Specific scenario #2

Opponent low punches. Can you low-grab him immed after?

Was wondering, cos no one mentioned this as an option in reply to my post "Specific scenarios"...

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it depends

If he goes low p, then low p, then low p, then low p...chances are...not possible.

Best way to counter it is to elbow, mid level moves etc etc

there's lotsa variables for the guy/girl to go for after the low p ( provided that he/she has brains to begin with..why do low p constantly? *boring*)

Variables after low p = elbow, knee, kickflip ( singapore lingo * jiao dao*) low k, etc etc etc etc...

It does sound kinda impossible to low throw him.

the only ways to get a 100% low throw after a low p are

A) opponent sits n wait after the low p..u can do a low throw immediately

B) opponent decides to CD backwards after low p...u can go ahead n low throw him

The classy/expert/cool/demoralise way to low throw an opponent is to rush in with the knowledge he/she is gonna low p, then do a low throw~

<font color=red>~~~ ' IRC
I Repeat Classes!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'

 

trying a low throw immed after a series of low punches to me has only 30% chance success since i believe they will try a mid attack after that.

Generally i suggest you block high to anticipate his mid-attack next.
Of course it's not good to have a static style of play.
On the next similar situation, you should then try to move backwards.
Or you can throw a mid kick or punch.

There are a number of ways you can react after a series of low punches.

The VERY best advice i believe that is available is to go down Bugis on Sat. I'm sure you'll gain plenty of experience.

And yes, remember to play too....

 

I remember the first time I played Kiat, he said hewas try to low throw the d+p but it is very difficult. It is possible to punish a whiffed d+P in the earlier versions of VF. maybe not now as the throws have a 7 frame exxecution time.

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

The VERY best advice i believe that is available is to go down Bugis on Sat. I'm sure you'll gain plenty of experience.

And yes, remember to play too....

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Yes I do go down - I just did the Saturday that just passed - and spent almost $15!!!!!! /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

The VERY best thing now I believe would be someone watching my game and telling me what specifically I'm doing wrong... /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

maybe not now as the throws have a 7 frame exxecution time.

Is this confirmed? Where did you get the 7 frames from?

 

I tot your bf also plays VF4? then he can give you pointers

sometimes it's difficult to some people cos no eveyone can take criticism. But if you can , Great!

 

Me not Alan but I think I saw it in a Jap site. Throws are supposed to be BETWEEN 1-7 frames.

 

Throws are supposed to be BETWEEN 1-7 frames.

Yah, that was what I speculated before as well, but got blasted for.

Some throws are definitely more than 7 frames though, like Wolf's GS.

 

Yeah he does give me pointers; most of the time I only understand 70% of it - if I'm lucky. rotfl /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

What I need is a non-jargon-filled account of how the game works from a slightly more technical and strategic perspective. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

seriously,

your BF is a very good VF player. If my GF is as good as your BF, nobody can beat me vuz I would have a fantastic sparring partner

 

lol... /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

I've tried playing against him before but it's pretty futile. All my strategies, tricks, techniques, etc. were mostly taught by him! He knows my gameplay like the back of his hand, and well, I kinda know what he tends to do during gameplay too, so... pointless, really. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

Besides, sparring with just one person all the time will not make one improve. Variety and flexibility are the keys to mastery of VF.

And oh, have I mentioned before how weird it is to be playing against my very own bf?! /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif

 

My shot at explaining the gist of the game with no jargon:

A lot of the game boils down to a 50/50 guessing game... attack or throw.
A throw will beat someone who reverses, blocks high, dashes, or dodges in either direction. In other words if you suspect your opponent will do anything OTHER than attack, throw may work.

A low attack (other than low punch) is what you resort to when you're really not sure what the opponent is going to do, but you don't think they're going to block low. Aside from the low punch, nobody really NEEDS to ever use a low attack, although some are good.

Now here's the thing. Even if you know the basic idea behind the attack-or-throw guessing game, you can't force this guessing game any time you want. When someone is moving around a lot and throwing out lots of small, safe attacks, your throw attempts and midlevels will get stuffed by dinky jabs and elbows. So what do you do? You throw out lots of small, safe attacks such as a P, low P, or elbow. Once any of these attacks connect, you have what is called initiative... that is, your opponent is stunned for a split second and you can get close to him and force the guessing game on him. Once one of your safe, weak attack connects take a risk and try for either
A: your throw or
B: your strong midlevel attack.
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Advanced:

A: dash or crouch dash forward before trying a throw. You need to be close for it to work. Crouch dash is good for characters with strong FC moves. For example, with pai, if you stun the opponent with a punch, try crouch dashing forward and forcing them to guess between either D,f+P or D, f+P+G.

B. Elbows - Most characters have fairly quick, safe elbows, but you really only want to use them when you're pretty sure the opponent will be crouching. Just hitting them with an elbow doesn't gain you much of an edge, but hitting them with an elbow while they're crouched staggers them, and then you have all the time in the world to dash forward and inflict the guessing game of doom on them.

C: Dash backwards if you can't seem to land a punch or low punch. Some opponents are tough to stop when they get close to you, so backdash to take a breather and start the punch/low punch/elbow game over.

One more thing (aieee shut up already!) ...
In movies you see a lot of midlevel moves get blocked. Is this because one guy was just POSITIVE the other one would attack, and he was wrong? Nah, it's just this:
A typical throw for most characters will knock off about 30% of the lifebar if it's a good one. A good attack leads to a free combo (like all those cool akira attacks that cause the opponent to crumple) and will often cause 50% of their lifebar to vanish. So strong midlevel attacks are very very valuable, and you should find out which ones are safest for your character.

If you play pai, I think the best is probably her FC, f+P, and the second best is the sidekick. I could be wrong.

Hope that works. Good luck.

 

I've saved the huge post you typed out from one of the threads started by Rolander as a txt file already. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

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A: dash or crouch dash forward before trying a throw. You need to be close for it to work. Crouch dash is good for characters with strong FC moves. For example, with pai, if you stun the opponent with a punch, try crouch dashing forward and forcing them to guess between either D,f+P or D, f+P+G.

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I'm still learning how to crouch-dash... I can only do it on one side, and sometimes can't execute the move I want from the CD position. So this will be tricky. I'll work on it. But first I need loadsa $$$ to burn. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif j/k

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B. Elbows - Most characters have fairly quick, safe elbows, but you really only want to use them when you're pretty sure the opponent will be crouching. Just hitting them with an elbow doesn't gain you much of an edge, but hitting them with an elbow while they're crouched staggers them, and then you have all the time in the world to dash forward and inflict the guessing game of doom on them.

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Pai doesn't have an elbow; is there anything I could use as a substitute? I notice her f+p is a good "poking" move, but can that possibly lead up to anything?

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If you play pai, I think the best is probably her FC, f+P, and the second best is the sidekick. I could be wrong.

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Pardon my ignorance, but what's "FC"? And yes, re the f+p, I was wondering what I could follow up with once the opponent gets hit (see above).

Thanks!

 

Pardon my ignorance, but what's "FC"?

Creed couldn't help himself and slipped back into VF jargon talk... =)

FC == from crouching

Either hold down then f+P, or crouch dash then f+P.

Pinkgirl, I'll say it again, your "ignorance" keeps producing some of the best threads on this forum... keep asking questions. I'm sure there are many out there that are too proud or shy to admit that they don't understand something about VF.

 

Hey! Glad to hear you liked my posts.
About Pai's lack of an elbow:
It's a shame, but she really has no elbow equivalent. The only move she has that staggers your opponent when they crouch is the sidekick, which comes out a bit slower than the elbow and is more likely to get stuffed (although the range on it is nice).
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Some nice stuff about the sidekick that I've noticed in movies: It not only staggers if the opponent is crouched, it also causes an unstrugglable stagger if it interrupts their attack. Akira kid does this with lau a lot: Sidekick MC, d/f D/F+P+G ... he gets that stagger, crouch dashes forward, and then executes the chokeslam throw. It looks smooth and probably the only chance your opponent has to avoid the throw is to do the correct throw escape. Pai can copy this technique by going for sidekick MC, d/f, D/fF ...f+P+G (the from crouch throw... FC = From Crouch). Keep using it until they learn to escape, then switch to another throw or try a heelkick.
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About Pai's f+P ... it's great for harassment, it's fairly safe. In VF3 it was one frame away from throw counterable, but in VF4 throws seem to take a little time to happen so now it's probably a safe, uncounterable move. Too bad it doesn't have any reward other than to irritate the opponent. In VF2 the rule with this move was that you could get away with it three times in a row
....it takes about three of these before opponents to wise up and start blocking. In VF4 a smart opponent will probably dodge, so maybe it's only useful vs. certain opponents who don't use dodge like they should.

Finally, I thought I'd list some combos after Pai's D, f+P hits... this is where pai gets most of her wins from in the movies. One combo should knock off at least 35-40% of your opponent's lifebar. That's what makes D, f+P so useful.

If it just hits normally, the opponent kinda takes a step backwards and then recovers. It's pretty much a neutral situation from here. If it interrupts the opponent for a float, then the combo you use will depend on the weight of the character:

vs. "average" characters, the easiest and most damaging combos are
P,P,P,d+K and P,P,K,K

vs. "lightweights" you want to try for P,P,P,K ... it's easy to do and half the opponent's life will be gone.

vs. "heavies" try this fairly strong VF3 combo: P ... f,f+P ... pounce. If the pounce is avoided (I'm not sure if it can be QR'd) then just go for P ... f,f+P, K. The K is part of a canned combo and should be entered right after f,f+P.
Also, you can do d+P instead of the first P in the combo, d+P might be a little more likely to hit a falling heavy body.

Good luck learning to crouch dash! It's pretty useful.
I hate to recommend it, but one old VF technique for trying to beat an aggressive opponent is to just do lots of b,b, f,f, b,b, f,f (backwards and forward dashes) ... as soon as a forward dash brings you close to your opponent, throw out a sidekick. It's her longest range attack and they must block high or dodge it. When they start doing that, fool them by running in and throwing next time. This is shown in a TBZone movieai has a sliver of life and akira has about 30%. Pai just dashes forward, dashes forward, and then dashes forward again into the f,f+P+G throw, and Akira looks like a moron for getting thrown. But he was conditioned to expect a sidekick because that's what so many Pai players would do.
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The gist of all this is that the simple 50/50 guessing game of sidekick or throw might work well for you. It's another strategy to try if the aggressive punch-punch-low punch-punch-low punch-punch style doesn't seem to work for you.
OMG that post was so long. Nobody will read this far.

 

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Pai can copy this technique by going for sidekick MC, d/f, D/fF ...f+P+G (the from crouch throw... FC = From Crouch). Keep using it until they learn to escape, then switch to another throw or try a heelkick.

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I'll try, but my CD-ing is poor... /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

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About Pai's f+P ... it's great for harassment, it's fairly safe. In VF3 it was one frame away from throw counterable, but in VF4 throws seem to take a little time to happen so now it's probably a safe, uncounterable move. Too bad it doesn't have any reward other than to irritate the opponent. In VF2 the rule with this move was that you could get away with it three times in a row
....it takes about three of these before opponents to wise up and start blocking. In VF4 a smart opponent will probably dodge, so maybe it's only useful vs. certain opponents who don't use dodge like they should.

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Yes, I'd been wondering a lot abt that f+p. I asked alucard and he said the same as you did - that it only serves to irritate. In this case I wonder why I would wanna do it at all. Maybe as a "staller move" while I think of what to do next???

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I hate to recommend it, but one old VF technique for trying to beat an aggressive opponent is to just do lots of b,b, f,f, b,b, f,f (backwards and forward dashes) ... as soon as a forward dash brings you close to your opponent, throw out a sidekick. It's her longest range attack and they must block high or dodge it. When they start doing that, fool them by running in and throwing next time. This is shown in a TBZone movieai has a sliver of life and akira has about 30%. Pai just dashes forward, dashes forward, and then dashes forward again into the f,f+P+G throw, and Akira looks like a moron for getting thrown. But he was conditioned to expect a sidekick because that's what so many Pai players would do.

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The tactics you mention assume that your opponent isn't a "pressuriser", as in he isn't an offensive attacker (i.e. someone who prefers moving around in the ring more to constantly advancing like a madman). I've been in games with lotsa people before who've played a really close game - they kept advancing and getting close to me then low punching, so whenever I tried to execute a move I'd get slammed by the low punch. In these cases I feel so suffocated I simply can't play anymore. I need to know what to do in such situations and not just panic, blank out, and stand there like a dummy (then get thrown. Sigh.). I've read some tactics from replies to my previous posts I will try out when I next go to play; until then I'm still pretty much a dummy re such scenarios. I would prefer the type of gameplay you mention - where there's a lotta room for maneuvre (e.g. moving back & forth, CD-ing front and back, etc) cos this also means there's time to THINK, and time to strategise about what to do next. It also keeps your opponent guessing as to what your next move will be. Unfortunately lotsa games aren't like that. I d/l the akira vs Jacky movie and was shocked (and awed!) to find that the players who were filmed for that movie were so offensive and didn't resort to cheap moves (e.g. lotsa low punching) to win the game. The pace was fast and it was exciting. I wonder how I can ever get my brain to move that fast during battle.

But I'll try.

Also, I was wondering about Pai's new kick - the f+k or f+kk (complete move). Any idea about the recovery time? Alucard guesses that it's fast, but I'm not sure. Don't wanna throw out a risky move then get punished for it. It's good tho' cos it's a good substitute for the sidekick (albeit shorter range, but if the recovery time's faster it might compensate). Any thoughts about this new move of hers?

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OMG that post was so long. Nobody will read this far.

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Don't worry; I just did. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Re pai's f+K.... I probably have seen it, but I don't know what motion to associate with the move I've seen in movies? Can you describe?

 

She sorta kicks forward with her two legs (f+kk). If it's just f+k then she'll kick forward with one leg (but she doesn't jump up). If you do the complete move (f+kk) she'll go "ha" or "ha, ha" I think... I'm just wondering if this move has any potential...

 

Doh, no idea. Being as I don't recall seeing it in movies, probably not. But that's only a guess. Does it knock down? Hit mid? Pai lacks quick guaranteed midlevel knockdowns.