Taking your percentages!

Things you must be able to do to get something out of this thread.

1) Atleast "SINGLE" throw escape guard. But keep in mind every time you evade your throwing opportunity away when you don't do "DOUBLE" throw escape guard.

2) Shinz step or Crouch dash effectively. You don't have to do Shinz step, but atleast crouch dash backwards and forwards.

3) Be nice.

The topic is percentages and its relation to VF. Taking your percentages is a term I like to use time and time again. It's the most general way to keep from taking monster damage and staying out of hazardous situations. In this thread I'm going to post a character along with a situation. This thread was created for the soul purpose to enlighten and potentially help those that don't get to practice or play with human comp on a day to day basis.

So lets begin, first character up to bat will be "Jacky". I've heard alot of people talk about how hard jacky is to fight against and how he is just "CHEESE". So lets take this opportunity to dive into some of jacky's basic situations.

BTW, below is how I will continually post the new characters and situations, in this format.

Character: JACKY
situation: +, elbow stagger.

How would you get out of this situation with minimal damage? I won't answer I'd like to hear what some of you would try. BBIAB.

 

Since I play Akira, I would respond with either R-DTE, E-DTEG, or Sabaki. If I'm absolutely certain Jacky's going for a throw, then I'll counter with the SPoD.

 

With Jeffrey, Theres only two things I can do, e-dte or knee.

Knee gives me big dmg if he trys to go for a throw, but e-dte is safer unless he does p+g throw.

Low punch is also an option, but I think if Im staggered, Jacky can beat my low punch.

If Im wrong dont bash me, Im not that great at VF.

 

Actually now that I think about it, your solution is probably better. To be on the safe side, I'd try to recover as quickly as possible, block any followup attacks, and interrupt throws with high or low punch.

 

Thats the thing dre, You have to guess attack or throw. For this reason attempting to block his attack leaves you open to a throw. But if you e-dte You not only eliminate attacks(not all though) but you also get rid of his two best throws. Blocking gets you thrown.

Now you may say, well then he will always just go for his third throw, but this is not true at first, jacky will go for his biggest throw because his risk/reward is better in doing his best throw, once you start to break his best throw, jacky will switch to p+g throw which doesnt hurt as much as the others.

So to recap

jack elbow staggers you, you e-dte, you take out non-circular attacks, and his two best throws.

so now you know that when he elbow staggers you to get a reward he will have to do a circular attack or p+g throw. So you can easily switch up you counter-attack. I think this is correct, but Im probably wrong.

 

Hold G (rotate 360) then low back fist. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

I know that. What I was referring to is being able to recognize the throw and interrupting it. I mentioned this as a safe option (not always the best option)because E-TEG still leaves you open to Jacky's crescent. Plus with DTEG, you risk causing a whiffed throw animation and eating another attack.

 

If you hit, dodge double throw escape guard, You wont get the wiff animation. A jacky player wont start off with cresent flow charts. He would switch to it to get you while your dodging.

 

Again, you're preaching to the choir. I only mentioned that as a solution to the crescent/throw guessing game.

Edit: Furthermore, an elbow stagger pushes the opponent out of Jacky's throw range. In this case he'd have to advance forward slightly in order to throw, so you can definitely tell whether a throw is coming or not. It's not that difficult to recognize a throw attempt in this situation and quickly enter + and +.

E-DTEG or / isn't always a good choice because Jacky can destroy both of these with +. If you happen to guess correctly and do E-DTEG, he can simply delay his throw until the evade is finished.

 

I would use a sabaki if I had one...

 

Awesome responses guys. Myke, Jedi, and DRE all have valid means of staying out of trouble in a elbow stagger situation. I play Jacky and this is what I find to be the best means for people to stay out of trouble.

This is what jacky "WANTS" to do.

1) He wants you to duck so you can get elbow staggered, from here Jacky is in HEAVEN.

Attacking after: No jacky that I've ever seen has EVER played percentages effectively by kneeing or BKCing immediately. These moves are highly counterable and its just not worth going for in the assumption that the opponent might lp. Especially with what you have to work with once they are elbow staggered. If jacky is going to attack he is 1st: going to dash in, not a full dash cause if its a full dash it will be a throw and in a full dash any attack that jacky does will be beaten by a struggling lper. Jacky will half dash cause anything more than that will get him MC lp'd. I generally wait to see the lp or the DODGE to commit to the knee or BKC. The lp will wiff and timed right they will take the BKC, Knee isn't a great option at all if your playing percentages, unless they dodge. Then timed knee will do nicely =). My main game is between elbow again until you dodge and THEN go for big damage by either delaying a throw or attack.

Throwing: In this situation Jacky can throw in open or closed. Stance doesn't matter! Generally to beat the throw a DTEG will do nicely, but this is exactly what jacky wants you to do. If Jacky dashes in completely you HAVE to be fast enough to break his two BEST throws, Back and D/F. After BACK throw break Jacky is at -6 and after d/f break Jacky is either on the ground or sideways depending on which d/f throw you used. So breaking Jacky's throws are Crucial. I'll just tell you now, Jacky's #1 goal is to get you suprised and to freeze so you take f,b throw. An 8 frame high unblockable move that does 65 damage appeals to anybody.

CORRECT ANSWER: To effectively keep the damage down, you have to watch what jacky does while your in stagger. If its a half dash Jacky is "ATTACKING" to beat your lp, you DO NOT want to lp, block the BKC or elbow and then your either ducking the second hit of his BKC and either throwing him or delaying a horrible move from crouch and getting jacky while he DTEG's or getting a +4 advantage. All good Jacky's NEVER finish a blocked beatknuckle! If Jacky fully dashes in you'll want to LP or DTEG. I've played IMF for a while and this works like a charm. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

2nd situation:
character: Lei Fei
situation: blocking DS stance p+k,p...

What should you do? Start replying /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

If you block Iron man, the best thing to do is Linny. Hes at +7 frames if blocked, +15 if it hits. By doing a linny, you remove that frame advantage by backing away side step his attacks, and the crouch dash cancel will let you block circular attacks. If you crouch_linny its even better, cause back dashing a good way to get thrown.

so the answer is, crouch dash backwards, evade, crouch dash cancel aka crouch_linny

 

ok I havent beed reading vfdc for sometime so could someone fill me in on what exactly "linny" is? I dont remember this term

 

Count your lucky stars and hope that you guess correctly? /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif

 

Linny is a fairly new term coined by Florida VF players. Basically its a back dash, cancelled by a side-step, cancelled by a crouch dash.

What it does is it backs away out throw range, side steps attacks, and with the crouch dash cancel blocks circular movements.

Its a movement that is done often, but FLorida named it. I think there are other people who can better explain it. IMF or Blonde_ONe

 

First to DRE: I can't sit down and test it but I'm pretty sure I've gotten away with a throw after an elbow stagger ..without dashing first. This may be a fluke, as I'm partial to df, df throws and I might be getting a hair of crouch dash in there. In any case, you can get elbow staggers from different ranges and it's certainly common to get a stagger that is too far away to guarantee a throw without dashing.

Blonde_one also had mentioned on irc that he thought that elbow stagger (tap guard) -> f+K (jacky's knee) would whiff without a dash, but testing proved otherwise, so assume that jacky's knee (or P+K etc) will hit without telegraphing with a dash.

I hate to ruin the fun surprise but the answer blonde_one is fishing for is to struggle and then low punch. There are a lot of arguments for and against low punch vs. E-DTEG.
========
Low punch:

Pros
---------
-quick enough to stuff [very]slow mids, any throw attempt, and delayed throw attempts (i.e. the opponent crouch dashes forward, waits for your whiffed dodge animation, then throws).
-on MC vs. the aformentioned slow mid or throw, you have a good amount of initiative, enough to force your own 50/50 guessing game.
-if your opponent for whatever reason is not hit by it, the recovery is pretty quick, especially when compared to a whiffed dodge. No human opponent will be able to recognize a whiffed low punch and punish it strictly on reflex, while jacky can probably recognize the whiffed throw and tap up or down in time to dodge any kneejerk reactions from the enemy.
-you'll never screw it up in terms of timing or commands.

