Some questions for the experts (or at least the knowledgeable):

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Aeon, May 3, 2002.

  1. Aeon

    Aeon Well-Known Member

    1. Are Akira and Lau the only characters that can g-cancel their low kicks?

    2. Regarding Shun's stanging P+G throw: is it still possible to input it with, say, f+P+G and require the opponent to enter f+P+G to break throw?

    Thanks!

    Oh, and a comment: i was discussing with a friend of mine about the differences bewteen the overall striking and throwing games of Wolf and Jeff. I am of the opinion that Jeff's game is slightly better, and my friend argues that Wolf's is better.

    The reason i feel that Jeff has a better overall game is because Wolf's high damage throws can almost all be teched, and they tend to throw the opponent too far away or have crappy recovery so that a pounce is not possible.

    Also, Jeff is easily the better striker, with combos, a wider variety of moves, quicker attacks, quicker recovery (i think), and quicker range (if that makes any sense).
    What do you all think?

    Which brings me to another question:

    3. Does anyone know if there are any movelists floating around with recovery data on whiffed attacks (i.e. didn't touch anything)?

    Thanks again,
    Æon
     
  2. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    1. Are Akira and Lau the only characters that can g-cancel their low kicks?

    Check the movelists; if you don't trust them, test all low kicks in the game. Why rely on others to do your job? /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    2. Regarding Shun's stanging P+G throw: is it still possible to input it with, say, f+P+G and require the opponent to enter f+P+G to break throw?

    No. If you enter the motions of his usual P+G throw in any other manner (other than motions of any of his complex throws), the opponent will still escape with just P+G.

    3. Does anyone know if there are any movelists floating around with recovery data on whiffed attacks (i.e. didn't touch anything)?

    No, that info was not released.

    Your other questions are too general.
     
  3. Aeon

    Aeon Well-Known Member

    Well, thanks for the replies... the only other question i asked was "what do y'all think?", which may or may not have been too general... it was just a game-balance question, which was meant more to spark discussion than to solicit information. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Anyway, with respect to movelists, i simply don't trust them (For example, the version c movelist for Jeff still shows stomach crush/spinebuster as one of Jeff's moves and shows fully charged b,f,f+P+K as a midlevel attack). I found out about Akira and Lau by experimentation with the game, and i recognize the possibility that i may have missed something, which is why i asked.
     
  4. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    1. Probably aoi can. GLC's right, you can find this in the move lists and they're 99 percent trustworthy.

    2. GLC covered it.

    3. For strikes wolf and jeff are similar (your main strikes boil down to P, d+P, and knee) but wolf's pokes are a bit better. He has a pretty good elbow that works like most standard elbows, and doesn't have the shitty recovery of jeffry's f+P. He has the enormously useful HCF+P, P ... first hit staggers crouchers, floats on MC, and is fairly safe if blocked. If wolf continues into the second one and it's blocked, wolf is completely safe. The HCF+P, P, d+K (or d/f+P+K) combo is a nice little chunk of life for a safe move. The d/f+P+K is also a true sweep, something jeff doesn't have (especially since his d+K+G doesn't knock down anymore).
    Wolf's short shoulder is a knee substitute that is irreversible. Jeff has no equivalent, so jeff eats mid reversals more. Wolf's FC upper leads to tremendously useful flowcharts. f+P (crumple), d+P, b+K+G, K is one example. Another is b+P (stagger) --> throw.
    Wolf's charge attack, when blocked at full charge, leads to a guaranteed and damaging combo similar to the above: f+P (crumple) ---> d+P, b+K+G, K.
    I think you can also try for a dodge to the opponent's side, followed by a low side throw, but I could be wrong, that may only work when you kill them and not for a typical crumple.
    This is nitpicky, but Jeff's b+P is slower (and has longer recovery), so you can't use b+P ---> pounce in float combos reliably. Wolf's SS/knee, P, b+P, pounce is a slightly more damaging bread'n'butter combo than jeff's knee, low punch, f,f+P, P. That's just an impression, not gospel.
    Wolf has three reversals, all do great damage, but the low punch is the most useful and also the most damaging, since it has guaranteed combo followups like knee --> b+K+G, K ... or b+P, pounce.

    For throws:
    -basic P+G: 40 pts for wolf, 45 for jeff if you count the guaranteed stomp. Wolf's will start wall combos if near a wall, jeff's doesn't.

    -Side and back throws: Same damage.
    -Low throws: About identical, jeff's got one that does 5 more points damage than wolf's, but wolf is more likely to land a d/f+P ground attack after one (two?) of his low throws. Low side throws and back throws are the same.

    For normal throws - In the next section I'm breaking down throws by how they can be escaped. It's not useful to say jeffry has five throws that end in d/f+P+G, all of which do damage between 35-70 pts. For practical purposes, the opponent can escape all of them simply by tapping d/f+P+G. So in reality there's only one d/f+P+G throw that matters, the XPD. It will either be escaped or not. If you do a b, d/f+P+G or a wall throw in place of the XPD, you wasted an opportunity to do more damage. Also, damage will be based on the assumption the opponent techs whenever possible.

    Throws ending in b+P+G -
    wolf: 50 - 70 pts. (supposedly HCB+P+G, P+G cannot be escaped? I wish someone would confirm or explain this further. I'm gonna assume it's BS for now and that wolf is guaranteed ~60 pts for a teched HCB+P+G)
    jeff: 40 (after TR)

    Throws ending in d/b+P+G:
    Wolf: NA
    Jeff: 0 points.

    Throws ending in d+P+G:
    Wolf: NA
    Jeff: 50

    Throws ending in d/f+P+G:
    Wolf: 70 -pounce after multi is possible but avoidable I think.
    Jeff: 70 -stomp after this is possible but avoidable.

    Throws ending in f+P+G:
    Wolf: 80 (fastest input GS is 100, dunno what it is teched, but anyway KS is 80)
    Jeff: 65

    In addition jeffry has no catch throws, wolf has four, none of them are escapeable.
    I wish I had frame date on wolf's f+P+G, because I suspect it's fast enough to be a guaranteed minor counter in some situations, though naturally none of the followups are assured.

    Summary: Wolf's a threat from 5 'directions': neutral, b, d/f, f, and catch throws.
    Jeff is a threat from 6: n, b, d/b, d, d/f, f.
    However the total damage from wolf's 5 directions is 310 points, if one assigns 60 pts to his throws ending in f+P+G and the same for u/f+P+G, the best catch throw.
    Total damage from jeffry's six directions is 270, though there are intangible benefits to the 0 pt d/b+P+G.

    Bleah, this is turning into my senior thesis. In summary I think wolf's game in both the throw and strike departments is better, and all this stuff explains why.
     
  5. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    In ver. C you can TR Jeff's b+P+G to take only 20 damage (ouch!) and the PS2 registers a stomp after Jeff's b,f,f+P+G as guaranteed.

    I'd say Wolf has a better throw game than Jeff, because he has 3 high-damage escape directions (f,df,b) while Jeff only has 2 (f,df). For comparison, here's a chart including Aoi:

    P+G
    Aoi: 40 damage
    Jeff: 45 damage (but no wall combo)
    Wolf: 40 damage

    b+P+G
    Aoi: 60 damage
    Jeff: 20 damage
    Wolf: 70 damage (I've never seen the pounce escaped)

    db+P+G
    Aoi: 45 damage
    Jeff: 0 damage
    Wolf: N/A

    d+P+G
    Aoi: N/A
    Jeff: 50 damage
    Wolf: N/A

    df+P+G
    Aoi: 50 damage
    Jeff: 70 damage
    Wolf: 70 damage

    f+P+G
    Aoi: 60 damage
    Wolf: 80 damage
    Jeff: 65 damage

    Low/side/back throws: Jeff/Wolf about the same, Aoi much worse

    With the multithrow, Aoi gets 55-66 for f+P+G and 65-76 for b+P+G, giving her arguably as good a throw game as Jeff (she can't compete in d+P+G and df+P+G, but has the advantage with db+P+G and b+P+G).

    My point? A TRable b+P+G puts Jeff at a surprising disadvantage.
     
  6. PlugAndChug

    PlugAndChug Well-Known Member

    I was wondering, if people do TR from Jeffrey's b+p+g, is there any way to punish them. I mean can you run up to them and low throw quickly. Sure the timing for this is small, but is it possible?
     
  7. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    It's not guaranteed, they must be doing nothing. They can buffer a low punch just before the TR ends, and the instant it ends the low punch will come out and beat any low throw attempt.

    I think a circular attack that hits mid and hits in the correct direction will stuff the TR regardless of what the opponent tries to do (or else it's smacking them at the end of the TR) however jeff doesn't appear to have any sort of move like that. If only he had akira's b,f+P+K, his b+P+G would be arguably useful. Oh well.
     
  8. Aeon

    Aeon Well-Known Member

    Well, b+P+G is effective against a decent opponent only when you can pull it off near a wall such that the opponent is thrown into the wall. Jeff always tosses the opponent to his left side (i think), so if there's a wall to your left, you might be able to pull this off, score the full damage, and score a pounce.

    Problem is that he doesn't toss the opponent very far, and with all damage taken into account, you'd still probably be better off going for another throw. I personally look to land this (with a wall nearby) because no one ever seems to expect me to try it.

    But Creed and others in this thread are right on, and after taking a look at Jeff's throwing ability/damage capacity, it seems he falls a distant second to Wolf. Nevertheless, i think Jeff's strikes set up better for solid (low) throw opportunities (e.g. f+P+K, MC Threat Stance K, d+P+K, d/b+P+K, d/f+P+K,P... if you know any more, please tell me!) than do Wolf's strikes, which seem more geared toward disrupting your opponent's balance and breaking up his/her attack strings. With all his catch throws, Wolf seems to need to time his throws in-between his opponent's moves, and use them as mC.

