Suggestion Board [U.S. keeping up with the Asian VF players]

From the report by Hyum and VFDC team's experience against the best in the VF World. We in the U.S. are obviously not at a qual footing. So besides for our disadvantage in lack of popularity of VF and the arcade stick issue involving the U.S. team. What can we do with our existing VF players and abilities to hopefully bring our game to another level and beyond? /versus/images/icons/confused.gif

 

i suggest not doing anything at all, we're in the 4th vf game and nothing has changed, i think by now we should just give up dreaming of a large healthy vf competition in the usa and accept that USA just doesnt like VF. just be happy and keep playing the game, its their loss (the non vf playing public).

 

I think Pic. hit on a good poing - a large pool of steady competition...but I think we can analyze our weaknesses and assertain how we can do better.

 

The lack of general interest is what hurts us though. *IF* we could somehow generate more interest in the current VF games it would help us greatly. VF1 was revolutionary and had pretty good success in the US. VF2 received the absolute most success due to it's smooth gameplay and overall good looks. VF3 was beautiful, but tanked due to the excessive playing price and honestly not giving much over the VF2 experience. Can't leave out the Tekken factor as well with it being generally easier for a newer player to adapt to than VF. Since then US arcades have been struggling very hard (Even Japanese arcades are as well.) in recent years with low attendance it's time for the arcades to progress and once again offer better technology than a console or they will die. They are very close now. NAMCO and CAPCOM fighters are the only ones having success in US arcades right now. Although, it should be noted that the latest VS, Tekken 4, and SC2 games aren't getting much praise from hardcore fighting fans due to very basic and ofttimes cheap gameplay. VS infinites, T4 heavy poke play, and SC2 with it's sheer offensive gameplay and many low frame unblockable attacks.

It is time for VF to revamp itself. That and we fans need to speak up more and try to start organizing ourselves. Equipment arguments are given in every fighter I know of with International Tourneys. I personally like to play with Korean-style setups (Laser sticks, Convex digital buttons, and loose sticks), but that is not found in any US arcade.

Maybe we should all think about working on a US Fighting Game Organization to help us with better competitions, sponsorship, and let arcades know that some still care. Too bad we have so many Putt-Putt's, Twin Galaxies, and Golflands closing down.

If we are going to compete with the rest of the world, we need to focus our attention on doing it and not wondering why we can't. Just my .02 on the subject. I've been playing fighters ever since Yie Are Kung Fu and Karate Champ. I don't see myself quitting anytime soon. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

When someone new comes into VF on a whim, and they buy it in the store and play it with buddies...pretty much nothing you say or do will alter the outcome, at least on this board. They'll either enjoy playing with their friends or get bored.

But.. if a serious VF player ever happens to be in a position where they can play someone new to the game, I think the best thing you can do for VF in the USA is go easy on them and instruct them with as much advice as you feel comfortable giving. It's hard working up the nerve to offer advice to a stranger, but if you say "you can get out of that ground throw by tapping df+P+G" or "next time you block that move you have a free throw or PPP" you can give them a little hope. I'll actually tell someone "you can throw me if you block this move" and then throw that move out on purpose, let them block it, and hold guard... just to see if they're interested enough to use my advice. Don't worry about your fifty cents.

If you're a scrub, it's already frustrating to get systematically destroyed in a game, and not know why. It's worse when the person next to you is cold and merciless. Maybe there's something about the attitude and demeanor of koreans and japanese that encourages new people to keep playing, while in americans it encourages them to go away.

 

The big difference I have noticed between US and Asian gamers (Specifically Fighting Game Otaku's) is that US fans tend to let their ego get in the way of letting someone learn. That isn't to say that all Asians are helpful, but in my experiences from playing with friends/associates all over the US and many people from Japan, Korea, and the Phillipines it seems this way. I would say that 1 in 10 US players I have came against in casual play have been of the type to offer help if they see you falling for a basic trap or move. While those that I met from various Asian nations over here on business, school, or vacation would have been in the 6 out of 10 range. It seems most US players want to play to dominate and most Asian players want to play to master the game. Both want to acheive the same ultimate goal of being the best, but have different avenues to acheive it. Although, another factor comes into effect that ruins many peopls experiences. I hate this word, but everyone knows it. "Scrub". Every mall, arcade, and convenience store in the world has that hack player that learns a couple tricks and abuses every new player they can or gain a victory over an established player.

These players are unfortunately shown as the average player too much. I play mostly Tekken Tag or Tekken 4 at local arcades (Since they have most competition and machines aren't completely janked yet>_<), but it gets the same focus of players. Although, there are some us that still play who don't mind giving a round or two to help someone get the hang of a combo, counter, or reversal. Many players though are afraid they may lose their token, win streak, or place in line so they just win and don't help. Then they complain about no competition. Also, too many scrubs pull the "Noob Angle" and pretend to be a new player then catch a vet by surprise for a win. So many people are suspicious now. Hell, in my area it's not uncommon to see punches thrown because a scrub pulled some janky crap on someone for the win.>_<

I take my gaming seriously and try to win, but I would rather learn something new to use later than win anyday. I like to hang out with good players and see what works well and if I can make it more effective. My thoughts are it's better to improve than to imitate. Although, imitation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just don't expect everyone to applaud your choice of gameplay.

