Tekken 8 actual game play.... WTF?

Its colorful, I'll give Tekken 8 that, but WTF with that janky, stiff 2D-like animation. I know Tekken movement has been moving away from 3D (if it ever was) more toward 2.5D since Tekken 5. But now not only is the movement 2.5D the animations are looking more and more like a 2D fighter.

I know Harada is chasing that Streef Fighter money, but C'mon Tekken 4 was on the right graphics and movement track and then it all started falling apart

I know the usual Tekken fan boys are hyped and can't wait to get the game, but IMO Tekken 8 is the ugliest, most gawdy, 2.5D wanna-be, bulky-character-designed version of Tekken yet.

I play Tekken from time to time, however I've drawn the line at Tekken 6. I was given a copy of Tekken 7 as a gift. (But it collects dust). But you couldn't even give me a copy of Tekken 8. Even if I won it as a door prize, I would leave it at the door I tried to watch some Tekken 8 exhibition matches., I really tried But between all of the on screen explosions, the exaggerated muscles, over-the-top-animations, weapons fire, hit sparks, and janky 2.5D movement I couldn't tell WTF I was even seeing

If the Fighting Game genre dies, it will be all Tekken 8's fault


Please RGG & Virtua Fighter 6 for the love of God, take note of the direction that Tekken 8 is moving, and go in the opposite direction

 

I am dissapointed how Tekken 8 is using incredibly fantasy oriented fighting styles. A few characters like Hwoarang still carry that feel, but it is definitely downplaying the martial arts aspect.

Tekken 4 was controversial because it didn't feel like the Tekken many know and love. It is without a doubt the most innovative Tekken game, but is was also incredibly flawed as well. As for the presentation, Tekken has always combined over-the-top fantasy stuff with down to earth martial arts. Tekken 4 was a bit too focused on the ladder, while Tekken 8 is too focused on the former.

Personally, I disagree. The presentation is too focused on fantasy, but otherwise it looks great in my opinion. The character designs (with the exception of bryan) feel like logical next steps for the characters, and when martial arts are being represented, they look amazing.

It sounds like Tekken just personally isn't for you. Tekken 4 seems like your favorite one and it seems like it's because it is the most like Virtua Fighter. If Tekken was exactly like Virtua Fighter, people would have no reason to play it instead of VF. People play it over VF precisely because it's not VF. Now that's not to say that VF's game design is bad, it's that it doesn't appeal to everyone, just like Tekken.

Many of the hit sparks are there to give clear indications of what moves do. For example, homing moves are represented with green or red lines, power crushes are represented by a steam effect, and blue and orange sparks signify heat engagers.

Many die hard fans of Tekken have overwhelmingly positive reception of Tekken 8 because of how it's gameplay feels. So it probably won't be because of Tekken 8, unless other games try to be like Tekken 8 when they aren't.

This point I actually do agree with. Virtua Fighter is not Tekken and it should not be Tekken. It is a very different game with very different playing fields.

It seems like you are judging Tekken 8 by it's presentation alone. I feel that judging a video game exclusively by its presentation is unfair because game design goes far beyond that.

 

@Solomon Rayland thanx for taking the time to clarify your points. And your points are valid. For sure we have differences of opinion but your points are reasonable.

You're right! I am only judging Tekken 8 by its presentation alone. Because for me,., if a game's presentation is ugly its hard for me to kiss it And imo Tekken 8 is butt ugly.

Keep in mind that I'm usually more interested in single player aspects of Fighting Games., So the fact that the roster was unbalanced, or if it had infinities, or was unfair from some competitive P.O.V does not cause it to lose points in my book. I also think Tekken 4 had the smallest fireballs and hit sparks

I also play Tekken precisely because its not VF. But I'm limiting which Tekken to Tekken 2, 3, 4,5, and 6. I never played Tekken 1 so I can't speak on it. I have played Tekken 7 a few thousand matches or so, but the rage art, rage drives, exaggerated body types, and poor customization were all just a bridge too much for me. So I put it down during the pandemic and haven't looked back Tekken 2 thru 6 are o.k. Of course they're all inferior to VF. But for what they are its all good.

