Specific scenarios

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Pinkgirl, Oct 28, 2001.

  1. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    Need advice/help on what to do in these specific scenarios:

    1) Opponent keeps attacking non-stop with fast moves (e.g. continuous ppp, continuous elbows, continuous low punches, etc)

    2) Your low punch or punch hits your opponent (what should you immediately follow-up w/, or what are the possibilities open to you from there?)

    3) Your opponent attacks but you guarded (what can you do now? Throwing won't work, leave that out; I've tried.)

    4) You attack and your opponent guards (what will most likely happen to you? What can you to the best possible extent do to protect yourself from what your opponent might do to you?)

    Main thing is that I always end up brain-dead after either one of the above scenarios happen - I don't know what to do. And most of the time I'm also scared of doing something (in case I make yet another mistake and get hit/thrown again), so my character simply stands there like a dummy. If my opponent reacts fast to my immobility I usually end up getting thrown or low-punched (if I'm in standing-guard position).

    /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif

    Help.

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  2. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    1) dodging and dodge attacking (u or d+p+k+g) is really good for this type of situation.

    2) throwing is a good possiblity or you can also elbow and follow up with an attack(depends on what character)

    3) hmmm well maybe they did an attack that causes them to recover pretty quickly.. so if you can't throw them that means they are ducking...you should try doing a midlevel attack or do some low risk/quick recovery attacks.... also try guard breaking moves(the ones you can charge by holding down the command) that's good if they anticipate on countering your attack by simply blocking/waiting right after they attack.

    4)low punch!! hehe but thats if you're close to your opponent so it would most likely interrupt an attack.. throwing is a good way if they stand guard. do a lot of high and low attacks but try not to set yourself up by attacking with something that will take a lot of recovery time.

    i hope this helps... cuz it sure helps me hehe...

    "How many people wanna kick some a$$!!?? i Do! i Do!..." Stroke 9
     
  3. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    You have any character specifics? WHo do you usually use?

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the world of "flowcharting." Unfortunately, I don't have VF4 around me to get to specific.... But presently the game is in a state of experience combined with something close to "VF Sense (some would say common sense)."

    The key is to know what is guaranteed in such a situation. The next best thing is to have a good idea of what your opponent is likely to do (whether specific or generalized).

    The options you choose will grow or shrink upon experience. Observe what other players do. Observe what your boyfriend does in such situations. The Japanese movies are a great example and Korean clips have been very straightforward in such situations as well. And if you are wondering why so many people are asking for frame stats, it's to help further nail down this aspect to the game as a science. Oh how we love advantage frames (combined with experience of range left over).

    1) simple (but probably far from the best options) would be:
    PPP-low P the sucker or just defend it. Reversal or sabaki is an option when you get the feel your opponent will certainly go for PPP or whatever.
    Elbows-traditionally you should be able to block and counter. If your opponent is certainly going for additional elbows, you should easily be able to block and hit them with a normal punch.
    Continuous low Punches--block and counter SHOULD work, but I haven't played the game yet. I figure if you have a fast enough elbow, you can really screw your opponent by blocking the low Punch and countering with an elbow. However, what I'm now curious about is if you receive a greater advantage if you low block the low Punch instead of high block it. You could also reversal low Punches.You could do hop attacks (at potential risk). And if I'm not mistaken, you could zone your opponent into doing a low punch, back dash slightly and sidekick the sucker, but who knows... it's VF4 B and I haven't played it yet.

    2) Depends on your character, your style, your flowchart if you have one (essentially this is a flowchart question). Depends on what your opponent will probably do.

    3) Throwing does work on some attacks, you might have to dash forward quickly and interrupt the dash with a throw. Depends on the attack. P(G) or low P should probably work, but opponent can still defend them. Don't know how much flow is directed in VF4, but the old rules should still apply:
    -When you guard your opponents attack, you should usually have the advantage (exception being a high punch), thus it should be your turn to attack (some exceptions exist).
    -If opponent is going to defend low, do a mid attack (low throw is an option--especially when they supposedly have great range in VF4).
    -If opponent is going to defend high, do a low attack or throw (you might have to dash in a bit).
    -If opponent tries to attack despite being at a disadvantage you can probably low P, Punch (P(G) or PPP or whatever), dodge, and if it's a short range attack you can probably back dash and mC (hit opponent out of attack recovery). Defending is another option, but if your opponent is any good, they're probably pushing for an advantage of some sort and it would just forfeit your turn of the attack (though in some cases it's wise to defend). If your opponent isn't any good, they'll probably further push themself into disadvantage.

