staggers vs. heavy weights

Has anyone elso noticed that Wolf and Jeff get pushed further away when you crouch stagger them?

If you delay the knee after an elbow crouch stagger, it can whiff completely. Is this a stance issue?

Crouch stagger with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will often push Wolf/Jeff out of range of FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Which really sux.
I end up using FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for miniscule guaranteed damage.

 

Im not sure if this is news to me, because I generally don't try to followup with knee after elbow stagger. Unless it was like punishment to a sweep or something.

Hmm. I dash and either do a throw, elbow again, or something else. For me elbow is a pressure tool, the hitconfirming knee isnt enough damage for me to risk whiffing or getting in blocked normally. I think Im in love with flamingo so much I tend to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif even though its less than stellar. Just my ideas.

But, interesting to know. One more notch in Sarahs 'random whiffs' column.

 

Manji, have you noticed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crouch stagger) --> FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif missing vs. Wolf and Jeff because they get pushed too far away?

 

I just tested. Yes, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif crouch stagger FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif misses, but shouldnt you be doing FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif instead anyway?

Elbow knee didnt seem to whiff against wolf, will test further.

 

I want the FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif guaranteed crumple combos. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif
FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is just more guessing games... but OK... you're right again /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


elbow (DELAY) knee is the problem.

If you do elbow-knee as quick as possible, I don't think there's a problem.
BTW, your points about elbow stagger options are all valid. The knee is no where near the best option.

 

Followup FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to stagger is not guaranteed ever, afaik.

 

No, it is not guaranteed, but damn near close to it. I can only remember someone struggling fast enough vs. me 3 times now. In my mind, that is "guaranteed" enough.

I had some time to double chk this in the dojo. Against Wolf and Jeff blocking low, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif stagger pushes them out of range of FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. But then I checked the same thing with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. They are still in range of FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on that stagger.

The crouch staggers are different. (I know, duh, the moves are different, 15 vs. 20 pts of damage.) I had been thinking that crouch staggers are the same for different moves, but that's not the case. It's like block stun, hit stun, and float heights. They are all affected by the power of the move causing them.

Anyways, counter hit FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a black book combo that I never used because it didn't always work for me, and I couldn't figure out why. Using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif as the initiating stagger to get the counter hit makes all the difference.

vs. non heavy weights blocking low
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (stagger) -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crumple) -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif 72pts

vs. Wolf and Jeff blocking low
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (stagger) -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crumple) -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif 77pts

The second combo does not work vs. non-heavies. the FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif whiffs.

Now to stop my scrubbly /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ways is a different matter...

 

It works in closed stance.
closed stance /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crouch stagger) -> FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for 78. Works against most everyone except heavies. Pressing G times the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif perfectly.

In open stance against non-heavies theres the usual options.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crouch stagger) -> FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (71 iirc)
and
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (crouch stagger) -> FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (69)

I havent given much thought about crouch stagger followups since they really arent guaranteed and people I play against can recover the stagger. I guess what matters is which of the normal combos whiff due to range.

 

More heavy weight specific crap for Sarah.

Jeff and Wolf can get out of the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo with exact frame quick rise/tech roll. The punt kick whiffs. Thanks L_A for showing me this... I don't know if it had been posted before.

 

What do you mean quick tech roll?? Can you make it clear??

 

He means to quick rise or tech roll. Quick rise is just rise in place. It has to be perfect for the combo to miss.

 

Lemme know when you need perfect timing.

 

???

Also, it occured to me that characters without low throws have a bit of ol' option select available to them when you tech roll. If you want to low punch out of your tech roll to try and interrupt a pressuring opponent and they are able to low throw you, use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. You will still low punch, but it also doubles as a low throw escape.

 

But this doesn't matter because most oppenents if they are any good are going to be oki'ing with a mid attack and ur 2p is just going to be...
...
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Just kidding. Great tip. Fantastic advice. I will use this against opponents who low throw. lol. Sure it could be risky, but it also will beats low throw, high throw and high strikes. Against vane it will help u avoid her tornado kick on wake up too. Good find.

 

Yeah, I don't really use low punch out of tech roll much myself, but when you do, might as well have the potential to reverse a low throw too.

I tech roll -> 2P when I think my opponent is going to do a high crescent or high throw.

 

Good find Yupa. I just noticed this while playing Adam this weekend. I thought he was doing something wierd to get out of mid kick range. If only I read this eariler I would have used b+p+k instead.

To Manjimaru, I don't see why you don't try to use df+k once in a while. I think it is too much damage to not go for it. I mean even if the guy can struggle really hard and block it, all he did is block a mid kick with nothing guaranteed against you. How many people get a 70+ point combo starter that is not punishable and has a very little chance of being evaded? And if he is going to struggle that hard, I can almost guarantee that means he is not going to attack you in any way, so you just set him up for almost anything you want next time you get a b+k into stagger. (Catch throw, FL -> step, f+p+k -> d+k -> kx2, guard out of FL and b+k again into another possible stagger situation)Df+p -> k is a really good option, but I would in no way call it the best and only option after b+k stagger.

I also think elbow -> knee is a fine move as well. It is the only option that leads into a tech roll set up afterwards. (Outside of doing a sweep or launcher) I actually think it is the best place to go for some kind of tech trap since you start right on top of the guy and you have enough time to set up anything you want. Elbow stagger -> dash in and throw or another elbow is really strong, but people can handle that situation if they see it enough times, so I always like to mix it up with another totally different sequence moves/situations.

Well thats enough of that stuff. Good information all around. I agree with everything that has been said so far, but I just don't want people to read this thread and think that doing FL df+k after a b+k stagger is a bad thing (I personally think it is a GREAT thing!) or that following up an elbow with the canned knee is something that should never be done.

Thanks for reading guys. I hope this helps.

GoatCheeseBlues

 

Or just hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif after techrolling. Can be surprisingly effective. Opponnet whiffs something above your head and you can punish.