Specific scenarios

"Btw, wouldn't it make more sense to use GDTE if you "knew" your opponent was going to throw you? "

No because ADTE covers more throw options, what if the opponent screws up his timing or intentionally delays the throw?..YOU GET THROWN using GDTE but not with ADTE



Yes in most cases ADTE is more dangerous but it can also be VERY rewarding if you use it at the appropriate time, I'm not entering an ADTE versus GDTE debate with you I'm merely trying to expain to you that it's a usefull technique.

btw, I don't normally get involved in flame wars and I think this argument is getting a little ridiculous, I didn't appreciate the fact that you jumped in and dismissed ADTE as useless but I have no intention of getting involved in another pointless VFDC flame fest (though it seems to be your favourite hobby), believe what you will it makes no difference to me .

 

Read properly...

From Chanchai:
Regarding Attack-DTE, here's an excerpt from an old Rich article on VF3 Option Select:
I'll just give an example to explain this, using one of the most common examples of lost iniative, a blocked rising attack: Akira just blocked Kage's high rising kick. Kage quickly enters f+P, P+G, d/f+P+G. Akira attempts a m-srm, but because Kage recovers before Akira can fully execute his srm, Akira recieves an elbow in the face and gets staggered. ha ha screw you akira."

That's where the VF3 rising kick analogy came from.

Rich goes on to say:
"Oh well.Of course, this technique not going to work if you've just whiffed a kickflip or anything similar like that. You should only try it when you still have enough iniative to attack the opponent back."

Its obvious that he was talking about non-counterable moves here, but the rising kick is a THROW-COUNTERABLE move. WTF...

I don't think MS was trying to delay a throw or something, its probably just his slow reflexes. He should have chosen to attack or just throw if Lion's FC f+p is indeed 100% throw-counterable, there's at least a 50% chance of punishing Chibita(unless of course Chibita tried GDTE). Too bad.

At this point, its too early to say what moves are "barely throw-counterable" since we don't have the frame stats. I mean, nobody knows for sure what moves are throw counterable for sure at this point. Besides, throws take longer to register in VF4.

 

"btw, I don't normally get involved in flame wars and I think this argument is getting a little ridiculous, I didn't appreciate the fact that you jumped in and dismissed ADTE as useless but I have no intention of getting involved in another pointless VFDC flame fest (though it seems to be your favourite hobby), believe what you will it makes no difference to me."

Oh, is this a flame fest already? I don't remember hurling any profanities or curses at you or anyone on this thread. If you think that a normal discussion like this is a flame war, then well...
I agree this thread is going nowhere, but thats only because you are talking about VF4 stuff(Chibita Vs MS) and I was replying to Chanchai's post(therefore the rising kick analogy and stuff).
And no, I don't like to be involved in flame wars, but I think being civil to crude nuts like Bungle is a waste of time.

 

"I don't remember hurling any profanities or curses at you or anyone on this thread."

When you make comments like "ADTE is useless" it is obviously in a negative tone, you could easily have said imo ADTE is useless, but you had to state your opinion like it was the be all and end all.

You may think I'm being over sensitive but you seem to be a magnet for negative energy, practically all of your posts of late have degenerated into flame wars and while currently this conversation isn't so bad this is often how flames start and I'm getting sick and tired of this conversation as it is and don't want to waste any more of my time talking to someone who obviously wont listen.

 

Its obvious that ALL opinions on the forum are individual subjective opinions(unless somebody is talking about an irrevocable fact like Jacky's elbow is 11f or XX move is counterable).
IMHO, adding an IMO or IMHO before anybody makes a statement about something thats highly debatable eg.tactics is redundant. But, thats really just MHO.

 

"That's where the VF3 rising kick analogy came from"

And I said "Umm when did I say anything about rising kicks in VF3?" emphasis on "I" because "I" never did

"Its obvious that he was talking about non-counterable moves here, but the rising kick is a THROW-COUNTERABLE move. WTF..."

