Tekken 5 vs. VF4 (dont be bias!!!!!)

hi everyone, i am new here and a noob at VF. I was really interested at virtua fighter whn i first play VF4. I brought my copy of evo from a friend and stated to play it. Damn..is it harder than tekken 5 or what. well...the universtiy that i go to has a game room, and a lot of people there play socal3 and tekken 5 (namco fans). when i brought up the subject of virtua fighter, as you may have guessed it, they say that it was "garbage", and that they would rather play DOA4 than VF4.. when i really got into playing VF4evo, i realized how complicated and deep it is. too bad i never got near teh intermediate level (i dont have a VF stick for pete's sake). since no one at my school play VF, i decided to play tekken 5 instead. i soon realized taht tekken 5 was a really fun game and pretty easy compare to VF. it took only a week of practice, but i actually am good at tekken 5 (i use bryan, and yeah, i know that he's 'top tiers'). Anyway..my question to all you VF fans here: do any of you play tekken 5 at all, if so what do you think of that game., and please DO NOT BE BIAS!!!. for me..i would pick VF just because it is deeper, but i am hesitating because none of my friends play VF.

 

This discussion has been done to death, but hey I am all about going over it again.

I play tekken 5 because of the many people around me that play the game. Its well made, enjoyable, and has a fair amount of depth to it

But when it comes to VF, nothing beats it. Depth, characters, and customaization all rock the hell out of any other game.

To me tekken is just filler.

 

"This discussion has been done to death, but hey I am all about going over it again." maybe, but didnt i mentioned that im new in this forum.

tekken aren't really filler, it is quite fun. i am actually really into it now, eventhough im still downloading VF video matches. and yes..i see your point about the chracterization, half of the characters in tekken 5 should be taken out, they're just joke character. but they game is still very fun to play, and very easy to get into. i guess thats why many people prefer that over VF.

 

Did you read the first half of his response...search hommie...but honestly, at a vf site what sort of response do you expect?

 

i didnt expect anything less...but it is just bias to say that tekken5 is "just filler". my point is that there are several good reasons why a lot of people play tekken 5 over vf4.

 

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happy_GOH_lucky said:

i didnt expect anything less...but it is just bias to say that tekken5 is "just filler". my point is that there are several good reasons why a lot of people play tekken 5 over vf4.

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Retardation being the biggest reason.

 

"Retardation being the biggest reason. "
hmmm....i must say, people at tekken forum are a lot more respectful.

 

I could say:
"If I opened a thread like this and start defending another game on the Tekken Zaibatsu I wouldn't get torched? I find that hard to swallow." But to create some leeway. Most of us have probably been on the recieving end of the 'Tekken, Soulcalibur' is better stick which usually involves fifty people at one end hammering on the guy at the other end. At least, I know I have.

I've got T5 myself and have tried to like it, I played it a month or two, but I seriously can't like it, why? Here goes...

As mentioned there are a lot of superfluous things to Tekken. Not least of all the amount of characters, with some simply overpowered (we all know who) and some of no particular use. Worst of all are the movelists with completely ridiculous moves in them which always gets me feeling the designers took the following to heart: "We got four buttons, lets use em all!" instead of figuring out how a fighter would be. Of course VF has a lot of weird moves out there but almost everyone can be used when the situation arises. Where with Tekken I get the feeling the extra buttons only complexify the input while adding nothing. If they reduced it to three they could keep all the moves on the list. But no, they have to hold on to a left-right mechanic which in most cases makes no sense whatsoever since you can't tell instinctively how a character will act when you press them in combination (together, or after one another).

Next up is the ducking mechanic, which bugs the hell out of me. Why can't I elbow (or general mid) out of a crouching position? why must I first cancel the ducking, go through a few frames of lame standup and get my ass handed over to me instead of hopping out from the defensive into the offensive. Or use a rising move, which are all too slow. In general the buffer mechanic in Tekken seems to remember the wrong things.

Then there's the non-existent, too easy to escape throw game, which is only useful for two characters... (Hence I play Julia, with Lei as my second, but he's another matter entirely)

10 hit strings?! (need I elaborate?)

That ridiculous spinning low kick where they simply stick a foot out and spin around on the ball of the other foot. Come on, you can't put any force on a move like that, it looks silly. I always get the feeling Krusty the clown is after me when I see it...

Then there are the people who think the storylines are works of art. Come on, people!