As I've posted dozens if not scores of times, I personally feel 3D fighters should innovate in the opposite direction of 2D fighters. So instead of Tekken taking ideas and direction from Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear, etc. it should be doing things that 2D fighters simply can't do. It should take advantage of 3D animations, 3D concepts, 3D space, 3D motion capture defensive and offensive possibilities. Sure Tekken could still be fantasy based, but there's so much more that can be done with 3D concepts, but Tekken /Harada only wants to chase tired 2D gimmicks, bogus power ups, and noob comeback mechanics

Of course, replacing the hit sparks and explosions with legitimate 3D body reactions/ motion capture would cost more money and take more programming, but the end result would be far more visceral Instead of incredible 3D action sequences, Tekken is spitting out 2.5D very janky mechanical looking hit and kick contacts blurred over and glossed over by hit sparks, and graphical pixel explosions.

@Solomon Rayland that's why they're called die hard. Die hard fans hold on to something long after they should have let go of it Tekken 7 had far less features and bang for the buck than Tekken 6. Fans should have revolted in outrage, when team battle, survival mode, ghost battle etc were dropped and replaced with a slimmed down, scaled down treasure battle. Tekken 7 destroyed several of the body types, and switching out Bruce for Fahkumran And the customizations compared to Tekken 6 are just hideous And how much was the total cost of Tekken 7 with the season pass and all of the faux DLC characters that they took out of Tekken 6 just so you could pay to put them into Tekken 7 I think I paid $39.99 for a complete Tekken 6

Of course the die hard fans can take far more abuse, than a casual fan. Some of the die hard fans actually enjoy being abused. hence the moniker die hard.

First, the primary function of hit sparks is to cover up the lack of good animations for offensive or defensive contact graphics. Contact graphic programming/motion capture can be difficult,expensive and time consuming.

Second, the hit sparks attempt to create the ooh-ah-ouch of damage being dealt out to the opponent. And this use of hit sparks are fine in a 2D world of graphic sprites. BTW this is where and why hit sparks were created. That is to give a sense of full contact between two 2D graphic sprites. But the idea is over 25 years old. And now instead of coming up with better graphic contact programming or contact Mo-cap all of these game developers take the cheap way out and just generate bigger and bigger hit sparks

Sure once the developers settle on the fact that they're going to use hit sparks instead of coming up with defensive and offensive contact graphics, the next logical step is to associate the color of the hit spark with some meaning in the game. Whoopy Doo

To the contrary Tekken 8 may very well be the ultimate demise of fighting games, because all eyes are on Tekken 8 and at this juncture, to me Tekken 8 is demonstrating a failure of imagination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_of_imagination

 

You're welcome! I just felt like we had a difference of opinion and wished to share mine.

That is a fair opinion. If the presentation doesn't appeal to you, it's perfectly fine to not play the game and point it out. However, it shouldn't be the only thing regarding a game's quality.

I think the backlash was more because the legacy game mechanics like backdashing was weakened. This contributed to a less deep and and less Tekkenlike gameplay experience. I'll get to hit sparks in a minute.

Many of the older Tekken games were very well received. Especially Tekken 3, which became the highest rated one to this day! I mostly agree with your opinion on Tekken 7, but I do think that it's okay to put super moves in 3d games (if you are hinting at removing super moves).

I most certainly agree! 3D fighters have an advantage over 2D fighters because they can embrace 3D movement such as sidestepping.

I don't feel that 3D fighters can't have 2D mechanics. I don't see any reason why special cancelling and install power ups can't be in 3D fighters. With that said, 3D fighters should still embrace their 3D movement and more visceral feel. Tekken 8 does have strong movement, but it's also downplaying the down-to-earth martial arts aspect.

You're probably right to criticize this. Soul Calibur 1 was beloved when it came out because of how viceral and realistic it felt. Tekken 8 just isn't doing that.

That's probably true. I don't really have anything to disagree with here.

I can see perfectly how this shows a lack of effort and creativity. Hit sparks weren't really the right word for that reply however. Clear indications of move properties is a better way to explain it.

