Techrolling/Quickrising

Just want to know what people's thoughts are on techrolling. Personally, I rarely techroll...The only reason I would do it is to avoid a KO and to not get pounced to death(Lion's sweep, not to be predictable etc...) When you tech you put yourself in a very dangerous position...so I rather sacrifice 12pts from a down attack(and being called incompetent /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) then get into a situation where I can possibily lose 50% of my lifebar. I still remember Llanny's WTF? expression when he asked me if that's how I really play last time at GE's place...haha.

Anyway, reason for this post is that I can't remember watching a clip or playing against someone who doensn't tech all the time...seems like everybody just techrolls blindly...

Edit: Another reason for this post is that I feel really bad hoarding this secret technique for so long...people if you want to improve your win precentage then don't techroll! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

I thought techrolling was pretty safe unless you land in a head back position, where you can get back staggered. I usually just stand up in place rather than roll, is this safer?

 

I don't really understand how a slow rising can be more safe than a TR/QR. Your opponent can buffer stuff while you are getting up so you have to deal with a guessing game of the worst kind anyway (like guess between Akiras +P or throw or something like that, the opponent will always have enough time to launch anything at you while you are standing up, if he has good timing he can launch it so that it hits a P with a MC).

Also it seems like there are certain situations in which you can get an advantage by TR:ing after a combo (if the combo ends with an attack with long recovery), but I guess I could be wrong here.

Besides in what situations can you lose 50% of you life? Its only if you TR in the face down, head towards position, right? Do a QR in these situations instead then.

Furthermore, how do you deal with Aois/Wolfs/Gohs ground throws without TR/QR? Some of them deals a good amount of damage...

 

I tech-roll too much (not face down head towards usually tho, I do QR, but they are sort of family) but you're right, in my opinion it's not good to do all the time. If you notice your opponent has good tactics against you when you techroll (good okizeme vs you) I'd recommend not TR so much. It's not good to just lay there all the time either. If you never TR there are many situations where the opponent can land a heavy down attack (I think).

If you're expected to tech roll it's good to not do so cuz you prolly wont get a down attack on you (can be seen in pro players vids often, standing player has plenty of time to do down attack but since he didnt expect downed player to not TR, down attack on reaction is too risky) and then rising with the threat of a low or mid rising attack (but most of the time not doing any of it) is much better i think. So rising without TR you can threaten with instant or delayed mid or low rising attack, or an attack as soon as you have got up, or a throw (since the opponent is afraid of the delayed / other attacks) you're in a much more even situation than when QR/TR'ing.

If you notice opponent is easy to read when you TR, i.e. likes to throw you alot when you TR, then it might be a good idea to still TR and counter a throw with a heavy launcher, or counter an expexted attack with a block or evade > attack (evade > kp with sarah launches on mC hehehe, i know kiwe loves my evade > kp /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Summary: TR is riskier but with reverse nitaku heavy launcher into a throw, it has pretty high payoff. So, high risk high payoff I guess /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just a few thoughts from an evade > kp abuser ... /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*edit* plus; madaoi: being more or less invincible while slow rising is pretty much something that makes it safer don't you think? as said slow riser can threaten with lots of stuff (and breaking a rising attack is VERY hard in my experience, especially when you don't know if its gonna be delayed or not, if you try to break and instant rising attack and the riser does a delayed one, he's gonna be invincible until the attack comes out and beat you anyway so :/ )

 

There should be a healthy mix to laying still and tech rolling. If your opponent is pummeling you from a certain situation you might want to break his rhythm by letting yourself hit the ground. If you're conditioned to the same response over and over then you will be RAN over. It happens a lot during inbred play where one person will have the other person's game plan mapped out for a round then played through like clockwork.

/me gets hit with beat knuckle for the 50th time on tech roll

 

I TR/QR often. I like it when my opponent doesn't. I get to use damaging OTB stuff - knee, DJK, etc.

 

TR and QR are very different, too. TR is generally safe since you can fuzzy after it, so there is not as much risk as QR. If you are playing a character with a low throw, TR becomes a much riskier option. On QR, you cannot evade during the first frames, so your opponent has a perfect 50/50 guessing game on you, so not teching at all can be helpful after crumples, but it is also looked for a lot. Like Jerky said, you just have to mix up.

Not teching in general if a good idea when the match is not going on your favor, as it takes away the other player's momentum. Plauge, you said that a rising attack is not good risk reward - that is true, but you can just choose to not do a rising, and get up very slow, "faking" a delayed rising. This can throw off your opponent's timing just enough to let you backdash or sneak in a low P or something. Anything to turn the tide. Them trying to break your rising attack is also risky, so many try to bait and get it to whiff, but if no rising is done, they are far away and you are completely safe.

Also, one sidenote, sometimes TRing in a backstagger situation can be GOOD. A good example is teching Brad's ++. Normally a player will not expect you to TR, and they will do stadard QR/no tech wakeups. QR/not teching the throw still puts you on defense and risking a 50/50. A TR in this situation can get you away scott-free, because the Brad player will not try to go for a backstagger. The timing for backstagger knee can only be option-selected with an OTG knee if you don't tech at all, so mixup QRing and TRing, and play smart.

 

I prefer slow rising compared to TR or QR and Dandy already explained the advantages of that...not a lot of reward but you have more options.

"Besides in what situations can you lose 50% of you life?"
That might have been a tad exagerrated...guessing game between a launcher and a throw is what I meant, which can range from say 30-50% bar.

"how do you deal with Aois/Wolfs/Gohs ground throws without TR/QR? Some of them deals a good amount of damage... "
You TR or QR...that's included in the Lion sweep example(probably should have made it more clear)...whenever the opponent has a guaranteed 20+ points you should TR or QR...like a guaranteed ground throw. Same thing with say Kage's ff+P+K+G...Obviously you should tech if it will give you the advantage or if it will reduce damage by say 20+points...don't be an idiot, play smart.

"I TR/QR often. I like it when my opponent doesn't. I get to use damaging OTB stuff - knee, DJK, etc."
Refer to Jerky's post...I'm not saying I don't tech at all...just enough to avoid OTB combo situations, pounces etc...

It just seems like ALL VF players tech ALL the time...come on bring the pre VF4 days back! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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Not teching in general if a good idea when the match is not going on your favor, as it takes away the other player's momentum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably the key statement of the thread. I'm not sure I agree that TR and QR are sure fire ways to lead to 30-50% or lifebar drainage, but I do think that there's a remarkable momentum associated with the TR game. Providing your opponent has good yomi, the TR game can be devastating. If you're into mindgames - and, BMF, I know you're not /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif - then the TR/QR game is for you...

Put it this way - just as much as the pressuring opponent wants to drive momentum and crush you as you TR, the rising opponent can snuff these attempts and shift the momentum right back. If you think they're going to throw, launch them. I you think they're going to launch, low punch or dodge or block or whatever. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's a midgame.

Or you can be a pussy and just sit on your ass and not bother to outsmart your opponent /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Just want to add my few cents here. Tech rolling can definitely be painful, as can getting into a predictable pattern of when you techroll and when you don't. For example, what I noticed would happen to me alot is I'd tech a double palm and end up eating akira's b,f+p+k, then I'd stay down and eat a quick pounce. I became too predictable in trying to techroll once and then not trying again and thus paid for it. Also, in situations where your opponet guesses correctly that you don't tech roll, you'll be in for a world of hurt - like more than just a quick pounce, but an elaborate otb combo that's nasty as hell and makes you feel even more demoralized than if you tech rolled and ate something.

As far as not tech rolling when things aren't going in your favor, I totally agree. At the same point, sometimes I notice that towards the end of a round when an opponet's life is down they are less likely to tech roll than if they have a lot of their life. Or if you're making a big comeback they are less likely to tech roll, thus taking away your comeback momentum. If you get used to seeing this you can use his NOT tech rolling to keep the momentum going by busting out some nasty otb combo.

Also, something I noticed is that most people (myself included) tech roll towards the screen (ie: d+p+k+g), it seems a lot rarer to see someone tech roll away from the screen using u+p+k+g.

And one final thing, and this is something I need to work on as well, if you have decided not to tech roll, start struggling asap so you can stand up asap. Sometimes I feel that I don't tech roll, wait, and then start to struggle to get up, thus giving my opponet extra time to see me lying there and get a free quick pounce. Sometimes I feel that if I had made up my mind not to tech roll, and then started struggling, that maybe I'd have stood up in time to not get hit by the quick pounce.