    Anyways... as expensive as it is, I recommend you experiment. In addition, do some research... There should be some Mandarin pages out there with counter lists and flow charts for your character. Watch what other players do. Check out movies. Etc.... VF is strongly about the mindgames, about making decisions, about yomi, and about the factors of advantage and disadvantage (which form initiative).

    Good luck!

    -Chanchai
     
  5. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    What the heck...I'll give it a shot.

    1) Opponent keeps attacking non-stop with fast moves (e.g. continuous ppp, continuous elbows, continuous low punches, etc)

    Like jackybrothas said, dodge. Or at least retreat (back dash, back crouch dash). Your opponent has priority while he's attacking, but not when he/she is finished.
    In the case of PPP, the opponent is at a frame disadvantage, even if all punches hit. Retaliate with either standing P or *shudder* d+P. PPP when defended is throw-counterable. If you use a character that has reversals, reverse the attack, after you have figured out a pattern.

    2) Your low punch or punch hits your opponent (what should you immediately follow-up w/, or what are the possibilities open to you from there?)

    If your punch (low or standing) has interrupted the opponents attack (during execution frames), you have initiative, and you're in a good position to throw. If the punch didn't interrupt, then you followup with a mid attack or low attack (much like Jackybrothas said), or maybe an evading attack.

    3) Your opponent attacks but you guarded (what can you do now? Throwing won't work, leave that out; I've tried.)

    You have initiative after you have guarded against an attack. If your opponent is standing and guarding, use a quick low attack. If your opponent is crouching, use a mid attack, like an elbow. If it produces a stagger, dash in and throw, or followup with another attack.

    4) You attack and your opponent guards (what will most likely happen to you? What can you to the best possible extent do to protect yourself from what your opponent might do to you?)

    You have lost your initiative, so now you have to defend. You can also dodge, back dash or back crouch dash. You can use option select. Option select is an advanced defensive technique involving throw escapes, quick attacks, and guarding, among other things. Here are a few options:
    DTE-Double Throw Escape
    A-TE-Attack Throw Escape
    R-TE-Reversal Throw Escape
    R-DTE-Reversal Double Throw Escape
    G-TE-Guard Throw Escape
    E-DTE-Evade Double Throw Escape

    It basically boils down to this:
    1)Know when your turn is, to defend or attack.
    2)Make the right guess, when it is your turn to attack, on whether the opponent will be standing or crouching, and defending or attacking.
    3)Make the right guess when it is your turn to defend.

    I hope that helped. Hopefully most of what I had typed was right. If I'm wrong somewhere, I apologize in advance.



    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=orange>DOG</font color=orange>
     
  6. koro128

    koro128 Well-Known Member

    I think i have read some excellent contributions by bros here.
    Just to stress some points when you are playing any opponent.
    Remember theory is no substitute for practise while CPU is no substitute for Human brain. If any significant improvements
    are expected, be prepared to spend a bit of money playing against various opponents with various playing
    style.
    Only with such exposure will you really appreciate the enlightening advices we have here.

    cheers!


    When the chill of winter comes to hell, only the fittest resist the Bell. - Navy SEAL
     
  7. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    after my first night playing VF4 its become clear how much time and observation is required to really get a feel how to react. helpful posts though. right now i am looking forward to the 'steep learning curve' I have heard about.

    ghostdog, could you please briefly explain in more detail
    all the *-TE options? I believe i understand DTE, that is inputting PG, [direction]+PG ... the rest are a mystery.

    and to sound even more clueless, when you anticipate a throw out after performing a move with some recovery, can you input PG (for example) before the throw is attempted by the opponent, and escape it? or must your press lie within the 10 frame window after the opponents throw connects? if they don't throw will you then attempt a throw?
     
  8. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    I believe i understand DTE, that is inputting PG, [direction]+PG ... the rest are a mystery.

    Talk about the blind leading the blind. Alright, you asked for it...