    With regard to Jeff's b+P+G and d/b+P+G, they seem to warrant proximity to a wall to be of any use... whereas, Wolf has b>f+P+G and f>b+P+G which do much greater damage and have better "wall bounce" potential.

    Dangit. What the hell *are* Jeff's advantages over Wolf?
    Oh, and trying to follow a side-TRed b+P+G with anything seems like a waste of time. If the opponent TRs in place, you can still land a d/f+K pounce unless he/she TRs with a block, in which case the stomp gets blocked somehow.
     
  9. mindelixir

    mindelixir Well-Known Member

    If there is a wall to your left, Jeff can b+pg, then after the wall impact, b, d/f+p, p, to a stomp or since the throw puts the opponent high on the wall a pounce may be guaranteed (unconfirmed).......
    question about the se
    after the se (d/b+pg), if the opponent staggers with a wall impact, often times the b,f+k will hit (allowing float followups like f,f+p,p) but is it guaranteed?
     
  10. Aeon

    Aeon Well-Known Member

    OK, actually i misspoke. b+P+G always throws the opponent away from the screen, i.e. towards the human player. I thought it was to Jeff's left because i was pulling it off consistently from 2P side.
     
  11. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    b,f+K is probably too slow to be guaranteed, but if the opponent wall staggers a simple f+K or b+K should connect. Sometimes f+P+K seems guaranteed, but if it hits them in the back it's just a knockdown.
     
  12. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Just to be ornery, I'd still argue that wolf's got better setups in this category too:
    i think Jeff's strikes set up better for solid (low) throw opportunities (e.g. f+P+K, MC Threat Stance K, d+P+K, d/b+P+K, d/f+P+K,P...


    f+PK is nice for jeff, but threat stance --> K only seems to work if the opponent is on autopilot. The force crouch moves are something that wolf has equivalents to, and in any case don't guarantee a low throw.

    Wolf's strikes, which seem more geared toward disrupting your opponent's balance and breaking up his/her attack strings. With all his catch throws, Wolf seems to need to time his throws in-between his opponent's moves, and use them as mC.

    Wolf has a lot of way he can set up throws on the offensive, rather than playing block'n'throw or dodge'n'throw:
    D/F+P staggers on interrupt, you can try immediately for a throw or
    b+P staggers as a followup to the above, which virtually (?) guarantees a throw.
    d/b+P causes a generic stagger vs. crouchers.
    hcf+P does as well, and has the threat of a canned followup to give people an incentive to struggle and guard.
    f+K+G staggers always.
    f+P crumples if it hits during one of these typical staggers or after a wall stagger.
    Then the MC toe kick ---> diamond cutter (b+K+G, P+G) is a very nice interrupt tool. It's similar to jeff's f+P+K --> low throw except faster, safer (tho it's not truly safe), and the throw followup is guaranteed, while the low throw after f+P+K is escapeable. To be fair, jeff's f+P+K can be combo'd into a less damaging alternative like f+K, d+K+G.


    Oh, and trying to follow a side-TRed b+P+G with anything seems like a waste of time. If the opponent TRs in place, you can still land a d/f+K pounce unless he/she TRs with a block, in which case the stomp gets blocked somehow.


    One thing to try is f,f+P, P. It executes slowly, so it tracks during the TR, then when the opponent is done, they will eat both hits if they stayed crouched. If they stand and guard, then you have trained them to eat: b+P+G (TRed) ---> XPD.
     
  13. fagan

    fagan Well-Known Member

    **I was wondering, if people do TR from Jeffrey's b+p+g, is there any way to punish them. I mean can you run up to them and low throw quickly. Sure the timing for this is small, but is it possible?

    I’m not sure about the low throw, but you can play the standard guessing game: throw or strike (my friend uses df df P+G after the TR and i freakin' hate it!)
     
  14. Ageron

    Ageron New Member

    Jeffrey is Dangerous! Wolf is potentially dangerous

    (Stomach Destroyer) <P+K, K - (any)Throw with Jeff
    We originally thought seeing as the kick was a mid kick it might be an undiscovered TKoD. It is much better. Stomach Destroyer - Front Back Breaker is disgusting. Stomach Destroyer - Low throw when the opponent starts figuring it out.

    Here is a disgusting combo with Jeff (can only be done on player stun):
    b,f+P+K - b+P+KK - d+P+G - f+P+K - d,f+P+K+G
    The amount of damage dished out in this string is awesome (and it looks cool) Jeff attacks you to set you up for a throw. Wolf attacks you to interupt you so he can throww. Just different stratagies (I just felt the need to defend Jeff cause my boy was getting dissed)
     

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