If you were wondering what Rich was talking about then why did you say to ME

"And don't even bother to talk about non-throw counterable moves because its obvious that your opponent is taking a big risk if he decides to throw you even though the move he has just blocked isn't throw-counterable"

to which I replied

"umm when exactly did I suggest using a ADTE against non counterable moves?" the answer is I DIDN'T so don't imply that I did

 

I referred to Chanchai's post because Alan replied to him, and you then replied him.
Duh...Forget it...this discussion is going nowhere. I'm going to sleep now.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but sometimes the imo or whatever before hand can make a world of difference to the reader, when I see an IMO before a statement it indicates to me that the topic is highly subjective and I believe this helps to avoid people getting pissed off when you make comments that obviously aren't entirely correct

 

"I referred to Chanchai's post because Alan replied to him, and you then replied him"

Yes I replied to Alan I took what ALAN said and replied to it, just because I answered a single post on a huge thread doesn't make me accountable for EVERYTHING that's been said in previous posts.

yes this is going nowhere and I pray to god that this is the end of it

 

Alan - not to plug my own site or anything - but go to VirtuaProject if you info on the movelists. It's all there, including damages.

cheers,

 

alucard, I think the key word to a lot of the X-TE stuff is "insurance"...no biggie if it doesn't work, cool if it does. And like all things in VF, which X you choose in X-TE is dependent on the situation. If you're fighting against a guy that likes to knee, don't do ATE, go for EGTE or GTE.

There are many situations in which X-TE would be useful, being staggered one of them. In a stagger situation, the dash-in throw is not guaranteed but it is a favored follow-up. Good players will alternate with an attack instead of a throw, and especially astute players will vary their approach even further, CDing to avoid GTE and EGTE, attacking right away if they think the defender won't recover, etc. With so many options to defend against, using X-TE would be useful as it cuts down on what the opponent can do.

EGTE will avoid attacks that can be escapable and the throw (useful against the likes of Wolf and Kage); ATE (and especially the elbow version) will counter CDers, slower moves, and the throw; RTE if you have it the attack and the throw, etc. The important thing to keep in mind is to tailor your defense against your attacker.

Don't get so worked up on the stats issue as most people seem to forget range when discussing it. In a stagger situation, for example, it's not really a 17 frame opportunity since if the attacker wants to go for a knee he/she would have to dash in first to get within range. Little things like that make a big difference to what may seem like black and white numbers.

The bottom line is that X-TE stuff can be a big advantage if you can execute it properly. I've seen a lot of players that *try* to do it but end up being worse off instead because they choose the wrong situations and/or they are unable to time it properly. Use it if it improves your game, !#$%@ if it does not, but I think it's something useful to practice when playing against the CPU or in non-competitive play.

 

Eee! Oh that's just so cute! Look at you two go at it! My little trogs are all grown up!
Say it again and do that thing where you cock your head!
BTW: someone was being sensitive, but to be fair and not seem like I'm jumping on anyone's back, I won't say who. Except that it rhyme with TombJoy.
=)

 

I beg to differ. I think what you are referring to is a forced guessing game, and your point is that using ATEs and GTEs helps to narrow down your opponents' choices. Am I getting it right here?

Lets see, assuming player A is staggered and he QRs and elbow* at the earliest possible timing, and player B(say Jacky) decides to rush in with an ESK, player A will lose, if player B decides to CD attack or throw, player A will win. So, its 50/50.
*Substitute elbow with ATE and it will not change anything.

Scenario 2:
Assuming player A decides to QR and guard* after he is staggered, and player B decides to rush in with ESK, player A will block it successfully. Conversely, if player B decides to CD and throw, player A will lose.
* Substitue guard with GTE and it won't change anything, again.

So, if its NOT A CONFIRMED THROW-COUNTERABLE SITUATION, the player will only need to make 1 decision - to attack or to block. ATEs and GTEs don't help at all.