Next time at your game machine: Talk to the other person and not talk at them.

 

Personally.. I think many people hit on some very good points. But I've always thought that the lack of interest in VF is simple a lack of a good source of information. Any tekken player would know about Zaibatsu, and they can easily find strategies/movies that will help them see what is high level play. In the case of virtua fighter, we suffer from an inherent fault, the steep learning curve of this game. It's very hard to give good strategies and advice to people because frankly, there is too many ways to go about any situation in the world of VF. This is not the case with most other fighting games. It's also easy to say that, media wise there are lots of japanese movies. I don't think that is a legit reason to not release movies of US players even if we are not quite on par with the asian players. The reason is that the majority of the casual players do not care enough about VF to go to a japanese page, babelfish it, or whatever to figure out who's playing in the clip, how to download/access the clip, and read any comments about the clip, etc. Plus, most people that don't play this game hardcore is not going to want to see japanese player cause of a lack of connection. It's the same reason why not as much people watch things like arena football, european soccer etc.. Most people that I see playing VF in the arcades just do NOT know all the kinds of things that are possible in this game. It's easy to say, just go into tutorial mode in training and learn it! This is not the right thing to do imo, cause the tutorial is pretty repetitive at points and simply too boring sometimes. It actually kind of creates the opposite effect of what it's intended to do. It almost makes people feel like "who does this crap in a real match?" The VF community as a whole feels very closed and foreign, it definitely doesn't feel as accessible as other games. I think the real key to making VF bigger in the US is simple. We need to take part doing things that make it clear that "Yes there are people in the US that plays this game","Yes the system is deep and rewarding","Yes it can be learned","Yes people DO do the things they show you in the tutorials". I think the easiest way to accomplish this is just posting clips up on the internet. Getting questions answered on a forum is usually a gamble, you might get good answers, you might get flames, you might wait weeks, or you may get an instant reply. Videos are different, they may not be as specific, or as detailed as a good forum reply brings. What's good about it, however, is that videos can be downloaded and watch at anytime, and you don't have to go through the gamble of forums. The most important aspect though imo, is that videos show that REAL and LOCAL people really plays this game! and there is really alot of depth to this game! That, I believe, is what people are looking for. Japanese/Korean people may be good, but in a sense, they don't really matter at all. How good they are/how they play doesn't even fit into the equation when the US scene is concerned. I think one of the things people on VFDC should consider doing is to NOT concern themselves with self pity. When you can beat people in your local area, does it matter that chibita is better than you if you most likely will never play people at that level? Things always start at a local level. I certainly don't think the japanese people were concerned about being better than other countries, they focus on themselves. That is what's important.

/versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

I try to coach players to improve their game

VF isnt popular because its not easy to pick up and people just dont understand the game engine. I've seen plenty of people play and they get befuddled on how they got hit or thrown. Here are some examples to my responses.

That's a mid attack, it has to be blocked high.
You can roll by hitting all the buttons as soon as you touch the ground
You cant pounce on someone EVERY time you knock someone down
That's a counter. Some characters can counter your attack if they know its coming.
Some characters can throw you if your ducking.

I can go on but I'm sure most of us get the point. Most of them just stare blanky and go "Huh" and then those are some that pay heed and go "Oh, OK, thanks for the tip"

 

Re: I try to coach players to improve their game

I definitely agree with that Shag. Which is why I think there is not enough accessible information about this game. An easy example is that many scrubby lion players do d+K,K because
1) it's easy to do
2) it hits low
3) it's relatively fast
4) it usually gives them a pounce against other scrubby players.

But what they do NOT know is that against certain characters, getting that move blocked will get you to eat an elbow or a low throw, and in the case of low throws, it's huge damage that is almost impossible to avoid for beginners. They then think the game is bull shit, cause they are used to being able to attack away and pressure the opponent. Which is something most other fighting games promote somewhat.

I'm sure that if they knew about that information about getting that move blocked and the consequences, they will know that the game is not BS and they will consider twice before throwing out that move again.

 

I personally don't care much for tourneys or for more people to play VF that are not interested or can't see the game's full potiential. I am just saying we should make more creative and effective suggestions other than about sponsorship of tourneys and more exposure for the game. People are doing what we should be doing which is talking on IRC getting together in causal meeting and gathering with friends and rivals. I just hope we all get feebacks and methods that will bring our game closer to the Koreans and the Japanese. Look at it this way with such a small community of people in the U.S. VF scene, we all know each other and can communicate more effectively. Until that day when they have to come to us for a challenge. I say best of luck to the future U.S. teams that are going to challenge the Koreans and Japanese Teams. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

Anyway they need someone else besides each other to complete against. It wouldn't be fair to them or us that they have all the freaking fun. Besides I don't like it when someone gets too confident or cocky for their own good./versus/images/icons/grin.gif

P.S. Please be nice to the scrub next to you and smile /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif , thank you.

