Tech Questions I've been thinking about alot (Hiros post).

As all know (or should know) Hiro's post on this site is like a bible for VF'ers.

I have two main questions however regarding the document.

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4.Throw escape Guard (TEG)
This can be used ONLY WHEN you have ?8 and above. Then, you can input
TE and G before you can start to move.

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This isn't true is it? I mean, you can do TEG at -6 etc (like after a Aki SDE), granted not with lots of TE's but it can still be done although it becomes increasingly harder the smaller your diss is.

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2. Attack Throw escape (ATE)
Can be used in ThG.

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The idea is as I know to stop for instance someone planning a delayed attack (thinking you would ETE) while at the same time doing TE if the garanteed throw comes. I can not for the life of me do a P > TE and escape a throw coming even if it's just one since the TE input will come out to late for me(I have to wait until my recovery is over in order to punch so I could win against the delayed attack right?).

So what gives / help?

/KiwE

 

<---- Dandy

OK, I was going to say that you can do 1 TE at any disadvantage without whiff, but after testing it, it doesn't work. You have a very small window to buffer TEs when not evading. When you evade you can input a TE a while before the throw connects and it you will escape it, but when standing still it has to be very accurate. Thus you can only do TEG and DTEG at -10 or more.

As for ATE, you just have to buffer fast. VF has a pretty friendly window for buffering stuff (12 frames right?). So do your P or low P or knee or whatever as early as possible, and VERY quickly do TEs.

 

i dont get "ATE" very well.

so what is your throw input window? the amount of frames of your high P or your recovery frames? (i.e-6) or both together?

or is it just 12 frames as a set buffer window..

 

i think the throw can be anytime after the attack, but i remember hearing to escape a throw, it has to be within 10 frames (before or after) of the opponent's throw input. I don't know if this is true or not, anyone know?

 

Hi. Sal (Sudden Death) told me to check out the question. (Sorry that I don't usually check VFDC since I play VF only when I go to NY or Japan...)

Anyway, as for the TEG, you can do it when you have -9. You need to have a extra frame from 8 frames. (It takes 8 frames for the usual throws to come out.) This is as much as the fact that you need to have an extra frame to get a minor counter.

Let me clarify my notation.
Minor counter --hitting the oppnent out of the recovery motion.
Small counter--hitting the oppnent in the motion of an attack with the damage less than or equal to 15.
Mid counter--the same except for the damage. 16-24.
Major counter--the same with the damage above or equal to 25.

So, for example, we know Jacky's b,df+P comes out in 13 frames and b,df+PPP connects with a minor counter. In this case, Jacky needs +14 to get a minor counter to use b,df+PPP after defending something.
The same is true. For example, in VF4 FT, after Akira's f,f,f+P is defended, Akira could not do TEG in ver A since he had -8. On the other hand, in ver B, he has -10, which lets him do TEG. (When you do it, you normally can escape from one throw. If your input is quick, two is possible as weel. AdamYuki does that.) Even if the disadvantage is the same, each move has different recovery time, so you need to practice the timing with each move separately. The way this works is that you are inputting throw escapes before you get thrown. (The CPU recognizes your throw escape input before and after you get thrown.) This is because you need to input the throw escapes before you get out of the receovery time of your move. The same thing is true for escaping low throws. I would recommend DTE (= dodge throw escape) for low throws in some occasions, though...

Here, the exception to the -9 frame rule is when you get thrown with a throw after which you can take a TR/QR. For example, even if you have -6, you can do f+P+G, df+P+G, release P while holding G. If you do that against Brad, then you can escape from his df,df+P+G and b,f+P+G. This technique is especially useful against Brad and Wolf. Against Wolf, you can escape KS, GS, Wrist lock throw. Not F5, though... Also, somewhat useful against Akira (f+P+G), Kage (b+P+G), Jacky (df+P+G).

Also, as for throw escape, when you input a direction, it seems that you need to hold it for more than 1 frame. If your input for a direction is for 1 frame, the CPU would not recognize it and gives the throw escape for P+G... Well, this is a rare case, but no harm to remember this fact.

ATE can be used against delayed attack mainly. Useful with the move with a short recovery time. (By "recovery time", I mean the animation itself. Not the disadvatage you have after the move.)

If you are very sure that the oppnent will do a delayed attack, you can use a big move such as knee. However, you may want to change the choice depending on the opponent in VF4 FT. Against Jacky (f+K), Brad (f+K) and some others, you may want to use P or d+P so that you will get hit with a small counter at worst. (Then, they can not make a combo. With those moves, they need at least a mid counter.) This point should be remembered even if you have a smaller disadvatage so that a throw is not guaranteed. In that case, you can not do ATE (if you attack, then you won't get thorwn if the disadvantage you have is less than -8.) But, if you decided to attack, it may make sense to use a move so that you will get only a small counter at worst. Of course, this is not applicable against someone like Wolf who only needs a small counter to make a combo.