Cons
-------
-An elbow stagger puts you at least 8 frames back, a low punch takes another dozen to come out, so that's 20 frames before your low punch can connect. A buffered knee from jacky, or a beat knuckle, or some other major mid move should always win (even with perfect struggling followed by an immediate d+P). So a jacky player who outguesses you can land a reliable, let's say 70 or so points of damage. At this point blonde_one wants to jump out of his chair and scream "NO COMPETENT JACKY DOES A BIG FRIGGIN MOVE LIKE KNEE AFTER AN ELBOW STAGGER!@#" to which myke and I both reply: Maybe not the first game, but he'll definitely START doing it when you predictably low punch out of every elbow stagger.
-Low punch loses to other fairly safe (though non-rewarding) attacks. For example Jacky does elbow-backfist, the struggler either
a. Low punched and ate both hits for a moderate chunk of damage, 34 pts.
b. EDTEG and blocked the backfist, at which point jacky is still uncounterable but 7 frames behind.
c. EDTEG and ate the backfist. I need to test it more, but I think a backfist reliably hits after an elbow is dodged successfully. Or it may just be that the opponent tried something after the dodge and then ate it.
This is probably what I'd use as jacky, as low punching out of elbow staggers is much more common at my level of play.

EDTEG

Pros
-------
-Avoids all but the semi-circular attacks in the game, this includes most effective mids.
-Avoids two of the most damaging throws, forcing jacky to resort to a crappy clothesline or P+G.

Cons
--------
-Easier to do on paper than in practice, it's possible to screw up the motion or timing in such a way that you eat a throw or attack anyway. It's especially tough in a stagger situation because you must recognize the exact end of the stagger before doing your EDTEG... too early and a mid smacks you out of a whiffed throw animation. Too late and a buffered throw might get you before you've entered your second escape.
-loses to what I see a lot of advanced players in japan doing in clips, namely a crouch dash forward into a delayed throw, or a crouch dash into low punch and/or the FC upper, which is really safe even if it's blocked.
-loses to that third throw, a properly delayed attack, or a circular attack.


Anyway to wrap up, I think myke's point is the one to pay attention to - there's no guaranteed escape to anything.
The low punch wins vs. the two or three common options advanced players like to use, but these techniques evolved as a response to EDTEG and are in turn thwarted by scrubby stuff like elbow, knee.

The EDTEG wins vs. most of the flowcharts that typical intermediate players will use, but loses to advanced stuff like crouch dash, delay, throw.

You can easily say "but if jacky knees and the struggler sees it coming, and they block it, jacky's screwed" but that's assuming they knew what you'd do and decided to respond correctly, just as it's easy to say "if jacky crouch dashes forward for a new flowchart, and the struggler sees it coming and smacks you out of the crouch dash, jacky's screwed".

With percentages in mind, I think myke's response is the best vs. a complete stranger who you've never seen before. Maybe he's learned the crouch dash and delay trick, maybe he likes to knee, but PERCENTAGE wise EDTEG avoids about 2/3rds of the attacks in jacky's arsenal and 1/2 the throws. Low punch avoids about 1/3rd of the attacks in the game, all the throws, and the sort of intangible option of 'crouch-dash-forward-flowcharts'.

A final bit...
The damage you take from doing EDTEG and being outguessed is maybe 65 points for a worst case scenario hanging knee throw. The damage you take from doing low punch and being outguessed is 45+9+16+13 for a standard knee, P, overhead smash, ground kick combo... 83 points assuming a float vs. a low punch MC is high enough to allow for that combo. It may not be.

 

what about dodge ?
you will escape throw if you enter the command directly.
you will escape delay throw and delay attack.
you will escape a lot of direct attack (like knee)
you will take the avantage in a lot of case and make some domage.
i don t know about the circular and half circular atack but depend of the jacki reaction , you may have a major counter but not lose like 65 points .
but if jaki know and just let you execute then i will have a garanty throw .
personnaly i use to do this a lot the first time the jacki touch me with the elbow because there is a lot off chance that i take the advantage and make him some dommage. moreover the next elbow, the jacki will think before attack me, and we directly enter in a gessing game.
if i guard my dodge then i will try to escape 2 throw and may come out of this situation with less dommage .
i know that it s not a perfect answer but there is some utilyti to use.
if u see some big game mistake by doing this, please say me .

thanks

 

The problem with dodge attacks is that is just that, an attack. At the point you are elbow staggered you are at a disadvantage and if you dodge attack. Some characters had special propertys on there dodge attacks, so It also depends on who you are playing. I know for a fact akiras dodge attack is still a dodge, so he gets out of lots of moves and still hits the attack, but this is not the case with someone like jeffrey.