Let's move on to ATEs and GTEs in confirmed throw-counterable situations.
I'll take Rich's example of Kage's blocked rising kick Vs Wolf.
Scenario 1:
Kage does *ADTE(elbow) and Wolf decides to knee, Kage loses. If Wolf went for a GS and he doesn't miss it, Kage will escape the throw(assuming that for simplicity's sake). *substitute ADTE with DTE(can't sub with attack because its a throw-counterable situation, both Wolf's knee and throw will win your attack anyway) and things will not change.

Scenario 2:
Kage does *GDTE and Wolf goes in with a knee, it will be blocked. If Wolf had decided to GS instead, Kage will escape the throw(same assumption for simplicity's sake).
*substitute GDTE with G(or DTE) and things will be VERY DIFFERENT.

So the only useful command here is GDTE(which I mentioned earlier). In order to break the GDTE, some players will CD delay throws, and ADTE will come in handy here. Hmmm...Is that Rich's point?

BUT, like Alan mentioned, it is highly likely that your opponent is going to throw you if its a throw-counterable situation because you can only input that many TE commands in that 10f(and you need 2 back to back joystick input to escape GS!) so its not that easy to escape throws and throwing is of a much lower risk than knee or CD.

All in all, it might not be useless if your opponent is very aggressive and he CDs when he is supposed to throw, but good players don't take unnecessary risk, if its 100% throw-counterable, throwing is the best option, IMO of course.

 

Again, the key is insurance; people rarely attack or defend exactly as they should. Maybe your timing in recovery will be off, or maybe the attacker dashes or ECDs in to throw after your elbow whiffs. If you can do ATE reliably, what's the harm? Minimize your variables and concentrate on the ATE instead of guessing between guarding or attacking.

However, I do agree with you that EGTE is usually the best option, but I don't entirely agree with your throw-guaranteed situation advice. Going for the guaranteed counter attack might be better, and for some characters like Sarah who has limited throws but half-life attack combos, Sarah should try to play the guessing game.

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

okay, I havent read most of the thread, but I assume your talking about what to do after PPP. If you are playing with pai, neary everyone is used to blocking low after PPP to block the sweep. So if they duck you can low throw them, hop right over them.

<hr></blockquote>



No, if your opponent keeps PPP, PPP, PPP, PPP, PPP - that's what I meant.

 

lol at least there's some humour here....that got me laughing...and boy, you are subtle aren't u? rotfl

 

not really,

I throw out knee many times at situations which does not guarantee one. That is the point of yomi. I throw knee when I expect a throw escape, not a ADTE. If the opponent does an ADTE, err... it is just an unexpected bonus (MC).

 

Llanfair,

I know about your site. In I think I havce posted thanks on this board for the great info there

 

"not really,

I throw out knee many times at situations which does not guarantee one"

I said "what sort of chump throws out a knee EVERY time he blocks a non knee counterable attack" I was trying to make the point that ADTE is usefull, obviously you use the ADTE when you expect a throw and a GDTE when you're not sure if he will attack or throw since it covers both (though if they DO throw you have a better chance of avoiding it with ADTE.

"I throw knee when I expect a throw escape"

Yeah and that's all good and well if the opponent does TE and not GTE if he had done GTE you would be punished for throwing out so many knees.

 

Alucard, I suppose (IMHO) you wont really understand the uses of ATE etc. you really have to play someone who is either a very good guarder or very very agressive. Like ice said all OS techniques are really for insurance.

I still use the oldie but good, R-DTE.

So lets say im pai vs akira, someone blocks my sidekick, I throw out a mid reverse, pg, d/f+pg. So I can reverse a potential elbow, a pg grab, and a d/f+pg grab.

I input three things, yes akira can choose to CD wait to watch me whiff or CD Shrm me but, i;ve eliminated three things that akira might do to me.

The A-TE, E-TEG all of these work to give the defender better chances of surviving. Practically put you have to watch the better players in action, they use these techniques all the time. While you wont need them to win, they sure can help you survive a bit longer in the match.

CrewNYC