So You Lost Again in Virtua Fighter

For the official VF record: I am the master of losing. I've lost more games than many VF fans have played. FWIW here's what I've learned:

• There are no players who can't lose, only players that haven't lost yet.

• Whether you've encountered them or not, there's always someone better than you and there's always someone that you are better than.

• Anyone can beat anybody under the right (or sometimes wrong) conditions.

• Beating familiar opponents leads to a false sense of skill, losing to opponents you are not familiar with leads you to some truth about your skill.

• Consistently winning is relative to who you play. Consistently losing is relative to who you play.

• Your explanations for why you won are no more legitimate than your excuses for why you lost.

• Learning new skills as a result of trying not to lose again is better than using old skills to win again.

Perhaps no statement about competition is more true than this: Its not about whether you win or lose, it is about how you play the game. My fellow VFers, in the end and in the final analysis, you are your only real competition, and after honest self evaluation an plans for self improvement all that matters is did you have fun, and enrich relationships.

Yours faithfully,

MasterPo aka lastmonk

I think one way to grow and improve the quality of the VF online experience is to add a team tournament mode, where teams compete against each other and the teams are chosen randomly from those who are in the room. In a subtle way this could take the focus off of winning or losing, and put it back on having fun and enriching relationships

 

I told this to peeps many many times. Just hit @Lucky_GT with the chair to the head and beat his Jean before he goes up. Repeat until you win.
Works for everyone, Japanese included

Unless you are the best

Unless you are the worse. What is not that hard actually.

Honestly, read through VFDC - or better through SRK or Tekken Zaibatsu - and you will be proven wrong million times.

So... Mashing 2P to not lose is actually better that using advance techniques to win? ... well, stands true for many peeps out there for sure.

Tell it to anyone who (did not) win the prize money at any tourney.

And because of that, avoiding VFDCers in Ranked is justified

In all honesty, your post sounds like you trying to take some Buddhist quotes and then bend and squeeze them enough to sound good when used on VF - no matter how nonsensical they become in essence through the process.

 

Unicorn... Unicorn.... unicorn....

First, you can do an exhaustive search of all Buddah's writings/teachings and those of his followers and not find that set of statements. In fact, do an exhaustive search of the entire Internet and you will only find that set of statements on this site, in my post or linked to from my post.

Your attempt at counter examples to what I have learned just goes to prove you're exactly the kind of person that needs to learn from my post. For example, anyone that really understands what competition is in any arena knows there is no such thing as the one and only best or one and only worst, first because the whole enterprise of winning and losing is temporal based and context sensitive. Any status you've achieved as a winner or loser is only measured against those that were involved in the competition. There are always people with better skills or worse skills that did not participate in the competition. So proclaiming that someone is the best or worst is EXTREMELY RELATIVE to who's playing LOL.

Unicorn, another thing I've learned is there are always ppl who can't except facts, reality, or truth. ppl, who will argue that fire is not really hot, or that snow really does not melt
at plus 32 degrees farenheit. ppl who instead of trying to see how something might be true, in order to make a name for themselves they focus on trying to see how something might be false. Case in point Unicorn's response to my post.

I've shared some of gamings lessons that I've learned with the family at VFDC, in hopes of taking some of the edge off. Unicorn you should read some of 'YU Suzuki's comments and remarks in

http://virtuafighter.com/threads/yu-suzuki-interview-with-strana-igr.18513/#post-374981

I hope you do not fit in the category of "hardcore maniacs" that Yu Suzuki was referring to LOL , but I fear..... you might....

He is the progenitor of Virtua Fighter. The game was meant to be fun, not this twisted perverted blood-sport that some of the players on this site has made it with their bloated notions of win-at-all-costs-and-by-any-means-necessary-or-possible-lag-if-thats-what-it-takes-but-as-long-as-you-can-brag-thats-all-that-really-counts philosophy.

Many ppl are irl just like they play in VF. I know I am. WYSIWYG. What I've shared with the VFDC family are some of life's lessons as it relates to competing, these lessons will either have meaning for you or they won't. My intention in making the post was to help members or potential members of the VF community enjoy the game more. What was your intention in your response?