    TE-Throw Escape. Inputting P+G or x+P+G
    DTE-Double Throw Escape. Inputting P+G and x+P+G, like you posted. In VF4, I've read that it's possible to input two command throws. For instance, against Jeffrey, b, f+P+G and df+P+G would escape Jeffrey's:
    Crucifix Pile Driver (df, df+P+G)
    Tackle and Grind (b, df+P+G)
    Frontal Back Breaker (b, f, f+P+G)
    Head Butt (b, f+P+G)
    Power Slam (f+P+G)
    A-TE and A-DTE-Attack Throw Escape and Attack Double Throw Escape. Using a quick attack like P or elbow, and throw escape(s). Good for stopping crouch dashers.
    R-TE and R-DTE-Reversal Throw Escape and Reversal Throw Escape. For characters with reversals (you know who they are hopefully). It involves executing a reversal and throw escape. Aoi doing b+P+K, P+G, and df+P+G against Akira eliminates:
    standing P
    SPoD (reverses stun palm)
    standard throw (P+G)
    Inverted Bodycheck (df+P+G)
    Reverse Bodycheck (b, df+P+G)
    ETE and E-DTE-Evade Throw Escape and Evade Double Throw Escape. I haven't really grasped this one yet, though I'm sure it's helpful, since a player can be thrown while dodging(?) Maybe I worded that one wrong.
    GTE-Guard Throw Escape. I believe it's pressing P+G and releasing P while holding G. If done correctly, the character's whiffed throw animation won't come out.

    Your best bet is to read GLC's faq. I believe it's the general faq. It does a much better job of explaining this than I am. It's available on virtuaproject.com (aren't you a member?).

    and to sound even more clueless, when you anticipate a throw out after performing a move with some recovery, can you input PG (for example) before the throw is attempted by the opponent, and escape it? or must your press lie within the 10 frame window after the opponents throw connects? if they don't throw will you then attempt a throw?

    From my personal, very limited experience with playing live competition, I enter the commands when the opponent is in throwing range (or when I'm in his throwing range). This from VF3tb experience, so I don't know about the throw execution in VF4. I've read that they execute a little slower than in VF3tb. Again refer to GLC's faq. Maybe someone a little more experinced can help?! I'm drowning here!/versus/images/icons/blush.gif



    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=orange>DOG</font color=orange>
     
  9. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    1) With the PPP, block then counter attack I think is the best option, or if your wicked with your sidesteps,, side step and launch your own offensive. A character with a wicked range for throws (Jeffery) can throw...always a good option. With low punch just get out of the way, back step or side step.
    2) I think, possibly, crouch dash - throw...GLC back me up?
    3) Flow chart..to specific...as with 4.

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  10. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    thanks, your reply did help of course. i re-read the glc faq, and got the updated (0.64) from the link on VP (yes i am a member ... im from the toronto area btw).

    anyways the GLC faq explains when you can/cannot be thrown, and the idea of double escapes - 'you must input the escape(s) within 10 frames of being thrown' (hideously paraphrased).
    so, my question becomes: throws have execution time now, as opposed to 1 frame in VF3tb. so the 10 frame window applies to when the throw connects, i.e
    [opponent hits buttons]---(x frames) ---[throw connects] ---(escape window) ---
    suppose the throw is p g.
    - suppose you are in recovery during the period while the opp presses the command, and in the recovery you hold the correct escape, up intil the escape window. will you escape the throw?
    - suppose you are not in recovery, and in anticipation press and hold the correct escape during the throws x frames of startup time ... will you yourself initiate a throw (i.e if you are pressing p g), and, given that the opponents is initiated first will you be thrown, or escape?

    i ask because in tekken, to chicken (reverse a reversal) the general method is to perform the attack you expect to be reversed, and during its execution press and hold the command to chicken ... if the opponent performs a reversal when the system checks to see if youve chickened it registers that you pressed the correct command. I am wondering if a similar system applies here.

    this is somewhat offf topic to the thread, sorry, maybe i will move it to its own thread, but given this would really affect how i react in many situations i am unsure what to do in, it has some relevance.
     
  11. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    1) dodging and dodge attacking (u or d+p+k+g) is really good for this type of situation.

