Soul Calibur 2 Impressions

Alright, I think it's about time to start a new SC2 thread.

OK, a couple of days ago I finally got the chance to sit down with the game for the first time. Asty is the only character in SC1 whose movelist I actually went through, and he's the character I used in SC2.

Anyway, some guy challenges me, and after a few matches against his Taki and Maxi, I was reminded of all the reasons why I never really got into SC1.

It's true that Asty probably isn't the best character to use if you're a beginner...but allow me to voice my irritations anyway.

Let me preface by saying that I'm the kind of player that has a lot of respect for a game's system, as long as it makes sense. For example, I have no problems with the prominence of reversals in the DOA system because it "fits" with how the engine is designed. The only type of stuff that I look down on are redundant things like chickens and ten-hit strings.

My problem that day is that a character like Asty has a hell of a time against quick characters like Talim and Taki. As I faced this continuously attacking Taki and Maxi, I kept thinking to myself: when is it my turn to attack?! Seriously, it was really difficult getting a hit in amidst all those really quick AAs, BBs, and strings. I guess I'm just really used to the idea that if you block an attack, you should have the advantage. I'm not sure this is the case with SC2, because I was getting interrupted a lot even after correctly guessing what to block. Of course, Asty is a pretty slow character. In VF, the system is so much easier to get used to: if you successfully guard an attack, you are probably at an advantage. This is a rule of thumb that works most of the time. Even if you're not sure? Just LP after blocking; if your LP beats whatever your opponent tries, chances are you were at an advantage. And in VF4, even if you use the "slow" characters, at least there is the LP which essentially "holds" the game together in keeping the way guessing games are set up a little more systematic. In SC2, you are forced to learn the stats behind the opponents attacks and your own character in order to defend and attack well, especially for a match up like Taki versus Asty.

The guy I was playing clearly knew what he was doing. He wasn't button mashing, and he did anticipate a few things. But I knew he wasn't that good, because a lot of his attacks would whiff and he would just continue attacking. NO self-respecting fighting game should allow whiffing to be a good thing. But even has Maxi was spinning his nanchakus around in the air, I kept getting interrupted when I tried to punish. Grrr.

Part of the problem, of course, is the extensive prominence of strings. It's a bitch to anticipate some of the quicker strings and nearly impossible to block if you don't know what's coming, at what level, or even at what speed. Further, and I don't know if it's just me, the window to GI seems a lot smaller in SC2. Some people will say: "Yeah but most of those strings aren't very useful at high levels of play." Perhaps, but that only happens when BOTH players are familiar with those strings. Sure, I can learn all of Maxi's and Taki's strings so that I can GI with more consistency...but that's an awful lot of memorization just so the guessing game can go to a higher level. It's like a bunch of mini Tekken 10-hit strings in the game. Compounded to that problem is how many of the attacks don't have intuitive hit levels...some of the low attacks look like middle attacks, etc. In VF4, things are so much simpler. Most of the time, you can correctly guess the level that the attack hits. There aren't that many strings, and strings aren't usually more than 3 hits. When there are strings, they are fairly easy to learn how to guard against even during the heat of the battle. The only character that is potentially confusing in VF4 is Lei Fei, and even I had no problems learning how to defend and fight against him after a few matches. Now with Taki and Maxi? I played maybe 15 times against that guy, and sometimes I have to admit I was just GIing 4G and 6G randomly out of confusion over what attack hits what. In SC, almost every character is a Lei Fei...on steroids.

This might be OK because of the way the game engine is designed...but frankly, there seems to be a lot more randomness in SC than VF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for example, dodging is more like Tekken than VF: a dodge has a significant window of vulnerability, so the timing to 8WR to correctly evade the attack is dependent on the attack itself. God knows how many times I have 8WRed what I swear was a vertical attack, only to have gotten hit. In VF4, it's more straightforward. If you dodge before the dodgeable attack hits, you dodge. Wait, SC vets are saying, dodging in SC2 is not random at high levels. Once you learn the timing of dodging against certain attacks (especially mid-string), it's all about precision and guessing games.

Well, isn't that the crux of the problem?? There is just so much to memorize in order to play this game correctly that I'm not even sure it's worth the effort. I have to familiarize myself with every character's strings just so I will be able to defend and initiate my own offense. Not to mention learning the different timings to successfully evade attacks. With all the "SC2 is broken because of this, because of that" talk I've been hearing about, is it even worth the trouble to memorize all those things just so I can enjoy the game at a higher level?

Sure, complete beginners can have fun with SC2 by mashing buttons and getting nice looking results, but "experienced" beginners like me with a background in other fighting games find it an exhausting game to learn to play at a higher level.

SC2 would have to get REALLY popular to motivate me to that level. Or I would probably just get the console version and play it when I'm bored. Hmm, maybe that's why SC never really took off until it hit the Dreamcast. But I'm sure the nice graphics had something to do with that.

 

Ice-9, that is a very good review of the game. I too have been playing a lot of sc2 since it's free where i live to play. (I have an annual pass to disney quest) The aspect that I don't enjoy is the fact that this game caters to offensive minded people. The defense system is not balanced and it's so easy to just throw out moves to see if it gets hit. I guess I need to play it more and learn more about it so I can get better. But I lose way too much to people that throw out wild moves than to people who actually plays the game with any strategy. Go figured. I guess I just like the vf4 engine better. Like you said, there are so many instances where I was saying to myself, "when do I get a chance to hit" lol. Oh well. Too bad this game didn't have a low punch. lol. Or a low swipe. That would rule. Perhaps some characters do. lol.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
My problem that day is that a character like Asty has a hell of a time against quick characters like Talim and Taki. As I faced this continuously attacking Taki and Maxi, I kept thinking to myself: when is it my turn to attack?!

[/ QUOTE ]Well, as someone who has been playing SC for a while, I gotta tell 'ya... Taking turns is the last thing a SC player is looking to do. Yes there are stings, and strings end at certain points, but that's where the eight way run buffers etc. come into play, to extend offensive flow and so on.

That said, SC does make sense once you learn the engine. Asta's not the best character to play if you're looking for safety. He's better played inflicting blockstun and keeping opponents the heck away from him.

If you're having trouble with constant attacks, learn to parry. That's what it's there for. Also movement plays a much greater role in SC for evading attacks and initiating offense than it does in pretty much any other 3d fighter. (Dodging mid string's not going to net you much, but why wait to dodge when you have a walking speed that's far more useful for evading stuff at distance anyway?)

Some characters, if not most do have a safety blanket of sorts. Maxi has A Xianghua has A, K etc. Asta has B to punish high attacks etc. You just have to know the system.

Oh, and try not to judge relative skill by moves whiffing. Maxi especially is designed with the intent of locking down blockers until he can break the defense, and intimidation. Once the looping starts, and the other player respects the lockdown elements of Maxi's game, Maxi has the luxury of being able to vary his rhythym at almost any time. Attacking all out with that'll eventually get you interrupted or parried by a skilled player, but it does give the other player pause.

I play Maxi, and I do whiff from time to time, but it's usually a means to keep the opponent from moving , or at least, to keep them from coming in and sticking me while I'm trying to advance on them.

SC does make sense... When you view it as SC and not VF or Tekken. Throws win out over attacks slower than the throws. Duckng attacks defeat high ones, sidesteps almost always beat B attacks etc.

www.soulcalibur.com has some links to match footage of high level play in SC2 in the forum (such as it is with a relatively new game at least) If you watch those, I think you'll have a hard time claiming that SC2 makes no sense.

 

I like the other thread better, heh heh.

Nice to see the official site actually has stuff, and the web theater forum was exactly what I needed. So I downloaded "007.mpg" (Taki VS Xianghua) and I was reminded that high level SC play is always, always fun to watch. (at least I hope it was high level play)

As a console lamer, I shall wait until SC2 hits home and then I'll buy the import when it's released domestically. And I'll be sure to learn and exploit that infinite!

 

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SC does make sense... When you view it as SC and not VF or Tekken

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye Aye

As a VFer who considers SC to be my second primary fighting game...I very much argee with you n think if more ppl could think along the same lines as the two of us...SC community will grow even bigger~~~

The way I see it, once they understand the flow of the game, SC makes a hella lotta sense as to when to defend n to attack. Actually, I don't see the big difference between when to attack in VF / when to attack in SC.

To me, all fighting games have a 'flow' which can be carried over from one to another. So, the only hurdle for players is learning the moves (long ass movelists). Of coz, get some vs experiences to expand their technical knowledge.

I suppose, ppl should be more open towards SC.
It's not Tekken 4 (thank you Namco)
Give SC the time, put in some effort into understanding the engine and the characters...all doubts should be thrown outta the window by then(hopefully).

Sorry if it sounds like I am repeating what Marginal said.

But I really think more ppl should give SC a chance, not just think of it as a 'pretty face' fighting game.

 

it might not be tekken 4, but they did already have to ban the cassandra infinite in a tournament /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

Soul calibur's system is comparable to VF's in a lot of ways, but can anyone think of something SC does better? I'm too broke or lazy to play the game, so I'm have to ask others. Maybe it has this a deep rising or throwing or stagger system I don't know about...

PS: to stifle any smartess, I was asking what SC does better in terms of -gameplay-... not gfx or char. design. thx.

 

Learning everyone's strings is no worse than having to learn the initiative off single moves in VF4(or SC). (and in VF4's case I couldn't do it by myself, with VF blocking not having an obvious point-of-impact, only a shuffling of limbs)
But anyway....yeah it might be a pain having to learn more than 1 char right from the start if you want to be competitive right from the start, but then that's any new fighter. (isn't it?)
I can't see the problem; really. Unless you're a 'veteran' of fighting games (thus grown impatient).

 

Ok, okizeme.

 

As a strictly Ivy player I've had a similar incidents as ice-9 but I've quickly learned the solution is guard impact. I don't know if I'll be able to achieve this or not but I plan to practically elimate blocking from my arsenal and GI everything. I my mind there is no sense blocking all these strings and lose intiative to boot so GI or dodging are the only solutions I see. The only thing I don't understand is when I watch japanese SC2 matches I barely ever see them GI anything (and these are Ivy players!). What's the deally yo?

Other than that the only thing I really don't like about these games are the wake-ups. It entirely too easy to get up after you've been knocked down. It's practically like attacking a standing defender. I'm not asking for Tekken style wake up games but I wouldn't mind a few guaranteed ground hits or some real ground pressure tactics. I did Ivy's 214B in a juggle and I swear the CPU was up before Ivy could wrap the whip behind her back. That is crazy!

 

I can't talk for SC2 but in SC you could only hop up off a regular fall. Any stun or throw and you're down proper. (whether there's enough of that is subjective..)

 

Can you be a little more graphic? I was hoping for specific stuff that makes me say "oh, cool".

While the quality of okizeme is sort of hard to quantify, I guess you could measure okizeme by how many options the riser and the attacker have.. the more they both have, the more mindgames can result. Tho not all options are created equally...

In vf4 the attacker can:

Interrupt rising kicks, but only with good timing and specific fairly strong moves. The interruption becomes easier if the opponent is doing a slower rising attack, like an in-place facedown head-towards high rising attack.

Dodge the rising attack, but it takes a little timing and knowledge... i.e. you need to know to dodge in the same direction the foot is moving, but also know that akira's rising attacks go backwards from everyone else's, and that sweeps move in the opposite direction of rising kicks. When you dodge the rising attack, you can either throw them (if you're playing mostly on reaction) or interrupt them (if you play with prediction and have a little dexterity). You can do something like dodged rising attack -> bodycheck or maybe dodged rising attack -> spod. Wrestlers can dodge rising sweeps and possibly land a low side throw (have yet to see it in VF4 tho so this might be bs)

You can throw blocked rising attacks ... remember that akira's are generally uncounterable, and some other characters recover pretty quickly if they rolled before doing a rising attack. You can of course low throw low rising attacks by the same token.

You can bait the enemy into doing a rising attack while you dash just outside of attack range, then minor counter the whiffed kick. If you wanna get fancy you can crouch dash backwards out of the range of a rising attack and then counter with a from-crouch move like the double palm, or even crouch dash out of range then crouch dash forward and use a FC throw. Adept wolf and jeffry players can dash in and low throw whiffed low rising attacks.

you can use hoppy-zeme... hop over a rising sweep and then low throw the whiffed sweep when you land. Or use a hopkick to start a small float combo. Using the same concept, some hoppy attacks will cleanly stuff rising sweeps, like shun's hoppy crescent, lion's u+K, etc. Attacks that go a MILE into the air can stuff both high and low rising attacks, such as aoi's u+K+G or jeffry's butt bomb.

you can reverse some rising attacks with some characters, wolf and kage have midkick-specific reversals and kage in particular can punish a reversed rising attack hard. Akira can do a standard sidekick reversal vs. rising attacks from a certain position. Aoi can reverse almost all rising attacks, and depending on the type of attack will either do damage or cause the opponent to stumble. Pai can inashi a high rising attack for a tiny bit of damage and a strugglable stagger.

This could go in the above point, but you can also sabaki rising attacks. Vanessa can crush rising sweeps with her elbow drop, lion can stuff high rising attacks every time with qcb+P combos.

you can cross over the opponent's body while they're down in such a way that their rising attack goes the wrong way, or seems to go the right way...but whiffs mysteriously.

while the trick seems to be gone in VF4, you could do certain moves that cause a limb to pass over your opponent's body in VF3 and this would make them get up facing the wrong direction. If they do rising attacks, those go in the wrong direction too, but even if they get up with nothing you can still see their back.