Last but certainly not least is the fact that to get to know your character of choice you need to print out a movelist and look up advice on the internet since there's simply no real training to be found in game. Oh yeah, we've got access to the movelist... *pause the game, go through a menu, look up your move, remember it, exit menu, try out move, note what it does, repeat from step one* for each move?! argh...

Really, I jumped from VF1R to VF4E and simply hopped through the training a bit and knew just about everything you need to know. Then I tried to hop into T5 with a background ranging from SF to SC, from SS to GGX, from VF to DOA (!!!!). And I can't get comfortable with Tekken... I played T5 for about as long as MKD. Maybe I'll try to pick it up again sometime.

Oh yeah, SC has the same buggy ducking mechanic that irks me to no end but the ease and pace of the game is simply too much fun. In Tekken the characters move like beached whales.

I once read another thing on this board which interested me greatly as well and I changed his little speech to the following:
"There's an undefinable difference between VF and other fighting games in that when you get better at VF the rounds get shorter while with other games it is exactly the other way around."
Think of it what you will, but do you want a game that rewards turtling or not? Heck, the term turtling is simply not even noted in VF documents, while it is a standard subject in other games.

And now I can still hear you ask why Lei?
Well, because I love Jacky Chan and second because he's the lowest tiered character out there.

 

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happy_GOH_lucky said:
"Retardation being the biggest reason. "
hmmm....i must say, people at tekken forum are a lot more respectful.

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No Fishie is just a douche, he's not even good at VF. Pay no attention.

Vortigar: WS+4s are the generally the fastest mids in Tekken, they are usually 11 frames. If a character doesn't have the universal WS4, they have something else similar to it (Steve's WS+1). I'm not sure how fast Julia's WS+4 is, but Lei's is the normal universal type. Hope that helps.

There are a lot of reasons why I like VF4 more than TK5, the central one being the accuracy of the mechanics. VF4 is the only 3D fighter that rivals the accuracy of 2D fighters. In Tekken the sidestep system is loose and prety much analog in nature, and leads to a lot of ambiguity in what can/can't be evaded in a given situation or makes certain juggles inconsistent because of axis problems. In VF4 everything can be measured accurately down to the frame. If I'm -11 and my opponent does a 12 frame linear move, I can evade it, no questions asked. In Tekken who knows what will happen, you'd have to test it, and even then you won't come to a final conclusion. Maybe you'd get hit trying to sidestep at -11, but you could sidestep the same move if you were only -4. Or maybe you can only sidewalk it. On top of that there are is no system governing the tracking properties of moves like VF's circular/half circular system. In TTT Jin's EWGF (right-handed linear-looking launcher) tracks to one side, while his WS+2 (right-handed linear-looking launcher) tracks in the opposite direction. Makes no sense.

Another huge reason is the 'forced' guessing game in Tekken is fucking weak, for two reasons. 1, most jabs are 8 frames, and 2, moves that collide on the same frame will trade (in VF4, the move that does the most damage wins, and hits on counter). Let me explain. In VF4, most jabs (the fastest attack) are 12 frames, and the fastest mid is usually 14 frames. A difference of 2 frames. So generally, if I have +2 advantage, I can beat any attack speed-wise with my fastest mid. In TK5, most jabs are 8 frames, and the fastest mids are 13 frames. That's a difference of 5 frames. 5 frames is a fucking lot...if you have +5 in VF, usually you can do your best launcher and beat your opponent's fastest attack.

So let's say I have advantage in TK5, and I want to use it. How much advantage do I need to force my fastest mid against an 8-framer? +6 (at +5 it will trade). Plus goddamn 6. That's a lot for just forcing a tiny basic mid attack. Now let's say I want to force my basic launcher (usually df/+2, 15 frames). I'll need +8 advantage...but wait! jabs are 8 frames! If I have +8, I can get free guaranted damage with 1,2, so why the hell would I want to try and force a guessing game that is not worth the risk? In addition to this, you can backdash -> attack to kill it. This is in VF4 as well, except in TK5 the reward is way higher, you can do it at bigger disadvantage, and it's way riskier, harder, and less rewarding to beat backdash in Tekken. Basically the only even semi-consistent thing you can do is long range throw, which can work well but the reward is ridiculously skewed. Generally when you have advantage in Tekken, all it means is "my jabs will beat your jabs", so you can duck -> WS launch someone for jabbing, which will get you hit by mids. That's the closest thing Tekken to a forced guessing game that I can think of.