    <hr></blockquote>

    The dodge requires precise timing; it's hard to execute. From what I've observed during gameplay, when your opponent isn't attacking and you tap either up or down to dodge, your character only moves a teeny weeny bit upwards or downwards. When your opponent has started an attack and you dodge @ the precise timing, you move a great deal upwards (if you pressed up + PKG) and your character's fixed dodge attack comes out.

    I don't like this concept of dodge attacking. In the first place, the dodge attack for each character is fixed, and IMHO the dodge attack for some characters are pretty useless. Like Pai's dodge attack, for e.g. Her dodge attack is her [back + KG] move; it's slow and sometimes the opponent even manages to block it even though he's just attacked! /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

    Also I don't think I can manage to pull off the dodge attack or dodge @ the precise moment esp if my opponent is continuously attacking or throwing out moves furiously like a madman. Too much of a risk to take. What if I dodge @ the wrong moment, like when he's started attacking instead of right before?

    Hmm.

    Oh, and does anyone know what the other characters' dodge attacks are? I've never seen Lion's...

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    2) throwing is a good possiblity or you can also elbow and follow up with an attack(depends on what character)

    <hr></blockquote>

    I don't have anymore confidence in throws, seeing how many people (own bf incl.) have tried doing so - and mind you, in scenarios where a throw should have been guaranteed in VF3 - and failed. An e.g. scenario was when he was playing against Lion and Lion tried to squash him with the double-pounce move (his new move; dunno what it's called, sorry) but missed. He tried to throw him immed, but somehow the graphics were such that he couldn't get hold of Lion even though he was just near him and the timing for throwing seemed correct. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif *totally confused*

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  12. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    You have any character specifics? WHo do you usually use?


    <hr></blockquote>

    Mainly it would be Pai but sometimes Lion too.

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  13. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    The Japanese movies are a great example and Korean clips have been very straightforward in such situations as well.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I watched one of them - the 18+ MB (ow! - the download!) file that can be found on the main/start page of this site I think... The match was Jacky vs Akira. The Japs have a totally different playing style from the people here - they hardly low p and the two players filmed in that vid were very offensive. They kept advancing, attacking non-stop, and the Akira even used counters. Wow. In the first place, that kind of gameplay is totally above me 'cos the standard is way beyond mine; in the second place... man, that kind of gameplay (e.g. countering as and when you like - foreseeing your opponent's move) is also too advanced for this silly li'l brain of mine. My reflexes are super-slow (poor motor coordination - e.g. brain thinks "you should do this", fingers don't move) and so I'm the kind of player that has to go the game one step @ a time. Against offensive players I usually end up getting trashed with "excellent". /versus/images/icons/frown.gif *super-frown*

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Reversal or sabaki is an option when you get the feel your opponent will certainly go for PPP or whatever.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Does every character have a reversal in VF4? I know Jacky has a neutral non-guard position counter for some attacks now; he had none before. How 'bout Lion? And re sabakis, does Pai have one? What abt the frame stats for sabakis? E.g. if your opponent does a certain move @ the same time as you do the sabaki, who will "win"? Or if your opponent has already started his attack and you input your sabaki in the middle of his attack, will it still "come out"?

    Dammit...my main problem is not being able to punish correctly and accurately. E.g. I'm rising; opponent tries to jump up and hit me (in event that I'm doing a rising attack I'll get hit); I don't fall for the ruse. So I have the advantage now (since I didn't do a rising attack and therefore didn't get hit, while he's just finished doing his jump-hit attack). I don't make full use of this advantage. I usually just throw in a rather slow sidekick, or punch, and that's it. That's so sucky... /versus/images/icons/frown.gif What can I do that will be more rewarding for me? Sigh...

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  14. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    From VF3 to 4, a fair number of formerly guaranteed throwing situations are no longer guaranteed (as you probably know). Throws tend to be used as offensive weapons more nowadays than to punish blocked moves. That being said, there is a list of moves that are throw-counterable over here: [​IMG]
     
  15. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Like jackybrothas said, dodge. Or at least retreat (back dash, back crouch dash). Your opponent has priority while he's attacking, but not when he/she is finished.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Thing is, since the pause between each set of PPPs is so short, you need to know the correct and exact timing to strike. And re the dashing back, hmm, won't you get hit in the midst of dashing back, since your opponent is constantly moving forward as well with his attacks (e.g. PPP will bring him closer to you with every P)?

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    You have initiative after you have guarded against an attack. If your opponent is standing and guarding, use a quick low attack. If your opponent is crouching, use a mid attack, like an elbow. If it produces a stagger, dash in and throw, or followup with another attack.

    <hr></blockquote>

    If he staggers, what specific attack can I follow up with that produces the best results? I would want him to float so I can air-combo, but will any attack do that after he staggers?

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  16. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    And re sabakis, does Pai have one? What abt the frame stats for sabakis? E.g. if your opponent does a certain move @ the same time as you do the sabaki, who will "win"? Or if your opponent has already started his attack and you input your sabaki in the middle of his attack, will it still "come out"?

    <hr></blockquote>

    Pai has one sabaki move - f,b+P - that eats high and mid punches, elbows, high kicks. Don't know whether you know of this resource, but [​IMG]
     
  17. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Thing is, since the pause between each set of PPPs is so short, you need to know the correct and exact timing to strike. And re the dashing back, hmm, won't you get hit in the midst of dashing back, since your opponent is constantly moving forward as well with his attacks (e.g. PPP will bring him closer to you with every P)?

    <hr></blockquote>

    If you're fast enough, when you duck under a PPP, just go for the P+G throw IMMEDIATELY while crouched (since most players don't have a habit of hitting PPP P+G in one sequence).


    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.feixaq.com/vf4>[​IMG]</A>
     
  18. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    If you're fast enough, when you duck under a PPP, just go for the P+G throw IMMEDIATELY while crouched (since most players don't have a habit of hitting PPP P+G in one sequence).

    <hr></blockquote>

    I'll try that...But still the continous PPP-ing freaks me out; I don't know when I should strike. The timing looks like it has to be precise down to the very micro-second... /versus/images/icons/frown.gif I've tried doing something after a string of PPPs, but got hit by the next string. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif And since throws require more time frames than previously, I'm still a little skeptical.

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  19. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    advice for some situations:::::::::

    ok in most situations ppp is quick and intimidating because the level of attack can vary by the way the punches look depending on the character. (i.e. shun's ppp attack is high, high, mid)

    my first suggestion is to know each character's ppp + combos so you can recognize how to defend from them. low punch works especially well in interrupting ppp when you're close to your opponent.

    second suggestion: try to figure out how your opponent plays. is he mostly offensive? defensive? or a good mixture of both?try to recognize their style so you can have the upperhand.

    against offensive type players dodging becomes really useful. remember when you do dodge at the right time you can follow up with your own attack (doesn't have to necessarily be up +all buttons) if they don't do a combo with a circular move at the end like a round low kick. this may take some time to get the hang of but worth it.

    also good against offensive players is to do hit and run or machi... try doing some quick recovery attacks and back off and wait till they messup and follow up as quickly as you can.

    against defensive players.. most likely will play machi or totally wait till you screw up.

    since they will wait, you can do what i call is the guessing game or poking game. it's basically doing a series of low risk attacks and delayed combos at what they are open to.(i.e. if they are ducking, mid attacks, if they are standing low attacks.) if they interrupt your rhythm you can either switch style of play or you can back off and go in and try again. this type of play can be very annoying hehe.

    another suggestion against defensive players... try to recognize your character's guard breaks attacks. knowing the range of the attack can greatly improve your chances of following up in certain situations. but it's also risky if you just missed or try to fake it by not charging the attack all the way to avoid them countering you with a quick attack while you're charging.

    these are only a few strategies but i find them very effective.
    remember to mix and match and try not to think too much cuz that can also cause you to just stand there and block which leaves you open for setups and stuff.

    oh yea one more tip. try not to be trapped between your opponent and the wall. one attack from the opponent can bump you against the wall and ummmmm the results may not be pretty hehe.....

    "How many people wanna kick some a$$!!?? i Do! i Do!..." Stroke 9
     
  20. koro128

    koro128 Well-Known Member

    PinkGal, note that trying P+G(catch) after a PPP is not advisable, especially against Pai , Lau, Kage and Aoi because they have a follow up, most likely b+k or d+k . After the last action all have the ability to recover fast.

    My advice is to either back off or do a mid-attack kick.

    To jackybrothas, i see that you have a lot of experience in playing VF4. What are the characters you use?
     

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