In any case, it might be difficult to find when to use ATE (DTE, TEG, ARE are more common), but it shows its usefulness in some situations.

 

Thanks a ton for clarifying this. Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

 

Thx for the post, hiro. This is a nice discussion.

As for defensive techniques in VF in -10 and above,

first, ETEG can lose to a delay attack or a delay throw if read by an opponent. If your opponent delays their attacks with the right timing to catch your failed evade, there's nothing you can do about it but get hit by it. Against a delay throw, you can input another TEs when you see a delayed throw coming. So, basically

You do EDETG and see your opponent waiting...
so you do TEs again. This takes a good amount of skill, and since the opponent can do a delay attack instead of a throw, ETEG is prefered. (That's how Japanese players escape a delayed throw)


DTEG is safe against a delay attack but still loses to delayed throw when your opponent waits for your TE inputs to become ineffecitve and then throw you. The same technique can be used to beat the delayed throw here. You can do a ETEG when you see your opponent going for a dealyed one or you can simply go for an attack.

For example, Homestay does this sometimes after Dbl palm gets blocked.

DTEG, Yoho

If the opponent goes for a guaranteed attack, there's nothing he can do about it, but if they go for a throw, he will escape 2 different kinds of throws. If the opponent goes for a run-in throw(a delayed throw), he will eat a yoho on his way to Homestay. I've seen it a few times myself.


ATE is done by inputting an attack then TEs during its execution. This tech beats both a delayed attack and a delayed throw as the attack you do will hit your opponent out of them. As for the attack, you want to do a simple command attack like LP or high P as you will input TEs afterwards.


The downside of using LP, TE is, you will lose to their backdash attack, like Jacky's backdash b, K+G. In this case, Jacky's b, K+G is useful against both LP, TE and ETEG.


ATE also straight up loses to a no delay attack as you are basically attacking in a big disadvantage. That's why when you watch Japaese clips, you sometimes see them going for a no-delay launcher after blocking only a throw counterable move, and it hits on counter by beating the opponent's ATE.


In short,

1.ETEG loses to a delayed attack and delayed throw
2.TEG loses to a delayed throw
3.ATE loses to a none-delayed attack.


You can see that TEG is better than ETEG in -10, so basically in -10, your best options are switching up between TEG and ATE.


If your opponent doesn't go for a delayed throw or a catch throw, all you have to do is
TEG as there's no point of doing ATE. If your opponent is good and go for a delayed throw or a catch throw to beat your TEG, then switch to ATE. The strength of Japaese players come from their abilities in executing those techniuqes correctly and switching up freely upon their guessings.

 

DTEG-> backdash.
Beats everything maddy.
/versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

thanks guys, i really learnt something here.

i never liked ETEG at -10 really, i will apply TEG much more often i think.

 

Thanks alot for the answers, good stuff.

/KiwE

 

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Here, the exception to the -9 frame rule is when you get thrown with a throw after which you can take a TR/QR. For example, even if you have -6, you can do f+P+G, df+P+G, release P while holding G. If you do that against Brad, then you can escape from his df,df+P+G and b,f+P+G. This technique is especially useful against Brad and Wolf. Against Wolf, you can escape KS, GS, Wrist lock throw. Not F5, though... Also, somewhat useful against Akira (f+P+G), Kage (b+P+G), Jacky (df+P+G).

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I thought you were on crack or something, but this is totally correct! I was just testing this out. I can't seem to do TEG after Akira's SDE though, for some reason. But after Jacky's 6P, 33P, and 4K+G, and Akira's DE it works perfectly. So a throw being TR/QR-able is another balancing factor for throws. Man, I can't believe this is true...

 

OMG, VF's very very weird.

 

Is there any way you can ETE -> CD? I doubt it, but worth asking here.

 

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ATE also straight up loses to a no delay attack as you are basically attacking in a big disadvantage. That's why when you watch Japaese clips, you sometimes see them going for a no-delay launcher after blocking only a throw counterable move, and it hits on counter by beating the opponent's ATE.

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Hi, just wanted to add that they also do this simply to beat abare play style.

I agree that this thread is very informative. I was totally taken back on the whole being able to TEG vs tech/quick rise throws.

 

That was kinda what made me wonder wtf was up since I did a non ThG move and then a single TE and then held G and when I tested it I did it against Kage and TFT or forward against Aki so it worked. Should have read the document closer - I swear every now and then when I go back and read it I learn something new, awesome.

On the downside... man Brads throwgame sucks if people can apply this. I mean like really really.

/KiwE

 

hahaha

well that sure is something you wont be told in an average conversation /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif --- great stuff!!

 

You can as long as the TEs do not have a ++ in it. You end up cancelling the evade with a throw, like ARE but with a throw.

 

ok, are we talking evo, FT or both here?

 

Evo and it most prob the same in FT, you NOOB! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif