Swallowing a character

I've been lazy as of late with VF (getting involved with a ton of things ranging from work to my other hobbies), but I want to get back to it and come up with an active plan. As we all know, the biggest issue in any game is getting the controls down. I think i'm relatively competent sidestepping and using the basic controls, even if i am sometimes dyslexic with my finger inputs (for example, if you tell me to do 3p4kk 9p2k or something wild like that it'll come out 3pk4k 9p3k or something of that nature), i figure that just goes away over time. I want to know how to focus on swallowing the entirety of a character's moveset, so i know when to hit what buttons. I've seen some resources here, but I feel the focus a bit on already having a bit of experience in fighting games in general (i have rather mediocre experience). So, for my own benefit as well as the benefit of someone else who may read this, I would like to chronicle this as well as seek advice so others may follow.

Firstly, I want to assume that everyone starts out fighting games by mashing random buttons and hoping they win, which seems to be the average outsider's opinion of what people do (they see this because this is what they do). This is a natural response, and if you were to pick 100 people of the street and make them go into a battle royale, odds are the good majority are going to be swinging wildly (which i equate to mashing in a fighting game). I also want to assume that, as people start realizing that a certain direction of flailing works, they try to control that flailing ever so slightly to favor the flailing that works (because if they "spam" that particular flail, people counter it).

If this is all to be so, then the best thing to do is for people to try to find a spot where they can narrow down their flailing to mostly successful attacks that hit and do damage, while allowing some degree of defensive capability to allow it to be something other than just back and for flailing and the winner goes to whom either can take the most hits or, rather, break their opponent's damage threshold faster, since you will always find someone who can move faster (and hit buttons faster in video games). My boxing teacher/coach tries to keep us playing footsies just outside of our opponent's punching range, that way they can't harm us without moving which is enough to give us a cue to either guess what they're trying and counter it, or to move out of the way. At least against the AI and moderately against the one human opponent i've had, that strategy seems to work well for me in VF5FS as well. So i'm training myself to deal with threats in the following way (as Brad, but i figure that the characters are overall generic enough this probably works for all [and i hope it to be so for the general community at large]):

When the opponent is not making the first move, try for 1K or 4K for that range poke, since coming in for the faster options will give away that i'm on the offense.

When the opponent is coming in, either try to create distance again and retaliate with 1K or 4K as a ranged wiff-punisher or sidestep (since it's pretty fair to assume that they aren't doing a 360 attack if i'm playing my range right) and use P if i don't think they'll do a high crushing strike upon entering, 2P if i think they'll do the high crush, 3P if i think the risk is worth the reward.

And then i proceed to enter and flail if I'm still far away, or i straight up flail if i'm still close, until one of us is on the ground and distance can be created again to repeat the process. If i fail to hit, I go to block mode and try to get out of there.

Obviously it's not an entirely viable strategy, and it's not exactly winning me matches, but rather i flail less and still win more than simple flailing, so obviously i'm on the right track. So, what is my next step? Do i try to swallow every initial move (direction + attack button)? Should I instead focus on the strings that follow those moves that I'm hitting with? Should I focus on launchers to get combo damage out of those few frames of surprise i get from my opponent when their attack fails? What should my next small step be (i've learned the hard way that trying to swallow entire move lists or character guides as a whole lead no where, of course)?

So far, that one human opponent has suggested that I focus on launchers since it'd give me the damage potential to stop being a whipping boy (obviously not his exact words).

 

I'm no expert, but my two cents:

-Many of these forums have Top 10 Moves lists for help in quantifying the most consistently effective moves for your character. If you haven't already, start there. It's easier to learn with a small stable of good moves and work up. You don't need to know all of your moves to play effectively.

-Free Training has features to help you get the most out of your attacks. CPU Reactions like "Block & Counterattack" help you learn the ins and outs of your frame advantage, the value of delayed strings, and the situations that come from them. Once you become familiar with where they work best, you'll probably notice holes in what they can do. Eventually you'll incorporate other pieces of your movelist to complete the puzzle.