The gameplay at the moment seems fantastic. However, it would certainly end in a disaster if other 3D fighting games adopted Tekken 8's visual style. So we should be wary of that. It probably wouldn't be the death of all fighting games however, probably just 3D fighters.

 

Yea, I get the whole indication thing. And you are right to describe it as a lack of effort and creativity.

Think of this way. VF was able to have 3D game play without these kinds of indicators for 2 decades. There are many very high level players, many tournaments over that two decades., classic fights, thousands of casuals played the game over that 2 decades and really didn't need, miss, or even ask for those kinds of indicators.

On the other hand take a look at VF's animations for throw escapes. AM2 designed animations for this kind of defensive move. AM2 designed specific animations for reversals. It would have been much easier just to throw up some kind of flash or sound indicator to communicate a throw escape, or reversal but AM2 came up with pretty awesome animations. And in several cases they are even character specific (i.e. different animations for different characters).

Now if we take this further. Instead of having one or two animations for all blocks. 3D techniques can be used to create unique but global animations (applicable to all characters) for

• High Block Animation
• Mid Block Animation
• Low Block Animation

• Side High Block Animation
• Mid High Block Animation
• Low High Block Animation

So that would be six different defensive animations applicable to all characters. Now let say that character 1 performed a high attack on character 2 and character 2's either used to a mid, or low block command, or their high block command was not in time. Then there would be a high attack landed animation. What does this mean? Well


There would be six global (applicable to all characters) animations for that corresponded to the attack landded.

• High Attack Landed Animation
• Mid Attack Landed Animation
• Low Attack Landed Animation

• High Side Attack Landed Animation
• Mid Side Attack Landed Animation
• Low Side Attack Landed Animation

In both cases the Block Animations, and the Attack Landed Animations are clear enough indicators to spectators and to the players about what just happened. If the block was successful everyone would see it with their eyes. If the attack was successful, everyone would see it with their eyes. In the same way that the throw escape animation is so clear in VF. There is no question when a reversal, throw escape, sabaki, etc happens in VF, because VF has a specific clear animation for it.

Of course, this would require 12 global animations that would have to be worked out for each character. all while dealing with edge detection issues, and character customization issues.

Of course, just like in VF there could be character specific animations (some characters have them others don't) Like AOI's reversals, or Jackie's counters. That would add even more spice.

3D fighting games can pull off these 12 animations, whereas it would be reeeally difficult to pull this off in a 2D fighting game. But rather than 12 animations, its just easier, cheaper, and quicker to display colorful attack, or defense indicators a.k.a Hit Sparks.

If you look real close at Tekken 8's attacks, kicks, and throws there is a great deal of overlap between characters. The attack are starting to look very homogeneous.

The martial arts focus is what brought some of the character uniqueness, and move set diversity to the game. Now its difficult to even tell if a particular martial art is being used. All the kicks, punches, and evades look extremely the same and the lines are blurring between this style and that style. Tekken 8 looks more like a simple 3D brawler than ever before Its not about this martial art vs that martial art., Its a bout kapow, boom, bang, argh!, umph!, clash!, KO!

And its distressing to even talk about the defensive animations in Tekken 8. How many defensive animations are there even in the game? There is barely a difference between high block, and low block animations. Is there any difference between High block and Mid block animations?

And if we're talking martial arts, Karate defensive options are somewhat different than Judo defensive options, which are somewhat different from Muay Thai defensive options, which are somewhat different than Boxer defensive options and so on. The animations should be different in each of these different cases. I'm not saying that they have to be spot on realistic, but there should be some visible (animation) difference in how Steve defends versus how Lei Wulong defends But not in Tekken it all runs together, lines are blurred, and the martial art (fantasy or otherwise) goes out the window

Of course 3D fighters could adopt 2D techniques But why should they

There is so much unexplored 3D territory, and so many known but unused 3D fighting game techniques, why should 3D fighters have to reach back into the 2D bag to get help in making their game fun, interesting, and understandable

The fact of the matter is a complete Tekken 7 (all DLC) was more than a hundred dollars and in return the players saw Team Battle removed, Ghost Battle removed, Survival mode removed, a shortened Arcade Mode, characters dropped, generic customization replaced character specific customization and so on.