This leads to Tekken being turtle friendly...all about spacing, baiting, and fishing for counter-hits. I remember people arguing about the higher, T3-esque damage, saying it makes the game more/less turtle friendly ("the reward is higher so people will be more offensive"/"juggles do so much that people will turtle so they don't get launched"). It doesn't matter. The reason Tekken is turtle friendly is because of the system.

In VF4, if you are at disadvantage, what is your best option? There is none. You have to use your brain and use the option you think is best for the situation, and everything has risk/reward. Empty evade? Easy, but it'll only beat one thing. Evade-throw escapes? That'll beat some good options, but you can get delay-launched. You could beat the delayed launch by launching yourself, but that carries big risk since you're attacking at disadvantage. You could take less risk by doing backdash -> evade, but you'll get less advantage by evading an immediate attack then if you evaded immediately and you could get thrown. Or you could do evade, CD-cancel-guard, but it's harder to punish their move after a successful evade since you are concentrating on guarding; it's a purely defensive technique. You could instead do evade, CD-cancel-attack, which you could get a guaranted launch, but if they do a delayed launch you'll get hit on counter (ouch). This is only basic stuff, there are more nuances things like immediate P beating backdash -> evade or delay P beating reverse nitaku launcher or delay throw guessing games, etc. Sorry for being long-winded, but the point is that VF4 forces you to act on defense.

In Tekken, what's your best defensive option? Hold back. If you see a throw, break it. If you see a low, block it. If you are too slow, you get hit. The game is turtle-friendly because the best option is to do nothing. You are encouraged to wait and react and not be proactive. There's low parry, but I hardly ever see it used, especially in Korean matches. It seems to be used mostly by strong player playing against not-so-strong players. High/low "crushes" (god I hate this term) are a step in the right direction though, since the safe ones provide a good way to kill jabs/duck jabs.

And then there's the TK5.0 bs. SNB, why even play? No one cares about 5.0 anymore. It seems Namco made some really smart decisions with DR, but who knows if it'll ever see a console release. Even if it does, I don't care too much, because even a balanced Tekken is still Tekken, and still has the same system that I don't really like. Still hope to play it though, seems like a fun game.

 

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Dandy_J said:



Another huge reason is the 'forced' guessing game in Tekken is fucking weak, for two reasons. 1, most jabs are 8 frames, and 2, moves that collide on the same frame will trade (in VF4, the move that does the most damage wins, and hits on counter). Let me explain. In VF4, most jabs (the fastest attack) are 12 frames, and the fastest mid is usually 14 frames. A difference of 2 frames. So generally, if I have +2 advantage, I can beat any attack speed-wise with my fastest mid. In TK5, most jabs are 8 frames, and the fastest mids are 13 frames. That's a difference of 5 frames. 5 frames is a fucking lot...if you have +5 in VF, usually you can do your best launcher and beat your opponent's fastest attack.

So let's say I have advantage in TK5, and I want to use it. How much advantage do I need to force my fastest mid against an 8-framer? +6 (at +5 it will trade). Plus goddamn 6. That's a lot for just forcing a tiny basic mid attack. Now let's say I want to force my basic launcher (usually df/+2, 15 frames). I'll need +8 advantage...but wait! jabs are 8 frames! If I have +8, I can get free guaranted damage with 1,2, so why the hell would I want to try and force a guessing game that is not worth the risk? In addition to this, you can backdash -> attack to kill it. This is in VF4 as well, except in TK5 the reward is way higher, you can do it at bigger disadvantage, and it's way riskier, harder, and less rewarding to beat backdash in Tekken. Basically the only even semi-consistent thing you can do is long range throw, which can work well but the reward is ridiculously skewed. Generally when you have advantage in Tekken, all it means is "my jabs will beat your jabs", so you can duck -> WS launch someone for jabbing, which will get you hit by mids.

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Thats the thing that got me when I was discussing the game with a tekken player, the trading process seems flawed, on last hit close round situations, there's no point risking a bigger move due to the trade. (you could say the same for most games in terms of risk, but in vf for eg, everyone remembers a well timed major counter knee or spod finish with akira).
VF rewards balls, tekken dosn't it seems to me?
I dunno the game seems fun to me but the amount of defence options are limited and there dosn't seem as much variety as to what you can do with moves.