Unicorn if you've followed any of my posts over the years you should know by now that even when I lose, I win, and even when you thought you won, you've really lost....LOL

Shaolin forever

lastmonk

 

Good thread , masterpo. For me personally I'm winning if the connection is good,the match was good,and I get better as the match progresses.
I feel better winning 2 in a row after losing 5 in a row against a good player than winning 5 in a row against a mediocre player.

 

Masterpo,

Too bad you're not on XBL...I'd love to see your Lei beat mine...and watch you lose...and mine beat yours, but I lose...or is it, mine beat yours and you lose?...Wait, I'm confused. LOL J/k. Good stuff, man.

 

LOL, Real talk, the fact that we are playing this game, and we appreciate it for what it is, demonstrates that we are all already winners. I played 50 or so matches of Tekken 6 and DOA 5 yesterday(it was a snow day where I live), and although they both have their strengths and attractions, it just reminded me why I consider Virtua Fighter simply a class above these games and all the rest in this genre. Whether we like it or not we are all elites because VF is an elite fighting game.

Phanatik, I have no doubt both you and Unicorn would mostly likely hand my Lei Fei many losses, before my luck ran out, and I started to win a few, but the fun for me is not whether there is one more in the W or L column, it would be watching and experiencing one of the most elite arcade fighting games on the planet and playing with some of the most elite players that can be found playing any fighting game, and sharing some culture along the way.

There is a big difference from losing and being a loser, and I know of no losers who have taken the time to learn and play VF

 

To be fair it seems like you bent and squeezed his points a bit yourself, or atleast made conclusions of your own to what he had wrote at each point (i.e read something else between the lines).

But heck, we can have different opinions - Personally i feel the general point of his post held some truth - coming in unbiased

 

Po, I think your general approach in this thread is extremely intuitive to fostering growth in pretty much all aspects of life. People tend to focus on the destination when they should be focusing on the journey.

However, I definitely see a disconnect. I think your approach is even more applicable to the "hardcore maniac" than it is to the casual. The casual is literally just playing for fun, while the serious player is actively trying to improve. The only way to improve is to admit that you don't know it all.

On a side note, that Yu Suzuki article bugs me. Here's a guy that isn't really connected to the current fighting game climate and honestly doesn't know much about it, getting by on his history as a legendary designer. I understand he didn't develop VF to be a super serious thing, but fighting games in general have developed to such a level that the games themselves are analyzed to an extreme degree. VF1 might have been simple, but the technical layers that have been added since then have only made the game more enjoyable. Plus you can have fun as a casual player without mastering them.

Also how much simpler can VF get at this point? Contrary to the beliefs on this forum, VF is actually one of the simplest fighting games in the current market; with very low execution requirements and not a lot of characters to memorize. I think to simplify the game even more would be a serious mistake. The system as is lets the yomi take center stage. I fear that further simplification might eliminate that focus on knowledge that makes this my favorite fighting game.

 

Of course Unicorn's point has general value, and typically ppl compete with the goal or hope (at least) of winning. Typically ppl don't compete to lose, and they certainly don't typically enjoy losing regularly. Unicorn's implication is well taken. But in this thread I'm trying to describe VF game play in a higher light than "who won and who loss". So many players on VFDC and those who play VF and have never been on VFDC put far to much effort, time and commitment into this game for it to boil down to simple win/loss or loss/win statistics.

PRep look at this way, if its simply all about winning, why even play VF at all? Pick one of the other more popular fighting games, that have unbalanced game play, overpowered characters, super punches, etc. find your gimmick and just win, win, win LOL. ppl typically are drawn to VF because it seems and feels deeper than that. There is a understanding-to-effort-to-skill-to-performance ratio that ppl find rewarding. Its obvious that most ppl play VF because its not just about winning, its why you won, and its not just about losing, its why you lost. And reasons behind the "why" in both cases are rational and sensible to the ppl who chose VF. And these reasons motivate ppl to learn more about VF to train, to stay in the DOJO for hours, to study frames, advantages/disadvantages, situations, scenarios, stages, and characters, to contribute to websites,blogs and wikis,(and in some cases travel to other states and countries!) Much time is spent tweeting, chatting, messaging, posting, uploading vids, playing vids, discussing vids not just so you can win, but so you can be legitimately skilled at the game and win or lose you want to have respect among your fellow VF brethren and anyone else that happens to know what VF is all about.

Someone who wins merely out of luck, or gimmickry is not as respected as someone who is skilled and has lost because today he/she didn't make the best choices in the situation. If it were just about winning then getting respect wouldn't mean so much to so many who play VF.

And since its not just about winning, then losing is relative. The quality, balance and fighting engine of VF gives its players an opportunity to play on a higher plane than Win/Loss Statistics and Rank. We have the opportunity to play on a level where its really all about fun, true skill, and mutual respect lose or win.

 

I can definitely co-sign this, OP. When I play someone who beats me fair and square in ranked that's who I want to play again. I would literally empty out the room and just play that person until I can beat them if I could. They could be beating me all day I will carry on playing them. Because that is how I will become a better player.

When I used to play Tekken I used to get so invested in it emotionally and really got so worked up when I lost. Sometimes I would even avoid playing my friend because I just didn't want to deal with the stress. But with VF I don't really feel that. I don't know what it is about Tekken that is so vicious but in VF I am able to just let go and realise I am playing the game for entertainment, win or lose. It's a good feeling.

The losses that piss me off are where I know I am capable of playing much better.

 

Agreed! Airegin Yu Suzuki started out with one goal but set a completely different ball in motion that created this monster we call VF (who would have forseen? LOL), and you are also right because in general more games(including fighting games) are just analyzed to the far extreme of complexity in the process taking out the fun, you are correct again in that partially I did start this thread as a response to the "hardcore maniacs " and the casual players who often leave the community or drop VF altogether because of being "victims of the hardcore maniacs"

We are fortunate enough to have a game that is easy to play, hard to master, balanced, and beautiful. I'm not advocating that we take the competition out by simplifying it, I am suggesting that we leave the fun and respect in by valuing all aspects of the game and those who play and support it. For example more team based competitions both online and offline: A team vs B team, Lei Fei teams vs Brad teams, Old dudes vs young pups, Girls? vs the Guys, pai-aoi-sarah-vannessa-eileen teams vs lau-jean-taka-kage-akira teams. Point challenges: for example most reversals inside of 30 seconds wins, win the match with a throw, the first to win a round with ring out wins the match etc.

There is a great deal of possibility with VF, focusing on simple win, simple loss does not do VF justice.

 

I agree with both of opinions here: the main thing is to have fun because it's a game after all ^^ and about the struggle within ok your first goal is improving( MUs, animation recognition and reactivity etc...) but this only for one goal : to win more fights ^^;

you can't take out winning and losing to the fun, it's a fighting game so winning is everybody's goal.

The only thing is when ego's clouding your feelings/judgment: being more or less happy when you win and more or less mad when you lose seems ok to me, but being overly proud to beat people or overly depressed when being beaten by others is not ^^

: There I can see "the winning is not a win" thing : If you don't know why you won then you lose somehow , and if you know where and why you lost then you win somehow ( opportunity to learn something).

PS: Sometimes I can call my opponent bitch or other sweet names ^^, that doesn't mean I disrespect him, it's just me venting out the anger ( because I do know I'm in fact mad at myself to fall in the same trap again or whatever situation ), so don't hate me, love peeps ^^ !

 

Casuals really just need to play other casuals to have fun. Playing is always fun, but I don't think you can deny that it's more fun when you feel like you can win and aren't just getting slaughtered. I really do believe that VF is an easy game to play, or at least 3-5 are (I'll admit, the first time I played VF2, which was just this year, it was very tough for me to get the hang of). It's just a matter of playing someone who's on the same level and only knows as much as you. Figuring out how to do everything though does take time, but you don't need to put in a lot of practice to just have fun.

For example, I consider myself very average player, and I have a lot more losses than wins online. I've stuck by VF though. I really liked the way it felt just mashing buttons. Just from my casual experience, new players can have fun mashing buttons and discovering what they like doing. That's what I did with Lei in 4. I didn't know half of what was going on, but it felt really fun to have him switch from stance to stance by just pressing buttons. This is definitely easier with some characters than others as many dedicated VF players already know. But this initial bit of non-pressure fun made me a fan, and it made me want to learn new, more advanced techniques.