A complete Tekken 8 (All DLC) will probably cost between $150 to $200 . And for this kind of money Namco should put in the time, effort and customer respect, to modernize their 3D fighting engine to explore what's possible in 2023-2024, instead of borrowing and relying on antiquated 2D fighting game gimmicks and offensive/defensive animation contact techniques that hail from the late 90's.

 

That is actually pretty cool! That would be an excellent way to give clear indications while also showing effort. I am 100% on board with that!

You're absolutely right on this one! There should be variety in that regard relating to the martial arts being used. I'm also on board with this.

Many people who are into fighting games grew up playing primarily 2D fighting games. This is why you never see legacy fighting game players like Daigo and Tokido and others play 3D fighting games. I think 3D fighting games can implement 2D techniques, but should focus more on the advantages that 3D fighting games have over 2D fighting games.

That is an excellent point. You should be getting your money's worth given how expensive video games are at this point. Thankfully, Tekken has always been about its movement and Tekken 8 was no exception. However, the game is 2D everywhere else.

 

Think about this How do you think players who were born after 2005 feel about 2D fighting games Most of them have probably never even seen a real arcade let alone played Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, or VF in the arcades.

When 2D fighting games in the arcades were first introduced, the graphics at that time were state of the art! The sprites, the moving backgrounds, 16 simultaneous colors was like wow SF, MK, Tekken etc were established in those days, many of the original move sets from those games are still present in 2023 And face it 2D is where the arcade fighting game was born. No one can take that away. And from a certain nostalgic P.O.V. there will always be players playing 2D fighting games and giving homage to the 2D genre. But Virtua Fighter introduced the 2D fighting game world to brand new possibilities. Namco jumped on the 3D bandwagon but didn't want to leave the large 2D fighting game community behind so they tried to have cake and eat it too. Its been that way from the beginning for Namco. Yu Suzuki took a risk though. With his Virtua series he was breaking the mold of well established fantasy based arcade experience by introducing arcade realism.

Virtua Fighter had none of the fireballs, explosions, flying, appearing/disappearing, monsters, animals, whirlwinds, super moves, power-ups, or magic in a match that the other fighting games of the time had but rather relied on pseudo realistic martial arts presentations , beautiful movement, and realistic stages. It was about as close to a martial arts simulation you could get on an arcade machine and still expect people to have fun playing it Namco and Tekken didn't want to take that risk, so they added fighting kangeroos, panda bears, fighting robots, monsters, explosions, flying, magic, super natural elements, etc in order to stay in good with the well established 2D audience and market. And Tekken has been cashing in on that model for about 30 years! If-aint-broke-don't-fix-it How much has Heihachi, Jin, and Kazuya's moves really changed in the last 30 years


Whereas Tekken, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter etc might have been state of the art fighting games in 90's and early 2000's, computer processing power has grown exponentially, computer graphics engines (e.g. Unreal Engine 5, Blender, etc) have taken 3D processing capability to an entirely different stratosphere. Home monitors now on average at 1K to 4K in resolution. Add to that advances in machine learning, and motion capture and the possibilities for a fighting game in 2023 and beyond have made 2D and even 3D arcade fighting games a thing of the past.

Players born after 2005 really have a different conception of what a fighting game is, than those born before 2005 When we refer to Tekken or Virtua Fighter die-hard fans, how many of those were born after 2000 I think Tekken and Virtua Fighter will alway be around in the same way that people still play Pacman Tetris, & Galaga they're classics. Tekken is a classic, Virtua Fighter is a classic. Street Fighter is a classic. Mortal Kombat is a classic. But modern fighting games have moved on.