-1K isn't great. It's unlikely they'll guard low, but the damage is poor for something so unsafe--even on CH it's only +0, so if they guard high at the start you've automatically put yourself on the defensive. Its flaws are less apparent if they're low on health, though.

-There's no harm in "giving away" that you're on offense. You can use those assumptions to your advantage.

-Building distance is more of a Street Fighter thing. You'll feel less inclined to flail if you're more willing to go in. Learning situations there will make you more comfortable in that range. If you repeatedly retreat and 1K a lot you forfeit frame advantage and run yourself to a wall or ledge.

-A bunch of Starting Out guides show a basic flowchart: P->6P, et cetera. When the distance closes, that's the foundation for starting offense. If they like doing raw high-crushes, just 6P (they rarely outrace simple elbows). 2P is ideal for interrupting highs--otherwise, use it sparingly. If they start blocking or evading that's your cue to throw them instead.

-Get comfortable with advantage/disadvantage. When you know what attacks grant on hit or block, you can more appropriately prepare counters for their defense. When you don't know, you'll feel clueless and lose out on opportunities. Similarly, know what the other player is like on offense--so you don't panic, hit buttons, and eat a launcher. You want to be comfortable being on defense as well as offense.

-Once you have a foundation on the Attack/Block/Throw dynamic and some familiarity with advantage, you'll find yourself in more situations where you can incorporate a launcher into your gameplan with confidence.

If you're looking for your next step, find your characters' 'best moves' and try them in multiple situations in Free Training. What they're like on block/NH/CH/Evade, and experiment to see what can be done from the advantage/disadvantage (and how other players can respond to them). Similarly, practice defensive options like evading and fuzzy-guarding, and learn what disadvantages would incline you to use them. When you know where your offense and defense can lead you, you'll have a plan--and if you have a plan, you can follow that instead of flailing.

 

This

 

This is still about the worst advice one can give to a beginner, they aren't going to understand why something worked in some situation so there's no point in trying to copy the top players nor can they just "figure it out" if they don't understand the system or the character. This is like saying "yo imma watch some boxing matches on TV and then go challenge Mayweather"

I'd dispute this for the same reason, again they aren't going to understand what they did wrong if they don't have a clue of the game.

 

I disagree. @BLACKSTAR has those pieces of advice listed under the first four. That to me, meant after mastering/having a better idea of how these things work in-game, @Kohlrak should be able to understand what he is seeing, or at least begin to.

 

................................................................................Salty Tim WRU?

 

Nothing like a nice long read. I love it.

Maybe I looked at it too fast, but they always seem to be more than 10. But I agree, which is what i was getting at in my post: doesn't matter how flashy you are as long as you're good with with the basics.

Way too much at one time. I tried doing this back in DoA which is very similar. I vaguely remember starting a thread about "information overload." This seems to be a major issue with picking up games like these. Yes, these tools are effective, but only after you've gotten some footing. For example, in my "Dirty Boxing" i was only trained on how to move the body correctly to do simple strikes, then taught more strikes, how to mix them with each other in an effective way, etc.

Yeah, i honestly end up predictably throwing out 4K. I very often forget 1K, but i do throw it out there.

Not without more tools. As of right now, I can only fake it and get them blocking or something, where i my as well be throwing, anyway, instead of using the 3 close punches.

This is true, which is why I like 4K, because I can have range without running like a coward, just like with the real kick like it.

I've seen a couple here, and they seem pretty good, but I don't necessarily know how to translate them. For example, i think the one i saw mentioned something about "your two choice option" or something like that, and i wasn't sure which 2 attacks that would've been. I tried finding them again before posting this, but my searching skills must've gone to pot as of late.

This is the issue i'm having, because, as another post mentions below, this method of learning has me trying to swallow an elephant.

Yeah, which is very true, but i need to walk before I can run. Right now i'm standing up, walking 2 or 3 steps, and falling back down again.