And I guess that gets back to the point of this thread; I have fun with VF because of how much I can learn. This is something I enjoy doing with all fighting games, but it applies the most to VF because of its depth. I feel rewarded when I learn new things and that I'm really getting better.

There aren't a lot of games I can really say are like that for me. I feel like when another fighting game does have more advanced techniques, they're a little too hard for me to really get the hang of, and it's irritating when it's a technique that's pretty much essential to win at higher levels. I feel like this is a problem I have with many 2D fighters, but something I don't run into with 3D fighters much. It just makes me feel like I can play more tactically.

With Virtua Fighter, I feel while there are a lot more advanced techniques casual players won't know, then aren't necessarily hard to do, you just have to be able to use them at the right time. It's less about an execution barrier and more about the best application. Each character has a lot of throws, and they aren't hard to do, but knowing the right throw to use to either get a ring out or reposition at the right time takes knowledge and experience, and it takes the same knowledge and experience to defend against them. It's not a matter of "can you do this?" but "can you use this right?"

Granted, I realize this applies to some characters more than others. A lot of VF characters have certain moves that are hard to pull off without plenty of practice. Akira definitely has hard to execute moves, and that does create a skill gap. But these hard to execute moves are just for each individual character, and I don't feel as though there's much about the core mechanics that are very difficult to pull off. It doesn't feel like there's one central game mechanic you have to master to be good. It's more important to be able to make the right decisions. Just knowing the core, non-character specific mechanics of VF can get you very far.

There is one thing that does kind of turn me off about VF, and it's how awkward combos feel sometimes. I've found that's it's hard for me to recognize when I'm able to actually continue a combo, because I can't always distinguish stun states. A lot of the time when I see a combo done, it doesn't look like that move should be able to connect. Like when the opponent gets knocked onto their back and has their legs up in the air a moment (I don't know if that has a name) I would probably have never realized that you can still hit them, much less with a normal high punch. In other games it's easier to tell, because there seems to be a lot less types of stuns to recognize, or they're just juggling. It seems like one of those things I can't react to, I just have to know. And a lot of good combos require a P or 2P to link moves together, which feels awkward to me. But really, this is a small, personal gripe and just something I'll learn to deal with.

That's just my experience as a more casual fan. I realize that I could be way off in some respects simply do to my own ignorance, but that's how I feel about the game. Maybe that will change as I keep playing and making comparisons to other fighting games, but there's a reason I like VF more than others. The only other thing I'll say is that I think more casual fans would get into the series if there was more single player content and tweaks to the presentation. I realize that being a multiplayer game is a huge point for any fighting game, but I think single player content really helps bridge the gap for a lot of people.

 

Yeah I know people that "play" fighting games and it's just mashing. It's just pure, straight mashing but they seem to enjoy it.

Having said that I really don't think VF is that easy to be honest. For one thing most people would find three button presses quite tricky, execution-wise, yet in VF you need to do these as a matter of course.

 

Just to comment on the last post (didn't read the wall of text above): these games have button mapping shortcuts and they are usually on by default too.

Even taking that out if by three button presses you mean P+K+G, then that is something anyone should learn pretty quicky. It's very lenient in VF. Try doing 3 button moves in Tekken. Heck I miss even just pressing 2 buttons simultaneously in that game sometime.
And with no buffer for directional inputs some of the basic stuff can get pretty tricky. Even just some strings can be tricky for a beginner since most of themrequire you to input the next part during the current one unlike VF where you can just press it all in one go.

Also note that the majority of casual (3D) fighting game players love Tekken.

 

TBH this may not be true anymore, given "unexpectedly bad" TTT2 sales in compare to "very good" SC5 and DOA5U sales.

Anyway given the evo 2014 lineup it does not matter, 3d games are screwed overall in FGC

 

Yeah I can see why casuals love Tekken. It's very casual friendly. Not only can you mash nicely in the game but you can also pull off fancy moves from mashing. There are three button presses in Tekken but they are generally for very complex moves. The only moves I can think of that use them are the multiparts from Nina, King and Bruce. Yes, 10-hit strings are tricky but there aren't many other combos that are. Really Tekken is A LOT simpler than VF for newbies. Imagine a new, casual player just picks up Aoi and tries to play with her. That's not going to go well is it?

 

Star Outlaw, in a game like this its typically more fun if you're winning, and less fun if you're losing. But lets see if we can expand the definition of winning at VF to include a little more than a simple round win, or match win. And lets see if we can find some value for playing VF even if/when you lose. Succeeding, winning, finding value even in losing can all be heavily influenced by the VF community.

Your point on casual players playing other casual players has merit, but casual players should also from time to time play serious players, they should also play some of our "hard-core-maniacs" playing more advanced players will help them grow in some ways. But I agree they should not restrict themselves to mostly playing more advanced players than they are, because a great deal of the fun of this game, comes with playing ppl who are more-or-less at your same level.

One of the main points of this thread, If you take two players that are more or less equally skilled in game, and put them against each other over and over again, usually the matches will not end in a draw, one player will win the match and by default the other player loses the match. But its clear that both players are for the most part equally matched. So what's the deal? I'm suggesting that the fun of the game is more than just how the match ends!
Its all about what goes on between the beginning of the match and the end of the match. That's where the fun is, how the match progresses, what techniques were used (or not used), revelations of new moves and techniques that occurred during the match, watching the awesome graphics and animation, the chat that's going on between the two players, and the spectators either online or offline, watching the speed of the hands on the controllers or listening to that crazy sound of the joystick as an accomplished player lays down the combos, the excitement of anticipation and yomi that surfaces from time to time in good VF matches. All of this and more it what a VF match is all about, of course one player is going to get the win and by default the other player gets the loss. Of course the player that get the win will have a little more to celebrate than the player who got the loss, but the fun of the match is what really counts. The interaction between the players, the spectators, and those waiting for their turn. Its all about the match that is currently happening and the next match that will happen.

The win/loss thing I view as a necessary evil, the match can't go on for ever, it has to end somehow, and there has to be some method of identifying who plays the next match... maybe win/loss its not the best method , but its the simplest.

Many, many players on VFDC don't get into single player, or don't care much about it. Some go so far as to wish there was no single player. I agree with you though. A strong single player gives noobs, casual players much more reason to play, and continue to play the game and to purchase the next version and the next version etc. I personally believe that part of the blame for the size of our community and popularity of VF (at least outside of Japan) has to do with the poor single player presentation and offering. Although what AM2 does give us in single player is superior, its never enough. Modes like team battle, timed trial, survival, etc are just standard in a fighting game. Story lines, Character movies (alla Tekken / SC) add to the fun and folklore of the series and all of that derails the unsavory focus on simple win/lose statistics!

So what if you lose a match there is so much more to this game than how a match ends.

 

Aoi is hard to play now? Low throw used to be 3 buttons, they even made Tenchi easier... lol
As pointed out above, many people just play with pad macros anyhow, which makes the hit throws and stance transitions even easier (no negative edge).

Elephant in the room, FS has become the VF most closest to it's two main 3D rivals now. Just look at how Goh went from being a technical grappler to this dumbed down 5 move slugger. Jean even looks like he 46K+G'd his way off the Namco production line. Characters like Taka and Lion feel almost like pick up 'n' play in 5 minutes, just hitting some simple easy buttons for great results (okay, so maybe not offline, but like 95% of gameplay on fighters this century will be in the online arena, so it's a big factor).

Not a fan or player of Tekken whatsoever, but I think we should be careful of throwing out the old ultra elitist meme of all VF characters being super tough to even get a basic grasp with. It just isn't true, and SEGA have deliberately and calculatedly made it that way. This is part 5, not part 4

 

As a casual, I really can't say I like Tekken very much. I can and have played a lot of the games, and at times I've played them a lot, but honestly there's just something about them that just doesn't gel with me. I can't think of any specific thing, maybe I just don't like the way the gameplay feels, character designs, sound or overall aesthetics very much. The only other 3D fighters I really like after VF are SC and then DOA.

But to simplify what I said before, I like VF because of how much I can learn in order to improve. I can lose and still be satisfied if I was able to utilize a newly learned skill.