We've been discussing the merits of 2D, 2.5D mechanics in a 3D fighting environment, but that's an obtuse and obscure discussion for players born after 2005 What they call fighting games, the old-skool FG community does not even consider fighting games. And when those born after 2005 pick up a game like Tekken 7 they feel like theyr'e visiting old skool games I hear things like "My dad used to play MK" or when I was little my moms use to be a beast playin Street Fighter

I just finished Wo Long Fallen Dynasty (very hot game right now) and the whole subject matter of 'Martial Arts' was boiled down into 2 special moves per character

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wo_Long:_Fallen_Dynasty

The current state of the art and future of 3D fighting games can be found in:

 

That's a really good point. Games like Sifu aren't fighting games but are games based around fighting. Yet they manage to show visceral fighting more so than the majority of actual fighting games today.

One thing I would like to mention is that MK actually was a full 3D fighting game series in the 2000s! It's completely irrelevant to your point, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Oh yea I have that version and I do enjoy it

 

I love being a part of this community! Everyone is so kind and respectful, and I feel like I can safely talk about anything regarding fighting games here.

 

I share most of your opinions. The game appears to be a lazy mod of Tekken 7 with 2D mechanics hastily incorporated into a messy visual mess (very tiring to watch on stream). I'm very disappointed with the stages; they may look nice and have apparent graphical effects, but there are no new 3D interactions. And of course, the netcode doesn't seem great, which is understandable since it's built on the foundations of Tekken 7 (good Luck to devs to get a good netcode with that! ). Watching Twitch this weekend, the game quickly went from 31k viewers to 10k, and even down to 5k at the end, despite having many characters in the roster. It's somewhat subjective, but it seems like the streamers weren't really enthusiastic while playing. Looking at Virtua Fighter, it's often cited with very interesting observations on some recent videos about Tk8:

 

That first video makes me sad . From so many sources I thought that Tekken 8 would finally have actually good 3d movement and that video said otherwise. I guess that VF remains the only 3d fighting game that actually gives a thing about its 3d movement. I play 3d fighting games because of their 3d movement, because their not 2d fighting games. If I feel like playing a 2d fighting game, I feel like it. A 3d fighting game should give me what makes a 3d fighting game.

 

I used to be all the way optimistic about Tekken 8 because of its supposed buff in 3d movement, but now...

... I'm sorry that I ever disagreed with your opinion on Tekken 8 @masterpo. I owe you an apology.

 

@Solomon Rayland no need for apology, its never my goal to change your opinion or anyone else's. I'm just trying to back up my own statements.

Its my opinion that VF has superior 3D movement to Tekken and overall has a more beautiful presentation than Tekken and Tekken's presentation especially what I've seen from actual game play of Tekken 8 seems more janky, stiff, mechanic and 2D sprite like than ever before. That opinion is not meant to change your opinion or optimism for the upcoming Tekkn 8, but only to share and support my opinion about Tekken 8..


There are many players that enjoy and prefer Tekken's bombastic 2D-3D hybrid presentation. There are also no shortage of Tekken fans that would totally accept it if Tekken dropped the 3D movement altogether

So please don't change your opinion or optimism for Tekken 8 on my account. But Tekken fans should definitely hold Namco accountable for dropping so much content in exchange for just larger Hit Sparks a Heat Mechanic, and more weapons in the game

 

I'll still try Tekken 8, but I'm no longer all the way optimistic about it. Thank you so much for trying to support my individual opinion. I feel like the VF Community are like distant friends that are always there for each other. By far the best community out there. To be fair, it's the only community I've been a part of, but it seems like the best community ever!

 

I certainly agree with you here. VF community are some of the nicest folks you ever meet, if you get to meet some of them in person, and they are for the most part very cordial online and in forums. They are always ready to help and share the knowledge. In general I have found them some of the kewlist peeps. We have our disagreements and disputes, but its usually all in fun and most cases the disagreements turn out to be educational for all involved

I will be looking forward to your full review of Tekken 8 after you have played it for a while and seen it up close.

 

Seems like you woke up with hate poisoning @masterpo Tekken is Tekken. And Tekken is gonna be Tekken. Whatever the Hell Tekken is, Simply is whatever the hell Tekken will be

Anyway I'm just glad it's got one of the best eye candyies - especially compared to Mortal Kombat: ( lol & sad emoji

Husbandos & Waifus for everyone LEL

Thanks Harada