That's pretty much the goal. But, unfortunately, there's a larger adventure in getting there.

Exactly. I keep trying to swallow too much of all these other games at a time wondering why i have too many options floating in my head and can't narrow it down to about 10 or 20 instead of 100 or 200 totally forgetting another 100 that would also work. Right before leaving FSD, I suggested that a tutorial mode that taught you like a real martial arts teacher would would help immensely: you're only allowed to jab and block, now jab-cross, now jab-cross-hook, and now learn how to step away and sidestep, etc. These complex in game tutorial modes like we see with Call of Duty and the like are designed for teaching complex controls like this, but no one ever thinks of teaching fighting games this way.

Indeed. What always upsets me, though, is when a throw sometimes out-beats my strikes, but i figure that has to do with the amount of frames of letting my guard go when i think they're about to try a throw.

I noticed this in DoA, and i noticed VF has mostly the same patterns, hence the 4K 1K thing. Has anyone actually collected a list of these universals? I always felt that not only knowing them, but also knowing that they're universal, would forever aid people coming in completely fresh, as well as those trying to learn new characters [i remember hitting "random" in DoA and start mashing to see if i could find any patterns, but they weren't as obvious as i had hoped].

This'll be next on my list, then.

Thank you. I actually chose Brad since his moveset is very, very similar to my own real moveset. Even still, the moves don't exactly work in the same situations the real life moves do (especially those teeps like the 4K, where if i make contact with you, you're either going to turn sideways so i slip off of you or you're going to back up). But yes, this is exactly what i've realized i need to focus on in general, which is why i don't use that 4K up close unless i'm not thinking.

I honestly had no idea who to watch. So this'll be added to my list as well.

I really wish i could slow-mo them, too.

It is in every game. What do you mean by "clash," though?

I like your thinking, but fortunately i'm not THAT bad off. But yeah, for chronicaling purposes, yeah the complete new guy will not understand such things. Maybe, though, we could come up with a system of sharing replays so that said people could ask questions.[/quote]

 

Fair point, but I was talking more about the big picture. Start small and go at a pace you're comfortable with, even if it means working with just the basics @BLACKSTAR listed.

BLACKSTAR covered this better than I ever could. Once you're read up on nitaku/reverse nitaku and the universal stuff, you can use those fundamentals to better understand why Brad players use what they use,

 

This is not worth doing
There's no reason to know your character front and back, period. All you need to do is beat your opponent, right? So just have AN answer ready for any read you wanna make. Think your opponent is gonna sidestep? have a fast circ or half circ move on deck and let it rip when you think they'll do it. You don't need to know every circular attack... even if each has its own unique use, all you need to care about right now is that they beat evades, period!

 

The problem with all of this is that there is no contexts of the battle. Sure you can study every aspect of your character but if you're not pay attention to your opponent but instead think of the combo you will do when your launcher hits, the fight will be over if opponent knows you're going to hesitate. One moments you got a CH and then in another moment you're getting launched by a desperate opponent attempting to yolo big moves.The thing of about VF is that you can get far with just the simple basics (although FS has alot of gimmicks) . Elbow, 5p( small advantage on guard), 2p( universal GTFO move and gereral harrassment), throws( Blocks too much), launch( they throw too much), full circulars (dodges too much)and G ( learn to block and not always go to steal the turn). If you become so interested in your arsenal you might lose the tempo of the battle. As for the other moves, just have fun with them in dojo mode until they become a little more natural( figure out their exact timings, spacing, advantage disadvantage)then just use them unexpectedly in the fight ( you can always have another match). While there're are more efficient ways of dealing damage that's always a work in progress. Eventually you're going to have to let go and trust your instincts (figure out the opponent and taking down an opponent by any mean necessary). Have fun trying new stuff everyday.As cheesy as it sounds you can't really lose if you are having fun.

 

The big picture is important, too. Unfortunately, the boards i was at before (for DoA) only saw the big picture and pretended the little one didn't exist something. Sorry if i end up seeming a little jumpy; i'll work on it.

Universals are the thing i've wanted from the beginning in any 3d fighting game, because those universals make a world of difference in the 2d games, and i like to attribute Smash's success, where similar games (mascot games) have failed, to the clarity of their universals.

This is true. My intent is to take baby steps to get to the point of knowing the character front and back, while learning how to win as the focus.

This is actually the exact problem I had when playing DoA. I knew that knowing all my characters' tools was important to be among the best with that character. However I also took everyone's advice on studying my character to a science. As a result, i had guesses of what i could do in a given situation, but the time it would take me to narrow down the options was too great to actually accomplish any options. I knew it would be, then, beneficial to have slowmo, but that wasn't an option. So, i started a quest on how to actually figure this out, but with all the community available to me, any time I had a new idea on how to tackle said problem, no volunteers (i know, no one's obligated to help, but they are worried about growing the game). Often I'd get advice which i knew was counter-productive (I had a thread asking about universals, and was told that I shouldn't worry about them and that i'd figure them out on my own [this then encouraged me to hit random and mash to see what could win fights, just so i could figure out which button presses actually accomplished anything and which ones were shared, but, as you can imagine, that process was going ever so slowly {and then i ran into the problems I ran into and came here <brackets galore!>}]).

So, you got me started. We have Elbow (i'm assuming 6P), 2P (never realized it was a GTFO move, but that's useful to know since I am always wanting to slow the fight down), and obviously (5)P jab. 4K is usually a mid reaching move, (5)K is usually high, and i remember from DoA it's not always reaching (I would imagine it is here, though, but please correct me if i'm wrong). I know that 1K is usually a reaching low. Any other universals (regardless of how advanced, since I can always keep them in mind that they're probably next on my list)?

EDIT:

Finally got the nitaku, thing. Seems like a misnomer in my mind. So let me get this straight, nitaku is where you have the offensive choice between throw and (5)P? In that case, my opponent has to figure out how they'll deal with it (sidestep, 2P, etc). If I think my opponent is aware enough to not fall for it, I have to then guess at what they're most likely to do (so 6P their 2P, go for the throw if they sidestep, try to get side control on throw escape, etc), but my safest bet is still the first 2 (since 2P is chip-damage and merely resets us to neutral). Am I right so far?

 

Awesome. I'll keep my eye open for it. This is something that i feel should be included with 3d games, just like how they're usually included with 2D games (honestly i feel that has been part of the reason why 2d games tend to be more popular [though, indirectly, of course: that ease of picking up the game has everything to do with how likely you are to have fun and invite others to play]).

I was wondering if that's what you meant. But, yeah, that's important. Isn't it merely the attack that's stronger wins, otherwise it's a race to the active frame connect?

 

Of course. I figure they're relatively rare offline, but, clearly, understanding them is essential for dissecting "why did that slower attack win when, even though i was late, i still saw the animation come out?" Nothing more frustrating than getting thrown while doing a 5P (even though that's not clashing): if we feel that the game is cheating or that everything we heard is a lie, we're less inclined to continue learning and instead go on ranting about how life is unfair.

 

hello.
Very interesting thread.
I assume at this moment your are familiar with the concepts of Advantage/disadvantage, very important, i read sometime Virtua Fighter is a turn based game. You need to record in your mind when you are in advantage and is time to attack and when is time to defend.
normally you are in advantage
After blocking (exception jap P and other characteristic moves )
after hit your oponent (some exceptions dont worry now)
after P punch of 12 frames (11f Lion Kage Eileen and Pai).e
thus you are in disadvantage
After the oponent block you attack
you block a (5)P punch
the oponent hit you
2 once you are familiar with this Nitaku is the next step and in this moment i thing you must start to practice the universal defend of fuzzy guard. This sounds very dificult but some times is only to press 33g after 6p
Sorry if the post is too simple for you but I'm not sure you know this
One of the best advice i read in this web is: Make friends, fight and learn.
add me in psn if you want (i'm the worst player in this web )