doesnt have it's own element of strategy...I think Tekken Tag and DOA implemented a form of Team play that adds a distinct touch to the formula since you can switch characters in the middle of the round...KOF and like VF3TB I think its more of a fun element which is why during competative play I prefer singles...or teams of singles

CrewNYC

 

Nah its not the load time...of course the load time does kill the momentum, but if the load time were present in singles version....I would still play singles when I got serious...I want to give my opponent the best challenge I can, and to do that I have to play my pai or Jacky...I simply wouldn't be able to give a good (competative good)challenge otherwise...Also those opportunities to stage a 3 round comeback when im 2 rounds down with the same character...sometimes I'll change up or wise up to how someone is defending my moves...I cant do that if suddenly I have to go from Pai/Jacky to another character....

CrewNYC

 

argh..i'm going to have to go on a reduced kage diet. i _can_ win with other characters, goddammit (right GE? right? huh? huh? c'mon dude back me up here).
but that's why i like tb mode. i keep kage as "anchor". i can have fun and try to kick arse with the other characters, and if i don't do well with them i've got him there at the end. it's more fun for me, and it's hopefully more fun for others as i'm not boring the shit out of them with my kage the whole round, and hopefully more learning and enjoyment comes out of it altogether.

 

To be honest, I'd rather fight Rich's Kage than his Wolf or his Jeff. Really. The last time we played, his skill level had increased immensely with other characters and he was, imo, a menace. The times I actually won, few and far between, were when I would get down to his Kage anchor.

I think a lot of where you're coming from, Andy, is that you've played much of the same character since day 1. And you've played against Adam who rarely chose outside of Akira. Now is different with you moving to Jacky and Adam with his Wolf, etc. From the beginning of VF3 many of us here in Toronto played 2 or 3 characters - and practiced them all. I'll use myself as an example. I consider my Akira and my Lion to be competitive - but like Rich, I consider my Kage to be my anchor. Depending on who I'm playing, I'll have varying degrees of success with different characters. Sometimes my Kage will be strongest, other times my Lion will give another a hard time, etc.

I have to disagree with the notion that to be competitive and focused, one should choose one character. I think it's harder to beat people who have teams of characters. When one character is chosen, imo, this gives me 3 whole rounds to figure that character out and, hopefully, find weaknesses to exploit. With 3 or more different characters switching between rounds this becomes very difficult to do. It gives me less time to change and to adapt to my opponent. From the other side, if I was playing just one character and I get pummelled, this is an indication to me that my opponent has figured me out. Having a different character to use the next round, to me, is a blessing - a change that makes it harder for my opponent to predict what I'm going to do.

cheers,


<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

OKie dokie, time to relax and take a long shower...I did not mean that as a personal attack, but more of a observation of attitudes here from the last year {though they have improved} From what I notice, we consider Tekken players to be scrubs mostly, or scrubs flock to that game, and most Tekken players think of virtua fighter players as people stuck somewhere in development or snobs....on that - I just think that a lot of us {hell, me included} have pre-determined views on other games.

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

here's the thing....

First of all...I'm replying to a bunch of threads in
no particular order.

Here's something that we used to ask ourselves in
University (didn't matter what we were discussing)
when we were in the middle of a debate--and this
is a useful tool: "Show me where it says this in
the text" or "does the text support that?"
You know what the text is in the argument for or
against single character? The game. And guess
what, kids? The game's name is Team Battle.
Anything outside of the text is speculation.

Llany brought up a good point which I think
deserves re-adressing. All this bullshit
about people only being able to be good at
one or two (max) characters. First of all,
this reductionist, crippled way of looking
at things is really depressing. You want
to set limits on your own potential, I'm
cool with it but steer clear of me with that
crap because I will always seek to bust
that envelope wide open. Llany mentioned
that the toronto crew never restricted
themselves to one character. Not just VF3
mind you but allll the way back to the
beginning.

VF in Toronto was magnifically social. We'd
hook up and play in the arcade until they
kicked us out, then we'd kick back, chat,
find all night chinese food places, sleep
over, wake up and do it all over again.

When we had the saturn and VF2 at our
disposal with arcade sticks (yah!) we still
ended up at the arcade. Why? because that
was where the people were. Fuck the game.
The game was second place to who surrounded
it. VF was social.

Even (and this is the important part) when
we competed and competed fiercely, even when
everything was on the line and coming down to
one last low punch or elbow. We were there
to have fun. Fun, for us, was never ad
nauseum line ups or making other players feel
bad (as Shota has admitted to doing). Fun was
meeting up with individuals with like interests
and jamming with them. Maybe its all a difference
in gaming culture.

And you know what? Rich's Taka and Wolf are mondo
strong. Johnson plays an incredibly skilled Taka
and the meanest, most precise Pai I've seen. Clem
plays out Jacky, Jeff and Taka and each are deadly.
I hate Llanfair's Kage and Lion equally. Do they
play any of their chosen characters better or
worse? I'd say they play each differently.

GE

 

My rant..................................

"when it's a small group playing bullshitting around for hours and hours and hours with no money and less ego to keep you going"

Dont know about the group of people you play with when playing on DC, but EVERYTIME we play, even though there is no money involved - we play as if there IS money involved, and egos are in abundance dooood.

I just guess for us here, it is mostly about total competitiveness, and if friendships develop, then that is cool also (this is in regards to meeting new players). All i care about with this game is to hone my akira skills to the fullest - learning to play AGAINST every character with my Akira. Sorry, dont have any interest in being a "jack of all trades and master of none" (so to speak).

Regarding something Llanfair said about the opponent figuring one out if one plays the same character over and over again - thus bringing about the need to play with other characters as to "throw off" the opponent. If I lost cause of a "hole" or "difficiency" in my game the previous round, then i want the opportunity to learn from it and correct it with Akira. I strive to play with not a particular style or habit (its hard and i havent succeeded, yet) that an opponent can wise up to. I will always strive to play in a way described by Bruce Lee regarding his view on fighting style - being like water taking the shape of any container that it is poured into. Its fukkin corny of me to say, i know, but that is where i want to take my Akira (however difficult) - killing habits and tendencies altogether, and just fighting according to what is going on screen. This OBSERVATIONAL style of playing is what i feel is sorely lacking amongst people i've played here IN NORTH AMERICA. You can groan and roll your eyes all you want when i mention, that this is why Japanese players are significantly ahead of the VF mastery curve. If you had seen what i saw in the Beat-tribe tournament (from preliminaries to final) and PAID ATTENTION to what was going on screen, you too would desire to reach that level of mastery with 1 character - let alone 3 or 4 characters. It was that insane - the Kage who won was unreal. No doubt a product of total commitment and concentration.



<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by adamYUKI on 2/13/01 06:30 PM.</FONT></P>

 

Re: here's the thing....

As I see it, there are different philosophies governing the preference of mode. Perhaps many factors added, but it seems the strongest factors are in culture and what mode you are used to playing from the beginning (at least for the single player mode fans) and your philosophy on improvement (which really is an extension of culture imo).

My preference? Team Battle. Certainly, I am no expert, but the pure enjoyment of the game and challenge is in multiple characters. I did have to choose one at a point to be somewhat competitive. But then eventually, I had to choose others to learn (to fight as or fight against or at least understand).

My impression of Japan is that its culture emphasises focusing on one thing and maximizing that. Re-engineering and re-processing the whole process of one focus. Perhaps it is changing now, but I get an impression it sticks with arcades. I always hear of a certain character master, but I don't hear about them using any other character. I'd like to hear about it if that were the case. I'm not using that argument as a support for one character only. I think it reflects a mentality or a culture more than other things.

Shota's moved from Lion, to Jacky, back to Lion, and now has a Lau up to par with his Lion/Jacky or so it seems. Of course he admits to being something like second tier in Japan, but his potential for the game is something I really believe in (and the same goes for the NY crew, Rich, etc...). We're just all stuck in the US and the North American VF population has boundaries between them.

I do not doubt the level of ability in Japan. The competition, enthusiasm, and focus towards the game makes the scene so powerful. However, I feel that the focus of one character is not so much out of necessity (unless you count perhaps a quick discouragement necessity), as it reflects a philosophy regarding reaching one's potential. "I have my job, I'll have this job forever, I'll be the best in my job, this one job, etc..." of course that doesn't seem to be really representing modern Japan (from reports I hear, it sounds like the modern business environment in Japan is starting to sound like the US, with the exception of the traditional figurehead of the company resigning his position when the company's status goes down--look at Square last week for instance). But it seems to be a mentality that extends the traditional culture.

I think at least in many areas of the US, in these times, our loyalty to ourselves convince us that we can often take on the big picture. Move on from career to career, exercise a potential unfounded, and achieve many things superiorly. Well, for the majority I'll admit it turns into a sort of flash in the pan in every department. But out of it arises an occasional phenomena (master) that can certainly handle many situations and many roles (characters in VF).

Anyways, that's just on my mind right now. Probably sounds whacked to some and interesting to others at this point.

On a side note, Rich has a great point in arcade scenes and culture. I still feel that competitive and team games are best in the arcade environment and no console can substitute all aspects (bad and good) that exists in arcades. I think everyone knows this, but it's still a good point to make. Besides, aren't you sick of all the scrubs who will say they'll kick your ass at Tekken because they beat the computer only using Wind God Fist? Or the ones that feel that being able to SPOD makes them a certified Akira master? Or even *cough* being able to do the TKoD makes them a master of Jeffry? Anyways...

 

This is a question, not a challenge.

It also probably goes more towards Shota, but anyways. How much of the Japanese play with a full knowledge? Is their knowledge of VF considered to be absolutely complete, or is VF just that full of intricacies? In competition are they playing with complete knowledge of each other? Or are there still the occasional tricks of exploiting something that was not known in the other player (usually based on preconceived notions of what is weak or impractical)?

Just curious. I guess that's the difference between high level and lesser levels of play though. On my level, I'm not at all high-level. So far, I have to play on the basis of what my opponent doesn't know and that's why I can't consider myself a high level player at all. I figure on the high(er) levels in the US, you guys are playing on shared knowledge, things you guys know in and out, off and on screen (major difference between knowing something and acting it out on screen). As Rich even mentioned to me, Kage might seem easier on lower level play (I added that in), but he's very hard to play as at high levels. Given it a thought I can see why (struggling to create a position for maximizing an exploitation--juggle for instance, ie TFT--I only now realize that my Kage is all low damage pokes and to a very good player, that ain't gonna cut it; really changes my thought on my level of competence in VF now).

I don't think this debate will ever get resolved (but it does produce good arguments). For some, it's an issue about the level of mastery. For others, it's about being an expert and overall thrill seeker which has its own set of skills unique from the single character mode. I play single character mode all the time, but I feel that tb provides a strong challenge not found in single character mode. In the same sense, I have to admit, that single character mode opens way to potentially seeing and understanding more in the ways of how your character handles a certain character. Much of this seems to be: "How happy are you with your current level of playing certain character(s)?"

 

super-flow-charting

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

If I lost cause of a "hole" or "difficiency" in my game the previous round, then i want the opportunity to learn from it and correct it with Akira. I strive to play with not a particular style or habit (its hard and i havent succeeded, yet) that an opponent can wise up to.

<hr></blockquote>

I can see that. I'd want to learn from my mistakes as well. However, in my argument, i'd be learning from my mistakes for a variety of characters all the while you're learning for just one. Adam, I admire your desire to play masterfully devoid of habits - ie being as fluid and random as possible reacting efficiently to any situation on screen. I really do admire that. However. You realize this is impossible. You are human and humans form habits. It's the way we learn and the way we apply ourselves to the tangible real world. I can also admire you desire to get as close as possible to this, seeing as you likely realize the impossibility. But, imo, at this point in your skill level, the amount of time needed to improve significantly to warrant satisfaction is so great that it, too, is an impossibility.

What you see on the japanese tapes is not what you're thinking it is - at least I don't think so. What I think they're doing is super-flow-charting. Memorized quick patterns of response to a variety of situations. If you watch closely, I bet you can find habits and patterns in almost all of the players. Some will be more subtle than others, no doubt about that. It's like a number sequence. Everyone can see which number comes next if I type:

1 2 3 4 5 6 ?

But can you guess the following one?:

3 1 4 1 5 9 ?


I think you'd be surprised at how much potential we all have to develop insane skill with a number of characters. It's all a matter of dedication and time, really. Theoretically, given an infinite amount of time you could completely master, and I mean truly master to the point of being like Lee's philosophy, every character in the game.

Now, if you're cool with Akira and only Akira - that's fine. But you're going to plateau eventually - a finite function of the time you have to put into VF. I think the drive for me to learn a variety of characters is novelty and curiosity. I feel at times that Kage 'does nothing for me' and a taste of Akira or Lion or Lau is what I need. Also, by playing another character I feel that it keeps me from developing habits - habits that lead me away from the state of water in a container that you want to achieve.


whoa - what a ramble - thanks for bearing with me...

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Re: super-flow-charting

"But can you guess the following one?:"
3 1 4 1 5 9 ?

No prob!
2 6 5 3 5 8 9 7 9 3 2 3 8 4 6 2 6 4 3 3 8 3 2 7 9 5
btw I didnt guess.

What does Adam want to eliminate from his VF play.(as much as possible anyways)



GUESSWORK!

Adam does the least ammount of guesswork of any NA player I have played.
He watches you carefully and then punishes you.
We should all strive to play this way. It is more rewarding than guesswork.


-Emil

 

VF4 will be the most popular VF ever because

the reason tekken did so much better than vf was because it was on psx.
1. it was more popular than saturn
2. the arcade board was cheap
3. people at arcades knew that the game would come out on their system eventually, so might as well learn it now
4. people had a previous version at home and could go to the arcades and play it and would be good

also

A. most gamers in US were psx owners and not saturn owners.
B. thus, said gamers in US knew they would never get VF on their system
C. why would they bother learning/APPRECIATING it if they could never have it. better to rationalize to themselves that tekken is better

ever see a kid want something, and when he finds out he cant have it say 'ah, whatever, that thing sucks anyway'

ever see 2 kids arguing over which system is better?
if kid A owns a SNES, ofcourse he is going to bad mouth a genesis. think of all the reasons for yourself

THIS IS ALL MY FUCKING OPINION, which is always implied, duh.

with all that said, i really think VF4 is going to be huge because its on a popular system finally. it just depends on how many people bought ps2 in us, and how many people bought it for games. if ps2 becomes the psx of this generation, then VF4 will definetly be big. vf4 on ps2 will have a certain impact that could never happen if it was on DC. and xbox right now isnt a sure thing, esp in japan which is where soj is concerned with. and GC could be a bad bet because nintendo has not shown any sign/made any statement yet that they are going to seriously go after the above 17 market. idiots. everyone knows they should. maybe they dont want it to overshadow GBA? huh?

sega decided to put vf4 on ps2 for brilliant reasons, but not because ps2 is a great console to realize the vision of vf4. its not.

vf is not THAT inaccessible, and the reasons people hated it i wrote above. i think people will be able to appreciate how deep it is when it comes out.
too bad ps2 isnt bundled with a modem, the main thing i wanted for vf4 was online play.

i hope this makes namco decide to compete by making a really deep tekken, or maybe they might just decide to corner the scrub market. i hope vf4 enlightens a lot of people, and elevates what people expect. this is going to be like bruce lee showing up at a WWF tournament.
jtx

 

> All i care about with this game is to hone my akira skills to the fullest
> if friendships develop, then that is cool etc etc etc

then, very sadly, you are missing so much of the point to vf, missing so many other things you could get out of it.

 

On this note, I'll like to say I agree with Andy on this.

There's something about forming a team with two other players, building a team of three...and having the opponent doing the same.

It makes the situation more exciting, unpredictable, n seriously speaking, more challenging.

Imagine you alone beating the entire opposition team.
HU HA!

<font color=red>SummErs' 'Ride the Lighting Legacy'

 

Re: here's the thing....

After agreeing with Andy on one point,
here's two thing I agree about with GE.

The social aspects.

I think part of the big fun whe we continue gamming is due to the social aspects.

Some of the closest ppl in my life were introduced to me by a arcade game.

Yet some of the most annoying people were also introduced by arcade game.

Nothing beats hating a guy when u first play with him/her. then getting to know them and getting to be good friends.

Whenever I show my friends the chicago clip done by Ed cruz, even though they have no idea what is skillful in the clip, they were suprised we would take a flight, let strangers into our houses, jam, then develope a friendship.

I think this is the main reason why I keep coming back here.
I'm not here to discuss the big theories of VF, the ins N outs of the game. I cannot teach others, cause the way I play is so whack, you have to be me to understand the madness in my mind. In counterstrike, against a sniper, I will switch weapons, rush towards him with a knife and gut him. It's mad, that's what everyone says, but heck, it works.

Instead, I come back day after day, with only one goal.
Make some friends.

I'm not a loser, I have tons of friends. There are streets in melbourne where I practically know everyone working on those streets. (waiters, accountants, lawyers, managers n so on)

When we had the Melbourne games gathering, the best part was losing. Cause
a)I get to watch n learn
b)I get to talk and get to know myke n Doomboy.

After that gathering, I also made sure to keep in touch with em. Not because of VF.
But friendship.

"Even (and this is the important part) when
we competed and competed fiercely, even when
everything was on the line and coming down to
one last low punch or elbow. We were there
to have fun. Fun, for us, was never ad
nauseum line ups or making other players feel
bad. Fun was meeting up with individuals with like interests and jamming with them. Maybe its all a difference
in gaming culture."

I bow to u GE. I could not have said it better.
Which is why I hardly go to the arcades anymore. As I posted the other day, nowadays, some gamers are not there to play, they are there to
a)win
b)bully
c)humiliate

I play games to better myself.I totally agree with Adam's theory too. I followed it since young. I also remember the most important aspect while gamming, having fun.

I guess some ppl find doing the(a), (b), (c) fun.
I sure don't.
There are too many instances (be it in kof, SF or VF) where I can perfect the guy, but I back off, let em win.
Cause the last thing I need to to piss him off, (esp when I know he's a good guy)cause he's trying to have a good time too.



<font color=red>SummErs' 'Ride the Lighting Legacy'

 

Re: super-flow-charting

Adam does the least ammount of guesswork of any NA player I have played.

ahhhh, something I can agree on! There are three
players I know are watching everything that is
going on and Adam is one of them.

I'd love to be able to emulate but I just don't
have the time the way I used to. Or the want.

GE