 

I play Tekken but I always have from Tekken 1 so I'm still a fan, I only liked VF 2 cos of Lion really and at that time I was a big fan of Praying Mantis Kung-Fu. Never really got into VF3 but when 4 came out, I got into it and realised how deep the game got. To be honest, I ain't good at either game, I just love playing them and watching the pro's play each game.

In Terms of characters, Tekken wins hands down. VF Characters seem too cliche and uninspiring for me except for Goh. Storyline for both sucks to be honest but T5 is slightly better than VF in that department even though it's more of a faily feud game with Mishimas and Kazama's appearing out of no where.

Gameplay wise, it's a draw for me as I like to attack and do combo's since I've got a small background from Capcom fighting games and the thought of just catching opponants again and again really seems cool to me. I know you can do it in VF too but not as badly. VF requires skill and a bollocking load of good timing and predictions. VF is also the other way round to Tekken where it's more Defense than the charging style of Tekken IMHO. I like both games equally in all reality.

I just hate when they people compare Tekken to SC3. They just don't get that SC3 is a completely different game in my books apart from it's a fighting game. As for DOA, it's not worth mentioning in my books. It's a fun pick up and play for a while but you can't go deep enough in it. Watching it being played at work looks uber boring. It's just eye candy.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

I totally agree with happyGOH, there are a lot of reasons why people prefer Tekken to VF or, for example, one sport to another, and you cant judge somebody for their preference BUT I must say that even though I am both a Sega and Namco fan (and of course, Capcom) I had to start distancing myself from Tekken and stopped taking it seriously, versus-wise, a long time ago. Due in part to a Tekken fight I witnessed between my best friend, Killa, and a ten year old at a local arcade in NY. Both me and Killa been playing Tekken for years, since the first one and we still do (he usually bests me 6-4), when this 10 year old kid who was pretty new to the Tekken world (this kid started playing when Tekken 3 came to the PS) beats Killa not once, not twice but 3 times in a row, and I bet you know how he did it, partially skills partially button-mashing.
There's is no way a newbie is going to come in to a VF game and just start whupping ass doing some button mashing. I mean this 10 year old was getting out of throws (button mashing), landing counter attacks, and partially pulling off most of his 10 hit dial-up combos. I beat the kid for Killa (after I watched him fight and sat there and blocked his barrage, like a good turtle, until I found some breaks) but I've realized that as I grow older I want deeper, more mature, games that make me feel that when I beat them it wasnt by luck or by using dirty tricks or something like that but that I actually beat it with mostly or all skills. Most little kids dont want to invest time and effort in order to get good, they want to pick up a game and master it that same day, if not, that very first week and there is just no way you can master VF in a day or become a top player in a week. You gotta work to earn your VF stripes. It's just like those people that join a MARTIAL ARTS class and expect to be kicking ass and swinging nunchakus like
BRUCE LEE in week or two, what do they end up doing? That's right, quitting saying the same kind of stuff they'd say when they quit VF, saying stuff like "man, this sucks". There's a sense of accomplishment in beating a skilled VF player more so than beating a skilled Tekken player where all I gotta do is keep em down on the ground and NEVER LET THEM GET UP. Is that skill? I mean if your character's got an infinite combo and my character's got an infinite combo then is'nt just a race to see who's gonna land their infinite combo first? (also you could score nothing but perfects using the right characters and some of the cheap wall-tactics of Tekken). But dont get me wrong, I still got love for Tekken, (the zany characters, the whacked out storylines, the cool win poses, the CG intros and outros, nostalgic value, hard hits and explosions, and fast-paced not-that-much-thought-process-to play style) but IF YOU COMPARE VF GAMES (which by the way are more like fight simulators) WITH TEKKEN GAMES (but you cant compare VF1 with Tekken 1 cuz Namco had way more time to develop it after Sega started the whole thing) GRAPHICALLY, TECHNICALLY, INNOVATIVELY AND PROGGRESSIVELY VF'S GOT TEKKEN BEAT ON MY SCORECARD. Compare VF5 with Tekken5 Dark Ressurrection and tell me which one looks better.

 

Tekken 5 vs. VF4

I don't play Tekken 5 much because frankly I don't see the need for it. It lacks the flash and ease of SC and DOA. But it doesn't have the side step engine or precision of VF. I don't see the point in playing it. If I want fair and balanced competition, then I play VF. If I want to see computer boobs bouncing I play SC or DOA. In my opinion the ultimate combination of bouncing boobs and button mashing is SC. True, the duck engine is glitched and guard-impacting is so easy it ruins the game, but the side engine is light-years better than Tekken and DOA (at lower levels anyway). Plus, you can't beat commands like A, A, A and B, A, B or my personal favorite B, A, A.

As someone said earlier, the sidestep engine is inconsistent. Without a consistent sidestep engine you really have a 2-D fighter.

But to answer your question....

Most people who prefer Tekken to VF either,
1) Don't know that is it not fair and balanced competition

OR

2) Know that it is not fair and balanced but don't care.

Said another way,

They either don't know any better, or they like exploiting people who don't know any better.

 

Are you serious, happy goh lucky? Are you freaking serious?! How can you come to a forum for VF and ask us to compare it to tekken? What kind of response were you hoping for? It's pretty damn obvious that the tekken players prefer tekken and VF players prefer VF. And the caption, "don't be biased..." it's kinda like asking a retard to stop being retarded. Don't take this as a flame, dude. If you take the time to think about the topic "carefully," what do you think the general consensus will be?

P.S. The tekken players might be more polite on the boards, but they'd be the first to punch you in the throat in real life if they could.

 

did i not mention that im a noob at not only at VF but fighting game in general? what would u expect a newbie in the fighting genre to ask....

 

its nice to know taht there are some ppl here that agree with me "RagingSilver", and "tonyfamilia". thats why i post this in the non-VF section discussion.

 

yes and please keep it here, you've tainted many of other threads with the exact same topic.

 

first of all, i would like to appologized to those whom i "irritate" by comparing VF to other popular 3d fighter (whose name i will now wont mention). you guys have to understand one thing, that i am just recently started with 3d genre over the past 2-3 months,spending a lot of time playing some "over-the-top game". only just recently did i got into VF. you have to excuse my over zealous comments on these games with my limited background. with that said, i am trying to have some quality time with VF bc it intrigued me so much.

anyway, im just curious, are there any VF player who are females. from my understanding, not a lot of female are into 3d fighter, if at all. i only know one girl who is playing 3d fighter and HOLDS HER OWN with the boys at my university. Though, she doesnt like VF, she is really good at "the other 3d fighter game".

 

This is such a funny thread... It is! I can't help myself... ^_^

The majority of gamers are still male. Especially when it comes to fighting games there are very few girls about. And then there's also the splice between 3d and 2d fighters that narrows that group down even further. The amount of girls left after all those divides is indeed extremely small. Guilty Gear seems to hold a lot of sway with girls though, but that's probably got to do with anime fandom. On the other hand, a female collaegue of mine loves playing fighting games for a pass-time, so whaddya know?

But whether they be boys or girls or what have you not (not a lot probably), most will opt not to play VF simply because of its appeal and the image its got. I don't know exactly what image it is, but it pales in comparison to Namco's titles. And with the recent critics' praising to heaven of DoA4 we're outta luck on that front as well.

And the Japanese don't seem intent on investing a lot in the Western market with VF5 as well. So this crew of ours will probably stay small.

Whether or not girls are better at fighting games than boys or not is a discussion I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole... (its a rather lame discussion as well btw.)

As for the iritation thing, as I said before (taking the liberty to speak for the lot), all of us VF-ers have heard the different discussions millions of times, so we can get a bit 'overdone' at times. As said, we want to keep the discussion limited to this thread.

Aside: Yes I will have to experiment with rise attacks in T5... use a #4 you say? Ok, thanks! (For the time being I'm playing SC3 though)

 

[ QUOTE ]
SiLLyWiLLy said:

"... It's pretty damn obvious that the tekken players prefer tekken and VF players prefer VF. And the caption, "don't be biased..." it's kinda like asking a retard to stop being retarded."

"P.S. The tekken players might be more polite on the boards, but they'd be the first to punch you in the throat in real life if they could.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, thanks SillyWilly... I think... wait, are we the retards?
/versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
j/k seriously though, not trying to defend happy but I think that maybe he just wanted to know why we prefer VF to Tekken, but I gotta ask, what's all this talk about Tekken freaks being more polite than us, most VF players are either more intellectual or more mature than Tekken players and I have seen VF fans get toasted on Tekken forums just for bringing up VF. I mean most Tekken fans are little kids, does anybody honestly think that they're going to respond in a more polite way towards us if somebody posted this on one of their sites :
"VF5 vs Tekken4(dont be biased!)
No offense to you happy but, no, they would'nt.