Stagger & Struggle's oddities

The basic idea on how the stagger and struggle's mechanics work is simple and well known (you can decrease the amount of stun induced by a stugger inputing as many directional and button inputs as possible as soon as the stick on screen turns from green to red) but some questions remain.
I've come across a few struggles and staggers that behave strangely; thanks to these "oddities" we could be able to better define this aspect of the game.
I'm sure there are many more of these oddities in the game so I'm asking you guys to post them here, all in one place.


The next two oddities are someway linked and are related to the wall stagger system.

The first one is quite simple to reverse engineering but it will help us understanding the second one.

If Kage has his back to the wall and does his throw then he has up to 16 frames for a mid (except for that bitch of Aoi) and is a guaranteed natural combo.
If the opponent holds while is performed than the last punch will cause a wall stagger.
If instead the opponents does not hold while the last punch connects then no wall stagger will be triggerd.
This behavior can be explained by an increased (deeper) hurtbox when pressing (even if there isn't any guard) that will fill the gap (when isn't pressed) with the wall.


The second one it's about a struggle that usually is considerd quite hard to break.

If Aoi has her back to the wall and does his throw she has an advantage of 15 frames and can connect which will cause a wall stagger.
If you hold while eating the guaranteed string the relative stagger is a though one (still doable) but if you do not hold the guard button until the green stick appears on screen then the struggle becomes a lot easier (take this bitch )
This behavior can be explained with what we have found in our first case: holding will increased the hurtbox triggering a harder stagger.
As a corollary we can deduce that the depth of a stagger could be a function of the distance (inversely proportional).

These two case can help you find a way to avoid/lessen some staggers, if so please post your findings here.


EDIT

The third one is about another considered hard stagger but this time it's really strange and I'm not sure how it works.

It's not a mistery anymore: it's just a hard stagger to recover from with a peculiar crouching stagger animation.

If Lei is in his Dokuritsu Shiki stance and does on a standing opponent it will cause a stagger that makes hard to guard the ot guaranteed followup from Hai Shiki (even japanese players get always hit by that).
After you got hit by the low kick continue to hold if you were already doing it or just press and hold it if you weren't; as soon as the green stick appears on screen hold (don't do it immediatly) and only when you see the followup punches starting (not too early) press (or wahtever attack button you prefer if you are using a pad with bindings) and you will be able to easily guard the followup punches (a few times I was even able to break the stagger with only but it seems to require a stricter timing).
You can even hold while pressing to make the second punch whiff.
It seems this stagger just needs one direction e two perfectly timed button inputs to be broken and that if you do't press to much early a directional input it will counts towards your struggle attempt.
What's strange here is that it's really hard, almost impossible, to break it the "normal" way (I can usually break Goh's max charged > 2 out of 10 but not this one) leading me to think there's a penalty for starting you struggle attempt too early.
This happens because if you don't start to struggle immediatly the first punch will whiff (even if you have your back near a wall) lowering the number of inputs needed to break the stagger.
Obviously if Lei goes for the followup and you use this delayed struggle tech you will get juggled off.




These are only speculations so if you find any errors please let me know.

 

Edited the first post with the solution of Lei Fei Doku stagger mistery

 

The first one is part of a bigger phenomenon I think, as I've encountered something similar. If you use jeff 44p+g, you can use 3pp+k+g ONLY when the opp tries to guard! If not, then it will just whiff.

So indeed we can conclude that holding guard changes something when transitioning from back/sideturned to neutral. As the kage example shows us, in this state a hit that will normally not cause a wallstagger will actually do just that. As pretty much every move causes a wallstagger from the side, I think it's safe to assume that holding guard will extend the length of side turned properties to the amount of disadvantage +3 for st and maybe even +6 for bt/25+ dmg moves. I cant test this now though, so I'll have to leave it at that.

 

In my video there is another example that could be attributed to the increase of the hurtbox by pressing G. Last hit (43P+K) will hit only if the opponent press G. That's cool

 

To avoid a wall stagger caused by the second hit Pai's after she put you backturned with her throw, I was using an other / similar method: just briefly crouch ! ( then G )
It works with your method too, but at least if you crouch while BT, you can avoid some high attack what would be guaranteed otherwise. Like Kage's or Eileen's : because if you guard or not while BT and stay standing, you can still get hit by it. Or like I told you against Aoi, if she just for a heavy wall stagger.

But nice find !

Now about the Lei Fei thing, if by your struggle method you get juggled by Hai instead, it doesn't really worth the risk..

Spoiler

Don't worry bitch I have others wall set ups if you don't want to use your G button ( just like when you play Shun Di or Lei Fei ) when you're BT..
PS: I hate you.

 

Ok I did more testing.
Your tip works against:
Shun ( back to the wall ) > ( stagger )> into combo
Lion ( Back to the wall ) > ( wall stagger ) >

However I tested with Lau's throw into ( wall stagger )> WS .
Lau & the opponent need to make an angle of 45°with the wall so that he pushes the opponent back to the wall with his throw.
Apparently, it changes nothing if you hold or not. ( the wall stagger is not much hard to struggle out of ).
But I can be wrong since I struggle with a pad lol.

So I decided to do the same with Aoi, with the same conditions ( an angle of 45° or parallel with the wall ) and pushes the opponent to the wall with , then do ~Sundome --> guard or not during the hit, it's very hard to struggle out of the wall stagger. ( take that bitch )

 

Hello!

I need to know about STAGGER RECOVERY. KoD article is the best thing about it and actual for VF5FS... But , how to fix icons failures on our new forum engine?

http://virtuafighter.com/threads/programmable-inputs-esoteric-frame-data-q-a.12323/#post-190910

I mean this:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif

 

Old urls for direction smileys, .

 

i understand this, but how to "translate" this "code" in the KoD old topic, ... any fixes?

 

Nope, unless someone edits the thread and changes the old urls to correspond to the new ones, but I doubt anybody cares. Just read around it.