Standing PPP Mixups

When you look at /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif vs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, they're both headgames. You have nothing when you're at +4, they have nothing when you're at -4. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is great to throw out because it's easy to hit-check, and you have the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif follow up that allows you to play a few more mind games. But you can't delay the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, so if you're up against a good player, you've lost that particular Ace.

But yes, VF is not theory fighter. That's why KiwE sounds like a great player, until you see him play. And then you realize he sucks. And that's why CidKid, a newbie to VF, could beat Chief Flash, Konjou, and others. Because fighting games are about two people. Two human beings, fighting. And paper can only take you so far.

A good player will watch you. He'll adapt. He'll notice both of the health bars, and gauge his actions accordingly. He'll make his disadvantage YOUR disadvantage. He'll lull you to sleep and then take you out with a hammer. He's constantly learning, constantly watching, constantly planning, and will run around you as long as you let him. As long as you keep looking at your ridiculous paper that supposedly has the answers you're so desperately seeking.

Not to say frames aren't good, they've helped out my game a lot. But they won't solve your problems, and they won't make you a good player. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif works because it gets into your head. Every move in VF has a viable set-up, if you can think that far ahead of your opponent. And /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ain't that bad compared to, say, Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

Great post Ladon. Is funny how most of this guys don't understand what this thread is all about. I clearly stated that all those setups are not guarantee, but options to consider when PPP lands. Once PPP lands, I need to guess what to do next, same for my opponent. Is a little ridiculous to think you know what your opponent is going to do.

 

While what you say is true, you could have said it without saying that KiwE sucks while you have never seen HIM play either.

Same goes to you Shinobifist, at least attempt to keep this civil. Personally I would like to see people use theory to improve their defense. That is all. I never said that you cant use your mixups nor that they dont work. I just want people to know under what condition do they work.

 

Would u rather play his leifei cause it's easier for you, or because it's stronger and therefore u want to play his best?

 

Actually i agree with both arguements. First i've played shinobi and while i wasn't the player i am today, i remember him throuncing me pretty good a time or 2. And i have some setups that will absolutely eat people up, even players "better" than me, and that is because they don't know the frame data. Yet, some of these setups have "outs" for my opponent that if they use, i simply have to put it away, cause it just can't beat certain replies. So what i'm saying is this: In theory fight they are losing setups, but in vf5 they are the setups i use to win a high percentage of my matches and even to beat the players that are considered top teir or high teir in our online community. So what works in fights is really what is important. At the same time, if u can use theory fighter to strengthen ur game before u ever grab the controller then u are playing smart. I know that next time i play blaze i will be better for knowing ppp leaves a -4 disadvantage, and i need to counter the threat of pppk with floating him in his k. whether i use it effectively or not remains to be seen. But i personally like to know on paper what my options are. For all that i would never on paper get killed by whiffing rising after rising attack yet in when i play i keep doing those stupid rising attacks : (

 

True you have a point, my apologies and nor did I find a problem with any of your post to begin with. but no need for others to bash it like is FUD, when that's not the case. I'm fully aware there's a answer for everything in VF, and that's the beauty of it compare to other fighters.

 

personally...


im seeing.. "canned k",- and "low crush". similar methods like this are pretty common in VF like lau for example.


the basic factor is blaze is -4, so he generally has the same options at any mid disadvantage.

 

So who's the ones doing the bashing?

I just didn't understand how throwing will work at -4 and to me all these situations you posted look easy to deal with. A mid and fuzzy guard will kill them, I could be wrong but i'm not gonna get all personal over it.

KiwE didn't bash on anyone either, he just posted his opinions, If you read through the thread it's easy to see who's doing the bashing.

 

Ladon, I appreciate your post, but you know very well that -4 and +4, even if nothing is guaranteed in either case, are not the same situation. At -4 you have to do fairly risky things to stop a simple lowpunch (which gets back to my original point about most western players not capitalizing when they do guess right and interrupt jumping moves). At +4 you don't.

I can understand why pp(something) / ppp(something) / pppk (something) is useful if you're just throwing it out and hit checking, but isn't this thread supposed to be about "punishment", ie ppp when its guaranteed? Maybe I misunderstood.

Social ruin i'd rather play his (or really, any) leifei cause I've at least played a little leifei myself and have some limited understanding of the character. Elblaze's character design is really unappealing to me, I have no interest in playing him, and I'm frankly too lazy to figure out his shit until I have to.

Along those lines, in case it wasnt clear, shinobifist thanks for posting up that list - some of those options I either hadnt seen or didn't recognize. Don't take the counterarguments too personally, people are gonna argue with you if you say something, that's just the nature of the intarwebs. *edit* that being said, I think it would help to rationally explain some things about your posts that don't make immediate sense (ppp counter hit and evade 3k come to mind).

 

Ok, throwing will work only if the opponent freezes and just blocks in anticipation of the K. Granted, this happens easy if opponent is not used to dealing with Blaze.

However, as KoD is indirectly pointing out: counterhit PPP means that the counterhit only applies to the first punch and the next two will hit normal hit. This means that in practise Blaze is always at -4 after PPP hits, unless some abnormal situation makes the last punch hit as counter (which is impossible unless blaze delays or opponent like blocks/evades first punches etc).

Hence I see this as something everybody should learn from, how to deal with Blaze. Once you condition yourself to elbowing after you get hit by PPP then only things you have to worry about is the last K and evade. This is kind of like how I talked about Sarah's PPd+K long time ago. It works only as long as the opponent doesnt wise up. Im not saying that its a bad string, but success depends on both the opponent and how good you are mixing it up with proper mixups like PPPK / PPP,lowthrow or PPP, df+P.

When Ive played Dai Bisons Blaze in online I never thought PPP was particularly nasty to deal with. On comparison, Dai Bison uses /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif where the last kick is special high and +3 on block.

 

I love how I actually end my post like this at the end and still get shit thrown back at me. At first I was going to rant here but I'll leave it at that.

Note; I'm not saying PPPK never hits or that PPP doesn't confuse sometimes (mainly because of his stanceshifting animation imo) so that there can become a freeze response. This opens up the game a bit by all means. I question more some of the basic assumptions that the post seems to govern around. The responses are shifted and the things you should be doing at -4 (like fuzzy etc) instead are shifted to be those of your opponent and his (using mids etc) are yours. That's the general tendancy I see, is it so extremly wrong that it's eyebrowraising? A lot of stuff has happened in this thread since then though - here are a bit of responses from me that don't have to be right, are in my opinion and so on.

Firstly; I find it futile to use "you never know what your opponent is going to do as a reaction" as a justification for flowcharts posted. Why? Cause then you can list basically every single move in the game after as a flowchart and retort with the same answer.

Second; I don't either understand how people on a discussion board condemn discussions. If you don't want them - go away, don't look, or don't post material. Different people learn in different ways, some peoples games actually get helped by reading a lot and understanding situations whether you want it to be so or not. Just the fact that THEY believe it helps them should be enough reason for you to be respectful about it even if you don't agree with the notion. God it must be boring sitting on a fightinggameboard waiting for others to post just to write that they shouldn't discuss theory.

Thirdly; I extremly disagree with +4/-4 being the same situation or that it doesn't matter as it's "all mindgames". Give me a jacky 6p and make it +4 on guard and let me play you if you really believe that frames don't matter. It's almost an arrogant assumption imo. In general in a game with a hard core system you should be playing along with that system - not swimming uphill. Notice "In general". This is where some people say the "adapt" things again and "yomi" but the truth is if I was to play blaze and do 46p+k everytime I was +2 instead of 3p I would lose a lot of damage in the long run. This should also tell that the best flowcharts are those who go according to system cause they can be applied everywhere (up to a point) - more so then those who break them. The best flowchart you can teach a newcomer is 2p > throw / mid cause it's the one that's closest to VF's core. In a blaze vs blaze MU you're @risk of CH 46p+k against you every time you try attacking out of the problem of -4 (save highpunch but that's more a technicality). 46p+k CH hurts...

Now that's my viewpoint on things in life and fightinggames and even if they don't have to be true now you know where I'm coming from. Now I'd like to go back to the original post and show some comments I have on the information posted.

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PPP->3P(You assume they're going to duck) <--- What about lowthrow? You list it later on in an argument also. PPP > lowthrow has been around ages and works wonders ingame against people who for instance don't guard Pai / Lau PPP2K on reaction but on instinct. Backdash (small) > mid also works nice here cause you in that case can win against 2p also and get a stagger. Backdash 1p might also be very nice. You write happily to Beligerent_Feck that you're happy if he fuzzy's cause then you can lowthrow him after PPP on normalhit. No you can't?

PPP->8P+K(You assume they're going to duck)<---- This would look much better to me if it was you assumed the were going to 2p instead of ducking 24frames in their advantage.

PPP->2K+G(You assume they're going to attack High, Sidestep or OM) <--- This I find to be a huge problem. You're recommending to use a 21f attack out of -4 point blank at your opponent (PPP put you close). You do so to stop OM/Sidestep. He'll get a failed DM anyways for doing so at +4 and the attackthreat you pose with PPPK is fully circular so this doesn't make sense at all. Basicly you could use most (better) moves as delayattacks against him if you believe he'll evade after PPP without delay.

PPP->1K+G(You assume they're going to attack High or Mid*Note this varies towards certain characters on Mids) <--- Same logic as above applies. I question the risk/payoff in using this as an anti high weapon in general. Can you explain how you would use this against mids since you write "certain characters"?

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Peace love and a bag of chips /KiwE

 

Of course he does, but like with any character, you have to disguise it.

For example getting hit into a -4 is alot different than being guarded into a -4.