If your opponent quick rises, you can punish them with a throw and I think a low attack consistently. If they tech roll you can force a simple 50/50 guessing game between mid attack or throw. Often a mid attack will hit before they can stand up in time and block, which makes rolling the worst option sometimes. But of course if you don't roll, you can eat lengthy bounce combos, like repeated d/f+P attacks from shun di.

if you're paying attention you can time an attack to hit a facedown tech roller at the end of their techroll, and they will end up back-turned. If you use a midlevel attack that doesn't knock down, such as a sidekick, you can create a back stagger, which is hard to struggle out of and sets up very painful combos. You can also set up situations like this on purpose after crumples, by using combos that always leave the enemy in a facedown position. For example aoi's b,df+P then f+K,K.

if the riser does nothing, you can stagger them with a perfectly timed sidekick or elbow, because for a split second you're just a crouching nondefender as you rise.

in VF3 you could use moved with BS priority (or moves that are really low to the ground) to make rising attacks harmlessly pass through you or over your head. The classic example is sarah's turn towards sweep. Your attack passes over sarah's head with no harm and her feet go through your ankle with no harm, but sarah recovers first and can then throw you.

if you know how walls work, you can try for a distance rather than damage combo to ensure that your opponent splats into a wall, and thereby leaves you a guaranteed pounce. i.e. rather than do wolf's standard knee, P, b+P, pounce you can do knee, F+PPP, and shove the opponent far enough that they bounce off a wall and land facefirst. When they land this way they cannot tech roll and a pounce is guaranteed.

While we're on the subject of wrestlers, wolf and jeff get the fun okizeme option of picking you up and forcing a stagger-type guessing game on you. With intelligent mixing up of throws and elbow drops and even stuff like wolf's dropkick and jeff's f+P+K, they can keep setting up new pickup games. Aoi can gamble for ground throws after float combos ending in K,K ... sacrificing the guaranteed damage of a df+P for the tougher-to-get damage of a df+P+G that the opponent might struggle out of.

in VF2, and maybe in later versions, you can land on the opponent's body with certain moves and cause it to squirt away from you. Sometimes this little shove is all you need for an easy ring-out ... the best example is wolf's f,f+P+K, which slid the enemy pretty far.

The riser's options:

the riser has complete control of their rising attack, and can try to fool you by delaying the rising attack, or rolling first, or using one of the unusual rising attacks that fool people the first few times....lion and kage's heel swats (face down head towards)... akira and wolf's quick rising sweep (ditto)... akira's head-towards slides, which foot crumple for a pounce or simple combo... jeff's headbutt... on the reverse side, jacky and sarah's face down head towards rising attacks are always the slow retard two-footed thrust kicks which are easily interrupted or minor countered.

If the opponent lands a MC high rising attack, a throw is very likely (guaranteed?) in many cases. If they land a MC rising sweep, it's not a bad idea to try for something like akira's double palm or pai's heelkick.

if the riser gets up with nothing they can throw or low throw the opponent while they're busy waiting for an expected heelkick or sweep.

if the riser does a tech roll they come out in a crouched position, and some FC moves like the chan's heelkicks, akira's double palm, etc are pretty quick and powerful.

classic bait from VF2 that sometimes work in VF4 - let the opponent block your rising attack and then reverse them. People who blocked pai's sweep in VF2 invariably try a sidekick, and the sidekick gets reversed. You can be really leet in VF4 and try for an inashi. Wolf surprises people by taking off a monster chunk of life with his sidekick reversal in the same situation. If you're akira and they block your high rising attack, they may have figured out that it's uncounterable, and therefore commit to a big move rather than try for a non-guaranteed throw. That's a great time for akira to try a mid reversal and eat up someone's knee or kickflip.

in VF2 (dunno about 4) you could intentionally stay down a hair longer than usual by holding down on the joystick, so that your opponent would be baited into attacking and the attack would pass through your rising body, allowing you a chance to throw them as they recovered.

An opponent rising near a wall is actually sorta dangerous... because the rising attack is tough to block on reflex. You can force the rising attack guessing by using a move that leaves you grounded near a cornered opponent. If you make them guess wrong about the rising attack, they may hit the wall and stumble, guaranteeing a combo for you, or at least a chance to try a wall throw.


I could go on but this post is getting huuuuge. The usual mindgames aren't even mentioned: you block a rising sweep and then use a high throw against your opponent, who's expecting an elbow. Or you do akira's facedown-head towards rising sweep, roll backwards, and even if the opponent blocked the sweep, they often run right into the double palm. You keep using b,f+PK vs. the opponent's tech rolls with akira, so the next time you float them, they don't roll. But then you nail an AS3 on them for being cute. I'm sure soul calibur has these games, but I'd be surprised if they were as interesting or varied as VF's oki tricks.

 

I loved SC but the more I play SC2 the less I like it.

 

Hmmm...actually, I already anticipated most of these responses, and had tried to incorporate my thinking into the original post.

But let me try it again.

If you're having trouble with constant attacks, learn to parry. That's what it's there for. Also movement plays a much greater role in SC for evading attacks and initiating offense than it does in pretty much any other 3d fighter.

Yes, but that's part of the problem. GI windows are smaller and the timing for dodging is dependent on the attack. I.e., to "learn" to parry is to know the hit level of the attack and the correct timing. What does this require? Memorization.

Now, I know I did say I was a beginner...but I'm not really THAT much of a beginner. I could hang with some of the dedicated SC players in SC1, but usually only against a character I'm also somewhat familiar with. So this advice of "learning to parry"...it's like, please man, give me SOME credit here.

(Dodging mid string's not going to net you much, but why wait to dodge when you have a walking speed that's far more useful for evading stuff at distance anyway?)

Why would I want to "dodge" while the opponent is far away? Only stupid opponents will try to vertical attack me at a distance while Asty is 8WRing.

Some characters, if not most do have a safety blanket of sorts. Maxi has A Xianghua has A, K etc. Asta has B to punish high attacks etc. You just have to know the system.

Actually I have not found Asty's B to be much good against attacks like quick AAs...I tend to favor his and . Against fast characters, really the best time to use B is for okizeme (i.e. they think you're going to throw and get up with an attack....BAM, major counter), or when the opponent is coming in from a distance attacking (i.e. whiffing in the air), or in a nitaku post-GI and post-vertical-interrupt-horizontal-thingie situation.

But if anyone has any further advice on SC2 Asty, or a decent FAQ, or just a list of Asty moves that I should use in SC2, it would be much appreciated! I did a preliminary search yesterday at GI.com and SC.com, but they don't have much SC2 content up yet.

SC does make sense... When you view it as SC and not VF or Tekken. Throws win out over attacks slower than the throws. Duckng attacks defeat high ones, sidesteps almost always beat B attacks etc.

But...I do. That was the whole purpose of my "respect the game engine" thingie comment.

My main point is that to play SC at a higher level (i.e. when it's mostly about guessing games and not bullrushing and/or defending blindly), there is just much memorization and practice required. Yes, this is true for all fighting games, but the degree of it is higher in SC. That's my point....not "SC2 is a bad game," or "SC2's engine sucks," etc.

It's not really a matter of being "open" to SC...I am quite open to it. I can see how it can be a fun and exciting game at higher levels, and I'm sure the system is mostly intact/cohesive. Certainly, the SC1 engine is fantastic and has integrity.

 

Stuff SC does better? That's kinda subjective, and I'm not really into going off on a superiority jag between two games I enjoy. (Shrug. Honestly, does it matter if there's a 'winner' here?)

As I see it though, the guy who said Oki as a point in Sc's favor is right in some respects. SC offers more options to both the guy on top and the guy who's downed, VF makes you jump through more hoops.

In SC, any attack that hits low will usually connect with someone down. If they try to techroll, you can hit them with the result usually being a juggle. There are ways to make opponents fall certain ways for Ura, you can interrupt rising attacks to set up further offense etc.

For example, Maxi's 8WR sweep (also comes out of this RC stance) Will juggle a rising opponent. It's a very powerful way to give the prone opponent pause before they attempt a quick rising attack. I've matched opponents out of the ring with this handy little wakeup tool.

There's more, but if you really care, just look at the info on www.guardimpact.com the Skill Projects there mainly cover Oki potential as well as Ura tricks etc.

The rising opponent has a nice bag of tricks. SC doesn't give you specific from prone attacks like VF or Tekken does. It just treats recovery as a while standing situation. This can be canceled by hitting, so you can use regular standing attacks that need an additional directional input, or you can simpyl cancel the ws state then neutral the stick to get regular attacks. You also have the option of rising in a crouch and using while crounching moves. All that on top of being able to roll in any direction while on the ground, or possibly recover from a combo in mid air.

Oki in SC can get complicated quickly. (SC2 doesn't thrill me as much though. Takes longer to recover from knock down hits so you eat a lot more damage when you're grounded.)

SC also handles 3d movement better than VF4. You have the air cotnrol to avoid extended combos, and you have a brisk default movement state so that keeping mobile is actually worth trying rather than trying to wait for an opponent to attack before you can muster a sidestep that'll actually carry you out of harm's way. Additionally, SC's 8WR enables a different moveset so buffering 8WR movs in regular combo strings allows a great deal of versatility in offensive flow. (Both in regular exchanges, oki etc. )

Air Control does makes the juggling game better. (Not much yomi involved in say, a Lau juggle comparatively...)

SC falls short in defensive buffering compared to VF. If you want to avoid a throw, you either GI it (not too challenging since virtually every thriw connects high) If that fails, you either hit A or B to break the throw. That's it for defensive options. There's no luxury of buffering in thw or three throbreaks and also still blocking a potential attack etc like in VF4. Tradeoff for antagonizing turtle minded players I suppose. ..

I can go through your Oki list one by one and explain the SC analogs, CreeD (and there is one for each bullet point you listed)... That is, if there's a need/actual reason to do so. (Most of the generalities are already covered above however.)

That said, I prefer the Dreamcast SC to SC2 at this point, and still want a revision to appear in the arcades to fix the nonsense. Given what Namco did to SC in the arcade and SC in the home version, that's hardly unrealistic to expect. VF4's been through several revisions, and garbage like Cassie's infinite isn't a great deal different from Jacky's powerful juggles etc in the beta version of VF4... But if Cassie's infinite makes VF4 people feel better about themselves.... (They're losers. Heh.)

 

Learning everyone's strings is no worse than having to learn the initiative off single moves in VF4(or SC). (and in VF4's case I couldn't do it by myself, with VF blocking not having an obvious point-of-impact, only a shuffling of limbs)
But anyway....yeah it might be a pain having to learn more than 1 char right from the start if you want to be competitive right from the start, but then that's any new fighter. (isn't it?)

OK, I'll take this opportunity to delve into the differences in learning SC2 and VF4 in the two aforementioned areas.


Strings:

In VF4, there are not many strings beyond 3 hits. Complicated looking strings are usually quite weak (i.e. Jacky's +, Lei Fei's +, etc.) In SC2, there are strings abound, often multi-level hitting with different timing. This is balanced out with GIs, so that's OK, but in order for this balance to really work the defender has to know what level those strings are attacking and the timing of those attacks.

Namco actually made this a bit better by modifying the GI system so that parries high/mid and repels mid/low...a lot of attacks in SC2 that "look" low actually hit middle, and so thankfully deals with both. But they also made it worse by making the GI window smaller.

Anyway, the result is that there is no way "experienced beginners" in SC2 can defend well against quick characters, while in VF4 it's at least possible for savvy beginners to defend correctly in the heat of the battle.


Initiative:

If you think about it, the way initiative is set up in VF4 is quite systematic. First we have that basic "if I guard correctly I have the advantage" rule of thumb. Then we have the LP, the most important attack in the game. Every character has a 12 frame LP except Lion, and because the only attacks that are faster than the LP are light character's standing punches, effectively for most purposes the LP can be considered the fastest attack in the game (certainly the fastest standardized attack).

The LP alone is sufficient in resetting the guessing game. Why? Because if you have the advantage, your LP will beat out most anything the opponent tries to attack you with. So if you have no idea how to initiate your offense, you can rely on the LP. Block an attack, then LP. If the opponent tries anything, you win. If the opponent doesn't and your LP is blocked, then you are at the disadvantage. You only have to learn to deal with three situations: LP major counter, LP hit, or LP blocked (+5, +3, and -4 respectively except Lion and Shun). This ALONE is enough to carry you in a game if you are a beginner and don't know many moves.

Of course, from there you can branch out and try other attacks when at an advantage and learn other ways of reacting in a disadvantaged situation. But the point is that the game gives beginners a foundation of initiating offense and learning defense in the LP, and beginners have the chance to compete in the LP.

And that is the reason AM2 made the LP strong again.

In SC2, initiative is not as structured. Asty has no LP (or anything systematic) that he can use to reset the guessing game. I am forced to rely on using the properties of moves (i.e. this move causes Asty to duck low and is thus good against high attacks, or this move causes him to dodge a little, etc.) and use those properties against the properties of the opponent's attacks to initiate my offense. Result: more learning, more memorization.

In fact, there are really only two situations where initiative is systematic, and that is during a post-GI and a post-vertical-interrupt-horizontal situation. But I already said how in-depth familiarization with all characters is required for GIing to work consistently.

I'm not saying that because SC2 doesn't have a LP type of mechanism, it's an incomplete game, because VF3 didn't have an LP-equivalent mechanism either. But it does make it harder for beginners to win. (In VF3 people used the standing punch, but that can be ducked).


The bottom line is that "experienced" beginners stand a chance in VF4 at competing and playing at a higher level (by higher level I merely mean playing with guessing games). In SC2, there is much to learn before the game goes beyond just continuously attacking. Experienced beginners are not much better off than pure beginners.

In fact, I don't even need to compare VF with SC. I can do the same with Tekken and SC. Tekken is similar to SC in its 10-hit strings and multi-linked throws, but Tekken is also a game in which experienced beginners can do better than they would in SC.

 

Like Tekken? It's not. SC's not reliant on lengthy strings. It's not reliant on multithrows. (There really aren't any worth mentioning in fact.) There are reset moves. (Even if you're not aware of them, they are present. The game wouldn't be balanced if Asta didn't have options to hang with fast cahracters in close.)

Personally, I'm having more than a little trouble with this "experienced beginner" idea. I learned SC in large part through tournament play by mapping my VF skills over onto SC.

That got me to around 5th place in my first tourney. To get there, I beat mashers, and other players who had a good idea of what they were doing already. This worked to a point, but then I hit someone who knew how to extend his basic strings. Vs him I lost, and I started refining my game from there.

Despite claims in this thread, I've actually enjoyed a fair amount of success in SC, and a large part of that came from mapping Jacky onto my Maxi. (Kept it fairly simple, and built up the game around interrupts and safe moves etc.) BAK was my , 8WR Right K was my 4BBK was my etc. Funny in retrospect since Maxi makes a poor Jacky ultimately...

So by my experience, I'd say an experienced beginner does on fact have a good launchpad to work from in SC. You do have to be willing to try to understand the differences rather than say "Hmm. They must not be there.", but that's simply understood since the title of the Game's SC, and not VF. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

OTOH, if you played SC1 much vs other humans, you already have a very good handle on SC2's basic elements. That particular experienced beginner's going to maul raw beginners.

Saying "this is too hard to understand" or "there is nothign to understand" just erects a giant roadblock on your road to a good understanding of the game. Self-fulling prophecy.

 

Err, are you directing your post at me?? I'm confused, because a lot of the stuff you're writing seems to address my points, but not really because you don't seem to be following what I'm trying to say.

Sigh.

Like Tekken? It's not. SC's not reliant on lengthy strings. It's not reliant on multithrows. (There really aren't any worth mentioning in fact.)

...Nor is Tekken. You missed my point about 10-hit strings and how it relates to SC entirely.

Personally, I'm having more than a little trouble with this "experienced beginner" idea. I learned SC in large part through tournament play by mapping my VF skills over onto SC.

Thanks for anecdote, but...I have no idea how you play VF4, or how you play Jacky or Maxi, or the level of competition that you face against. Thus I'm not sure your example disproves anything I wrote. And it is Maxi, a character where you don't have to worry about defense as much.

You do have to be willing to try to understand the differences rather than say "Hmm. They must not be there.", but that's simply understood since the title of the Game's SC, and not VF.

...

Saying "this is too hard to understand" or "there is nothign to understand" just erects a giant roadblock on your road to a good understanding of the game. Self-fulling prophecy.

The bits above, I have no idea where they came from or how they apply to me.

OTOH, if you played SC1 much vs other humans, you already have a very good handle on SC2's basic elements. That particular experienced beginner's going to maul raw beginners.

Not really...not if you have to face new characters with new strings that you've never seen before, and especially if you're a character like Astaroth.


I think I'm being misunderstood. SC2's engine on the whole seems fine, and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of how the game is supposed to be played. I'm just not sure I want to put in all the effort to memorize stuff in order to get there. SC2 is going to have to get reaaal popular to compel me to do that.

Murasame is probably the closest to getting what I'm writing about:

I can't see the problem; really. Unless you're a 'veteran' of fighting games (thus grown impatient).

That's all it really is. I'm not even sure I'm criticizing SC2, although I do prefer the way VF4 is structured over it.

 

Sigh.

Okaaaay then.... How do 10 strings relate to SC? Tekken's 10 strings seem to mainly catch scrubs. (Those don't even qualify as educated beginners.)

How does how I play Jacky matter in the least? (Though the videos I've seen of VF2 and VF3 Jacky play doesn't drift a whole lot from what I do... VF4 wasn't even officially in development at the time, so those don't apply all that well, I'll admit.) The point was I was able to transfer my VF play over to SC and expand from there. I was not left in the cold as per your educated beginners (who seem to go in knowing nothing, but expecting a lot).

sc.relaxism.com has some footage of my Maxi use in the section marked "Marginal" (tho I'm not sure how that'll help the discussion). Level of comp's solid around here incidently.
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And it is Maxi, a character where you don't have to worry about defense as much.

[/ QUOTE ]Maxi has to worry about not being hit as much as any other character does. Offensive flow's fine, but a decent player knows where to stick roadblocks. If the Maxi player's not good with parries, blocking, attack fakes etc, he's going to get mauled.

There's no character in SC that gains much from being played defensively. (Not even Astaroth.) Maxi's hardly an anomoly.

