i figured this out by a miss-judged DLC, a real example why i HATE vf4's new Tekken/DOA style combos! d/f+p+k(counter hit) f+P+K(on the rise), straight in to DLC the first hit knocks them on the floor, and the rest just bounces them!!, i thought kage was bad, but vf4 seems like it's turning more shallow with it's reliability toward combos rather than game tech this ISNT TEKKEN!!! what's next? floor-juggling the SPoD!!??, yeah, the day that happens i'll eat my cat!!