Feck, I would throw people at -6 and -9 on the regular, with Sarah.

 

Ok then what's the point of jumping in so fast to argue with somebody who's main is El Blaze and has gotten all of this info from one of the best El Blaze's in the U.S.?
Wouldn't it make sense to try this stuff out first?
To me, this is the problem: it doesn't "look good" on paper so you guys immediately jump in to argue it BEFORE you even test it or consider where it's coming from.

I wonder if CidKid or AdamYuki tried posting some of their strats and what they like to do in certain situations if you guys would come out as quickly to argue it? After all, these guys have proven that their tactics work.
I wonder if you would still try telling Adam to NOT do knee after he gets hit with PK and gets put in a -4 situation? But guess what? It works! (No, he doesn't do it all the time but if he thinks he's got it, watch out!) It might not work on paper but due to GOOD READING of your opponent these players can do that and more and make it work. The whole "moral" or "you shouldn't do that/this in that scenario" goes out the window when you have a good idea of what your opponent is going to go for.

I think it's even more boring to wait for people to post "tried and vetted strats" and then come in and counter it with "paper strats".
Everybody knows that an extremely good player wouldn't fall for El Blaze's PPPhit (-4) tactics most of the time but how many players here can and will react correctly most of the time? Sure ShinobiFist didn't name this thread correctly but I didn't think he was saying:
"El Blaze's PPPhit (-4) is so uber that you're in total control and here's all the stuff you can do!"
I thought what he said was:
"Once El Blaze's PPPhit (-4) it's so easy to hitcheck that here are some options other than fuzzy guarding."

 

noooo don't bash moral, it's not the same as "you shouldn't do that/this in that scenario" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

no but seriously it's not, or atleast I don't think it is.

 

Adam doing knee at -4 makes good obvious sense. It wont clash in that situation and it does a ton of damage. That doesnt mean that he's going around advocating doing jeff 2k+g normal hit ~ knee as punishment. The way more WTF situations with adam are when he does stuff like knee (blocked) knee again and it hits people . . .

Telling people that PPPK is special high, or that PPP on counter hit is great, or that jeff cant do anything when he guards lei 66P, or that evade ~ sidekick will crumple, or jeff's knee wont clash, or any of many other things that have been said by some of the players in question on and off line . . . if these things make sense, it is not in any obvious way, to say the least.

Proving that something can work against the people you play is a different thing from understanding why something works (or doesn't work). Both have their value.

 

Manjimaru: I have seen KiwE play. I'm not one to just randomly attack people. And I didn't really mean it to be offensive. I just thought it was pretty common knowledge, haha.

social_ruin: what you said is correct; it's very important to know what your options are. That's how frames are helpful, they give you a very useful angle on situations. But there are many, many, MANY more angles you need to take into account, otherwise you'll be the worse for it. Believe it or not frames can make you a worse player!

KoD: no, this thread isn't necessarily about PPP as punishment, it's about PPP in general. If you remember my original post, I said one of the greatest things about PPP is that it's so easy to hit-check. If you're at +11, hopefully you won't be worrying about hit-checking. I thought this thread was about PPP on hit, REGARDLESS of how it hit.

And while everything you said about the differences between +4 and -4 are true, there are still a ton of head-games that can occur there. Both players have SEVERAL options, so nothing is set in stone WHATSOEVER. That was my original point. Not that they're the same, not that -4 is a great situation to be in, but that you can't think about frames too much in that situation. Know enough to know what is stupid, but use your skills as a fighter the rest of the way.

That's what I meant when I said that it's viable when set up properly, essentially. For anyone who doesn't know, a set-up and a flow-chart have significant differences.

The only difference is in perception. Buffer your inputs correctly, and it's the same thing. And that's one of the beauties of PPP: it's easy to buffer shit in.

Bad buffering, bad observation, bad composure. Anybody who gets hit by this needs to stop looking at frames and get back to the drawing board, because people like CidKid and Adam will eat you up. And you won't even taste that good~

But yeah, my intention wasn't to insult anyone, or to make you think I though PPP is awesome. Cuz it isn't. But it has its strengths, and if you're not a good enough player, a better player can stomp you.

So if you're playing Blaze, learn how to make the best use of PPP (especially the fact that the move is RIDICULOUSLY easy to hit check). And if you're fighting Blaze, learn your options after you get hit by it.

 

But I thought that's what I just said, but cool thanks for reiterating.

 

Where exactly?

In my opinion they should indeed look at frames and realize Adam should be eating guaranteed elbows or combos. Tbh that tells more about his opponents than it tells about Adams skills.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So if you're playing Blaze, learn how to make the best use of PPP (especially the fact that the move is RIDICULOUSLY easy to hit check). And if you're fighting Blaze, learn your options after you get hit by it. </div></div>
Yeah, all of two options required to beat the blaze list on first page.

 

explain?

*gets a cup of tea*

 

In one sentence, it's a sense of stuff being finished or not.