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<font color="#666666"> OTOH, if you played SC1 much vs other humans, you already have a very good handle on SC2's basic elements. That particular experienced beginner's going to maul raw beginners. </font color>

Not really...not if you have to face new characters with new strings that you've never seen before, and especially if you're a character like Astaroth.

[/ QUOTE ]That's... Interesting, but it hasn't been bourne out by most of the experienced SC players that moved over to SC2. Much of the SC1 play carried over to SC2 quite well. The theories behind Taki, Nightmare, or Talim remain essentailly the same even if Talim's a totally new character. You have to be more careful, but anyone who's moved to a new character's going to be at a greater disadvantage trying to learn the strings than someone using Maxi, or one of the older characters that ended up being relatively unchanged.

And so on. Again, Asta has things that'll consistantly beat elements in any given string. His bullrush is a strong anti A tool for example. (Punishing A's only takes the ability to recognize a high attack, which any VF player can do.) Most proficient Asta players will tell you that he's not doomed one a fast character gets inside for that matter. These general things have not changed signifigantly from SC1.

Certainly, it's no different than the adjustment from VF3 to 4. If you know the engine's basic rules, you adjust quickly. If you don't know how the game plays well, then it's going to be harder to adjust. But if you fall into the latter camp, it's just damn odd to try to lump in the former.

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I think I'm being misunderstood. SC2's engine on the whole seems fine, and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of how the game is supposed to be played. I'm just not sure I want to put in all the effort to memorize stuff in order to get there.

[/ QUOTE ]What I'm getting at is how difficult or easy the adjustment is... Is up to you. You seem to be throwing out a lot of generalities like Asta lacking an equivalent to a ducking punch in VF4. That stuff's there, you just have to pay attention to the analogs rather than focusing on the differences.
I'm not sure how you can do that while saying that SC's system doesn't make much sense. Spending a few minutes over at SC.com would do a lot to clear up the gripes you've been voicing.

 

Here's my invaluable scrubby pov.

What does SC (not SC2, haven't played it) do better than VF4?

- Air control
As aforementioned. I recall that in another thread, VFers were freaking out over the idea of including air control in Evo. But mind you, I'm not talking about complete air control that'd completely nerf juggling, I'm just talking about some way to mitigate the juggle damage - giving the jugglee some options, instead of just looking stupid while being bounced around. And yes, I realize that this would make the heavies even less perceptible to juggling, well then, give the lightweights better air control or something. I mean it makes sense that Pai is more air mobile than Jefferey. Then somebody is going to say, well, then what's the diff between heavies and lighties, and at this point, I'll state that I never could figure out why in these 3D games (I think SC included, plz correct me if I'm wrong), all the characters have the the same exact hit points. In SF, Zangief has far more hit points than Chun Li. But for some reasons unexplained to me, Jefferey has the same exact hit points as Pai.

- 8WR
Again, as aforementioned. SC does 3D movement a lot better than VF4, imho.

- Range games
I think this is a natural side effect of weapon based combat. VF4 seems more in your face. But SC has both in your face, and a quite a bit of range games, which I enjoy. Yes, I know that VF4 has range games too, but certainly not to the extent of Asta, Nightie, Ivy & Co.

- Attack inertia (weight)
Not character weight, although they usually go hand in hand. That is, when you block Asta's A+B, man, you feel it in your bones. Yes, attacks push you in VF4 as well, but they don't seem to have specific weight. That is, Aoi's little f+P+K seems to have the same weight as Jefferey's massive f,f+k. Again, plz correct me if I'm wrong.


In any case, I enjoy both games.

 

I believe that SC is an advanced version of DOA in such that all of the characters have GI, a similar way to cause guaranteed damage and the player needs to have greater knowledge of the characters but the choices still almost are very close to paper-rock-scissors situations (GI, mid, low or circular, repeat) with less reward than DOA's system. Also, the emphasis on hitting and the rather simple throw game is a big turn off for myself. (Why throw when the frame execution is slow while you can do a hit instead (that's usually faster) which can lead to more guessing situations?) It's really frustrating for myself as when I see enemies freezing or think they will GI, I have an instinct to cycle through a character's set of throws and use them but a single 50/50 choice or a fast mashing reaction nullifies that. When throws are broken, the situations are always the same and they even give you spacing. After learning VF, SC's throw system just seems lacking. Maybe this is just a personal problem of mine since I'm thinking with a VF mindset when I play SC2. I don't think SC2 is interesting nor different enough to warrant learning in the arcade and I'll just wait for the console (and hopefully corrected) version to explore the game. Apparently, the Japanese players are thinking the same thing as interest in the game is waning already. Perhaps, Namco will be the next to pull out of the arcade scene. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif