Standing PPP Mixups

wat

 

The perception part, which is what disguising actually does. I said disguising in the first sentence of my post you didn't quote.

I thought we were on the same page, it's the same but you make it alot different when you disguise it. The big difference being hitting something into being -4 or being guarded into being -4.

 

Here's the thing, you could play the game ANYWAY you want. Being random fucks with your opponent alot, but there's huge as risk as well. And if everyone plays the game according to frame data (100%) Everyone will look like robots playing this game. Frame data is important, don't get me wrong, it help me on certain situations I didn't know about when I got into VF. But being random helps as well. That's why I have Mike Tyson's quote in my Sig "Everyone has a plan, until they get hit" Purpose of this list is for people to be aware on what to look out for. It seems strange, but it works, but that depends on the fighter as well. Is just other options(Like Tony stated) to do after PPP. The title to the thread is misleading. Is should of been what Tony stated earlier. I'll get a mod to fix it

 

Your terminology is what threw me off, but yes, now I see. "The disguising inherent in the nature of the game" is essentially what you meant, am I right? Semantics regardless... we are indeed on the same page.

Youtube. It's a marvelous place full of wonder and mysticism.
Check it out at http://www.youtube.com. Pretty cool website.

 

Youtube, the best way to gauge skills.

 

Yeah somewhat. my bad if I confused you on what I was saying, btw.

 

although i can understand it's hard to see the difference between adv or dis after being hit.
thats where textbook knowlege wins..

generally, blaze chose to finish the string ending in -4.

he has -4 options.

he'll lose to -4 stuff.


*UNLESS*
he never played the -4 and plays the canned K instead.

which is a different story.

 

Jeneric, while I am usually a proud lover of the art of sarcasm, you seem a little confused. You're not really going to make me go into it, are you? The bad buffering, the poor move choices, the rampant whiffing, the wasted movement, the self-imposed limitations? C'mon, seriously? I'm just being honest here.

Sure, he's got some good set-ups. Some decent combos. And good knowledge of frames... There were a number of times that I learned new things from reading the things KiwE wrote, especially when I was new to the site. He's helpful and (usually) not disrespectful, and he types up shit, which is doing more than 90% of the people who have been playing for as long as he has actually do.

They have their reasons for doing what they do. And what KiwE does is greatly appreciated, by me, and by most of the website I'm quite sure.

 

I don't think Youtube is that good of a place to gauge skills. Personally I think every video of me that has gone online in some form is awful, lol.

I mean, look at this

 

Random players that don't play by frames steal more games away from me then the players that do play a game strongly based on frames.

And this is why most players are just to darn predictable at times. These are the type of players that I believe can never hold an impressive winning steak (no offensive Beligerent Feck I think you are a decent Akria player). These are players with a very good understanding of the game mechanics but at the same time that very knowledge is what prevents them from reaching their full potential. For example I can conclude that because "so and so" will never throw at -4 he will either continue to attack or apply defensive tactics(Fuzzy, ETEG, which both can be beaten) even if he connected a move that leaves him at -4 when hit. Not only will it be extremely easy to notice his patterns but it will make things much easier to apply an successful attack against him. Too make matters worse, because "so and so" has this mentally he will do things in repetition subconsciously which means he will do the same pattern consistently and once the guessing game is over then you will never win much no matter how good you are in other areas.

This is my take on things, I don't win more because I know more then what most people know. Adam,Konjou and CIDKID don't win more either because they know more about the game then the rest of the people here do. The reason they win more is because they think more, plain and simple. They use common sense and that's more effective then knowing frames. CIDKID by the way doesn't have much knowledge on frames at all. I'm not saying frames aren't helpful hell yea it is if you want to become stronger but its not end all be all. I mean hell at every gathering when Adam, me or Konjou wants advice who do we ask? KOD of course, that guy is like the bible of VF knowledge. In terms of VF knowledge KOD I believe is by far superior then anybody in NYC that's for sure but even though hes getting better by the day it doesn't mean hes ready to take one of us out at a tourney. This should prove a point. Shinobifist posted some great PPP setups with Blaze (minus PPP then 1p which is perhaps his strongest when mixed with mids) their is no ONE way to avoid El blaze offensive advances which means you got yourself a mind game -4 or not and that was the point to begin with.

 

Jeneric, haha, that's actually one of my better matches online!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif And yeah, it's true, I totally suck. Just like KiwE. What an awesome place to be.

Full props to Denkai. Great write-up, thanks a ton.

 

Shinobifist I changed the thread title to ppp mixups, hope thats more in line with what you meant, if not let me know & I'll fix it. As for your comment that you can play the game any way you want, on the one hand I kinda agree with you, but on the other hand, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do at +15 that is worth the risk of eating a MC knee, as compared to just taking your guaranteed damage.

Hahah, thats putting it politely to say the least. I also don't think have a lot of vf knowledge - I'm pretty lazy, but I just like to figure out specific esoteric things. Other than that totally agree with your post.

 

LMAO! Dude, all 3 of us Florida guys that went to that last Cali gathering were playing awful (more so than usual) due to the fact that we were still PS3 pad players during that time.
I had 1 month old 360 that we rarely played because both Ladon and Incident were not that good on the stick yet and I refused to play with the stick. I was playing with a crappy GameStop pad /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbs_down.gif

Anyway, whether you think that's an excuse or not, the sad part is: even with how bad all 3 of us played out there while we were trying to adapt to the 360 pad/stick, those vids of us out there don't look as bad as Kiwe's OFFLINE vids.
But hey, maybe he has an excuse too as to why he would do things like Brad's 33PP without hit-checking the first P. Not even once.

This is the thing I hate about VF, everybody can play a mean game of Theory Fighter on these boards but with other fighting games, you can't just come in and start spewing crap about how you would do this and that because the focus is higher on actual, precise execution of moves.
So you can talk real tough about how you would have DP'd your opponent out of his Super on wakeup BUT can you actually do it?

Anybody can come on here and talk like they know how to play the game:
"Umm, no dude, you don't throw at -4, what are you thinking? Here's what you should do..."
all you have to do is be good at math /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Oh, and before you go through the trouble of finding a vid of me playing horribly, here you go http://www.youtube.com/user/tonyfamilia
Warning: I SUCK X( but I prefer being a bad player than a good theory fighter '^_^'
No disrespect, Kiwe, I really do think that you are an awesome theory fighter, even better than Sebo... but at least Sebo admits to not being very good at applying all of his VF text knowledge during actual fights.

 

Videos, tend to not do players that much justice. Partly because, you can watch matches, and think of all kinds of "coulda shoulda" and other hindsight type stuff that has nothing to do with what actually was happening at that point in time.

Also the way you're playing is cooperative with what your opponent is doing too. You rise or fall depending on both playing.

It's still a decent guideline, entertaining, and all that stuff.

There's some match videos of players getting owned or playing kind of sloppy, and then someone would rate it low or comment saying the player sucks... but then you'd often have someone that knows who the player is, or has actually played him/her and would vouch. There's even times where someone would say the player sucks, but thought that same player was the greatest ever, in a previous video, but just didn't know who it was in either one.

Thing is though, thing is, if some shit is highly agreed upon as being weak, it might be weak.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove to me, correct me about, or anything like that. So, I'm just going to agree with you, and say yeah.

 

Whatever you think, Im saying this, with an experience of over half a decade of doing the same mistake: never assume player skill level on youtube vids.

It is impossible to understand what goes on in those vids, unless the players in it are total scrubs you can read like a book. You cannot see the situation the matches were played at, be it tournament, random casual or whatever. You cannot see the possible pressure the players played at.
You cannot see the matches that went before it, so the match youre looking at is where the players have already started to adapt and play mind games (or start suffering brain-freeze).

You only see one possible outcome of those mind games, not what the players are thinking. You cannot see the mindgames in the vids, because you dont see the options that already went on before this match. And unless you know the theory well, watching what actually happens doesnt make you much wiser either, in addition to not understanding the reasons for players choices.

And of course, most people play worse than the vids that get uploaded, some people play much better. Tournament vids especially are usually down-and-dirty not-so-glamorous vids where people make mistakes under pressure.

In addition, people who have played each other for years play totally differently when they are playing random opponents.

Every time there is a gathering I am reminded of this truth.

ps. Granted, KiwE IS a theory-fighter, and his main weakness is lack of versus exposure, but I felt compelled to defend him at least from wrong kind of arguments.

pps. To quote my aikido-teacher: "Don't do what I do, do as I say!"

 

I actually factored that in when I said all of two options are necessary to beat Blaze's list on first page. Instant elbowspeed attack or duck->launcher. Blaze actually guarding might require a third option, depending whether you want to punish the other option with a throw instead of launcher.

Thats what being in disadvantage means. It limits your 'real' options.

Its true that PPP is better than I make it sound here, simply because the last kick HAPPENS to be safe on block. And lots of people's first reaction is to block. This is why PPP->throw is actually an ok idea. It depends on how your opponent reacts to the string. The other 'real' option Blaze has, evade or evade-attack is not half bad either since Blaze can go to rocket discharge from his evade attack.

But instead of people getting owned by PPP and thinking its an awesome move, I felt compelled to tell people where we are at.

ps. I also suck.

pps. What Denkai said is also true: its a different thing having knowledge and applying it. That should not, however, be a reason NOT to express our knowledge here at forums where all the world can see it. Otherwise we'd never advance anywhere. Maybe someone can put that knowledge into practise where we can not.
Also, for some people being theory fighters is most they can do. Not everyone has people to play against.

 

If the OP or my other posts came of like that, it was never intended to be like that. I just wanted post some mixups for his string that I find very useful. I should of added the -4 into the OP and explaining that the string doesn't put the opponent in a nitaku situation. The OP is very vanilla in the introduction. It seems you could go from one move to the next. When that's not the case. I should of mention in the introduction that you have to be patient as well for those mixups. Next time I'll make a thread, I'll make it as detail as possible. Props to everyone for their inputs. Even the haters I kid.

 

slide, i wasnt trying to be a mean guy-



you had initally corrected me by saying -4 on hit is different to -4 on block.

i am saying that dis on hit or on block is dealt the same,


the difference would simply be visual unawareness.

this can be trained up, dude -

 

No worries. I wish people would write more. That includes myself, hehe. No matter what way you write, someone can always critisize it one way or another. So best to just write what you believe in. People will pick it up.

ps. I didnt know Blazes PPP was -4 on normal hit until I checked it prior making my first post on this thread. I knew it was disadvantage though /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

Now don't get me wrong. I was the first one to praise shinobifist for taking the time to compile a very useful list and also the first one to warn about arguing scemantics. But --

I still feel the fact that the string lacks the option for a mid ender hurts el blaze very badly - his punch string is not like lau/pai/sarah/aoi strings where the ending can also be mid and low. Maybe if the last hit was special high? But right now a fast high crush move shuts down many of the options cited in the first post.

Please note i'm not talking theory fighter here, i'm talking about me doing vane's defensive elbow / short upper during Blaze's ppp with decent results. I am quite confident that several other characters have similar fast high crush moves, akira's f,f+p+k, aoi's b,df+p, lion's b+p,p, kage's overhead slap e.t.c. (I am still waiting for someone with more rounded experience to make a list -- i like lists). Other characters' high crush moves might be more difficult to execute than vanessa's, i'll grant you that. On the other hand, half of VFdc seems to be able to do modified dblplms without wasting a single frame, so that's not saying much.

I do feel that, like manjimaru has already pointed out, strings with the option for a mid savate are better suited for the mixups detailed in the first post. I know those are what Shaka Zulu 1 uses to mess me up /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Of course, at positive frames many of these options will beat slower high crush mids /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Which makes for a decent mindgame in the heat of the battle.