 

Generally, the level of fighting game players in the US is lower than Asia. Sure, we have a handful of outstanding players for certain games but the average level is pretty low. With that said, I think few people are truly ready for VF. They either lack the basic fighting game knowledge or the dedication this game requires. A good player needs to have the desire to become better and also be willing to put the effort in to get there. If you want to improve, you need to make sure you know the basics such as the concept of frames, defensive techniques and how movement works. Without a solid foundation, it will be easy to pick you apart in battle as your weaknesses will be apparent to experienced players. I find that to be the biggest problem among players I have fought. They don't understand the situations they are in and can't properly defend so you have to not only learn your character offensively and defensively but all of the others as well. There are really many more things I could mention but it is a solid grasp of the basics that will help the most because from there you can go on your own.

 

What Shou said is something that I think it more and more true the more I play VF. There are too many things that is important to know about playing this game. None of which can really be 'taught' to someone. It's something that only comes from more playing, more exposure, and more experience. There are so many things that you can learn simply from playing this game, but you will not experience these 'revelations' unless you play this game with dedication. Playing a few rounds a day will not give you the same effect as say playing a hundred rounds in a sitting. This is a hurtle that must be conquered on one's own; but on the other hand, without opponents, this is not possible. It's really difficult to figure out a solution around this situation, more input on this issue should be shared.

/versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
This is a hurtle that must be conquered on one's own; but on the other hand, without opponents, this is not possible. It's really difficult to figure out a solution around this situation, more input on this issue should be shared.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I've dealt with for over half a year now. Locally, there is no one close to my level in VF (and this isn't to put down anyone in STL /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif) but I think I've improved greatly in that time span. This is partly due to attending gatherings such as NYG3 where I had the opportunity to play many other people and could see the problems in my play. At the gathering, I probably spent an equal amount of time asking better players questions and playing against people. Afterwards, I reflected on why I lost matches and went from there. Obviously, not everyone has the means to travel and play but if you're dedicated, you will find a way. So, again, it's the dedication that will get you further. Traveling to play people is unfortunately a must for most in the States.

 

You can only be as good as your competion, so when the U.S. has so few good players in VF4, simply because there's so few VF4 players in general, then how can we compete against the top Koreans and Japanese players were their VF players outnumber us by a rediculous margin? If everyone on this board all lived in one town and we all went to one arcade, then things would be a lot different because our competition would be in greater numbers, and our skill level would increase more rapidly because of it. But when you only get to play against a few guys in your town, because that's all the VF players your town has, then it's really hard for your skill level to increase esp. when you're just practicing against a few guys who only bring a few styles for you to learn against. The top guys overseas have experience against hundreds of different types of players, and so they take in all that information and it shows when they play because they know more set ups and they know how to avoid set ups better than us because they have experience against them.

 

Maybe one day ... fast enough internet connections will allow us to play VF online or any other game that isn't online now for that matter ~ that would certainly help games pickup much faster ~~~

 

edit: Because this post (my lengthy bitching about VFDC) wasn't really tied closely to the topic, I moved it to replicant's "first step" thread. It's something I want to discuss with others if they're willing, but it doesn't need to interfere with the discussion about north american VF as a whole (VFDC isn't at the root of the lack of US players).

 

well i think LA side is doing pretty well with a large competition base. We're getting new players every months thanks to a healthy batch of tekken players/converts that exist here.

 

Personally, i think american players arent friendly with each other. We all get to angry over silly shit. I think we should adopt the philosophy, as long as you play VF, your cool and should be treated with respect.

 

The main problem with VF is that it does in the beginning what other fighting games takes months to do: weed out weak players. If you play any decent fighting game long enough sooner or later the players without the wits, reflexes, and hunger will be left in the dust. It's fighting game nature. Other fighting games give you some good crutches in the beginning to stand on but as time goes along the better players will jack those crutches and you're left face first on the pavement. After that it's up to the player to decide if he has the will and strength to keep going and walk on his own. Now this lack of crutches may sound like a bad idea but in 90% of the games that have them allows a truly sick player to use those same crutches and beat you over the head with them. VF has very little of this and that's what makes VF good. It's takes the traits of truly good players, stresses them in the beginning, and makes sure all the work and dedication isn't for naught.

VF's problems also coincide with the problems of the whole fighting game genre. These games are elitist by their very nature and they stress the survival of the fittest rule. This fucks a lot of potential players from jumpstreet. The things that fighting games stress are things a lot of people don't want to do or believe(especially game nerds). Basically you have to have the mindset to play fighting games properly. To be a winner at anything takes work and that harsh reality alone can drive people away. As hardcore as I am about fighting games I've been shocked by insane amount of knowledge and skill it takes to play these games properly. Fighting games are just not for people who have no dedication or easily bruised egos.