Tekken and VF players

most people who play capcom games kinda know that alex valle tends to favor the philosophy of "rush that shit down." he likes aggressive play; just watch his MVC2 videos of him using sentinel. so i'm guessing maybe that's why he stopped playing the VFseries at the 4th incarnation; no more crazy ksing for your offense, making it seem to the casual player like another VF2(of course, we all know that it's not).

 

the first time hwoarang's crazy legs were spotted, it didn't really drive up his popularity, it just increased the enthusiam of his fans, and gave them something else to work on, bob (hwoarang) is still at the same level as always

however, mist step, light dashing, and ogre's were all adopted by other players...for the most part.

and as for vf players being able to adopt the tekken system with little difficulty, it depends on which tekken they start with, starting with t4 is a huge mistake, first of all, evasions mean nothing, it seems that the system will ss just right when you don't want it to, and when you want it to, you'll get him.

 

i used to be purely anti-VF(more like anti-sega) i thought it was just some mashing , so i switched to tekken and stuck with tekken for bout 6 years now and i've finally had a chance to sit and play VF ( now that it's on PS2) and it's pretty good and everyone can wd forward and backward w00t cd mix ups for days ...wonder if you can cd cancel like tekken?...hummm?

 

yes you can, you wavedash fanatic /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

read either my FAQ or look for the posts on CD cancelling

 

They call it "wavedashing" in Virtua Fighter also? 0_o I don't think so. Oh well, maybe so. I'll still just call it CD cancelling for now cuz to call it wavedashing sounds funny to me, hehe.

oh yeah and i know its all late and stuff and i should have said this in my earlier post but after i found out how good tekken was i ended up fallin off of the VF series then ended up hating VF with a passion cuz it wasn't "tekken"( i totally flipped the switch) and it didn't have the CG movies, Music and Character designs like Tekken did. I was about 16 when i started to hate on VF. Man am i ever glad i'm not like that anymore. If feels so good to be able to play both cuz then you can brag and make everybody else look bad, heh.

DLC and EWGF forever biotch!!!

 

no, it's not called wavedashing in VF, i think ReCharredSigh was refering to the VF FAQ for tekken players... (though i could be wrong).

however, it's almost the same concept, but totally different function as you cannot cancel a CD with G in the tekken games.. come to think of it, i wonder why so many ppl wait until part 4 of VF to actually enter the series? the game has been going around since 1991.... some ppl missed out big time in between. 0_o

 

i just started playing VFevo seriously last night. which is odd, since i have been an obsessive tekken fanatic for years. the way that both games funtion is very different, but both have a lot to offer. the main problem with tekken4 is how terrible the new characters (steve, marduk, christy) are.
namco just did not think things out very well with either of those three losers, and it really hurts the game. VFevo has so much more balance in the characters and i think that is one of the reasons why the game has become so much more popular. i currently live in japan, and right now VFevo is THE GAME that people play, while when i was here two years ago it was Tekken Tag. at any rate, as popular as VFevo becomes in japan, and as terrific as the game is, only the Mishima Clan will continue to defend the north gate of hell with their mighty Electric Wind God Fist.
oh, and namco's other big mistake was making all those attacks now hit high. those bastards. /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

had been a long long time since i posted this thread, and i had played VF exclusively for the past 2 years. something that i digged out.

first of all, as a tekken fan as i was, i totally realized how much deeper VF is, and that i respect VF much more than i would towards tekken 4. (i played since tekken 1, and i hated tekken 4 totally. namco really blew it this time IMHO.) i think it is not hard at all to pursuade a tekken person to give VFevo a try, for the gameplay, strategy, mentality is so much higher and so much more fun in VF. In fact, i believe that VF have given me the chance to upgrade my gameplay in Tekken tag, believe it or not. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

however, i do hope that some VFers can give Tekken tag a try too. it is an old game, but it is probably the best tekken game amongst the series. even though you cannot perform throw too well in tekken, (in fact i think throw is too efficient in VF. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif) there are still a lot of aspect of the game that people should also appreciate. but for some reason, it is harder to pursuade Vfers to play Tekken.

 

Wow, old ass thread..
I think, though, at the highest levels, VF and tekken are pretty much the same. This is an opinon not just shared by me. At the lower levels, there is a lot more b.s that goes on in Tekken. My friends main argument for tekken being better is that it allows for more creativity.

 

Tekken Tag is definitely the best that has come from the Tekken series so far. I do disagree that Christy, Marduk, and Steve are terrible in Tekken 4. It has been shown over and over that they are high calibur characters and most peoples issues with the characters is that the Mishima's aren't the same beasts anymore. Koreans are still showing that Christy/Eddy is very viable, TieTYT has shown the power of Marduk, and Steve is the elite/scrub choice if they can't choose Jin. NAMCO's problem in T4 is very basic. They didn't modify the game engine enough to take into account the usage of walls and other obstacles. They also forgot to balance teh characters a bit more. Jin has too much goodness, with little weakness. Kuma has a broken Salmon Hunter, Steve's and Paul's jabs have too much priority, and Lee's JF juggles are ridiculous. Hell, even King got an infinite. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif Tekken 4 was a valiant effort at upgrading the Tekken Franchise, but they didn't put enough effort in it. Namco nerfing a lot of moves to hit high with no special properties was actually a smart move, since it killed the cheese known as EWGF/MC-WGF 75% juggles. If they re-released TTT with the modified moves, hit properties, and adjustments to the other characters we would have a winner.

Scarily, at high level play T4 and VF4/VF4E are basically the same. Pokes, Mind Games, and set-ups to guaranteed damage.

 

I haven't found Tekken and VF to be similar at all other than the most basic similarities that are found in every single 3d fighting game ever made (frame advantage, hi/low mixup, and guaranteed damage situations).

While it was great to see the old TK2 characters back in TTT, I thought overall the game was a total failure, largely due to the nerf of crouching jabs (in TK3 they reset axis, which was absolutely crucial in reasserting advantage in many situations) as well as the addition of the universal df parry, which made low blocking essentially pointless.

But Tekken's problems run much deeper for me. I still have yet to figure out why Namco chooses to consider a crouching opponent who is attacking as a standing opponent, and the throw system is so incidental it's laughable. I also have severe issues with their ground and juggle systems, which seem disturbingly geared toward low investment and high return. Granted, I've played Tekken much longer and more thoroughly than I have VF, so I may end up discovering issues equally glaring. So far I haven't found one. I attribute this to what I interpret as AM2 making a concerted effort to build rules around their game systems, as opposed to Namco's strategy of simply acruing more and more game systems that lack any impactful rules.

Still, I'll probably continue to play both, as it's terribly easy to find people to play Tekken with, and almost equally inversely impossible to find VF competition.

 

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Marginal said:

Valle doesn't play VF last I heard. Aside from Tekken, he has no transferrable abilites in 3d fighting at all. (Much like most top 2d fighting game players.)
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hehe, your post is old.. but.. he did qualify for soul calibur 2 national tournament this year. That is a 3d fighting game I believe. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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sixtwo said:

I haven't found Tekken and VF to be similar at all other than the most basic similarities that are found in every single 3d fighting game ever made (frame advantage, hi/low mixup, and guaranteed damage situations).

While it was great to see the old TK2 characters back in TTT, I thought overall the game was a total failure, largely due to the nerf of crouching jabs (in TK3 they reset axis, which was absolutely crucial in reasserting advantage in many situations) as well as the addition of the universal df parry, which made low blocking essentially pointless.

But Tekken's problems run much deeper for me. I still have yet to figure out why Namco chooses to consider a crouching opponent who is attacking as a standing opponent, and the throw system is so incidental it's laughable. I also have severe issues with their ground and juggle systems, which seem disturbingly geared toward low investment and high return. Granted, I've played Tekken much longer and more thoroughly than I have VF, so I may end up discovering issues equally glaring. So far I haven't found one. I attribute this to what I interpret as AM2 making a concerted effort to build rules around their game systems, as opposed to Namco's strategy of simply acruing more and more game systems that lack any impactful rules.

Still, I'll probably continue to play both, as it's terribly easy to find people to play Tekken with, and almost equally inversely impossible to find VF competition.

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First of all crouching jabs, where never part of the T3 or TTT strategy, those two games were more about spacing than anything else. Load a couple of tournament vids if you don't believe me. Second of all, you're the only one I've heard complain about the universal low parry. Most Tekken players welcomed it with open arms because it gave you another option to deal with low attacks.

Also please tell me in what Tekken is a crouching opponent, who is attacking, considered a standing opponent. Ok so if I understand, that means if I'm doing an EWGF and my opponent does a high kick, I'm the one getting hit. Huh ????

About the throw system, you got Tekken players saying the same about VF4 system of escaping throws so that's more of an opinion than a flaw.

I agree that in T4, there's a couple of juggle and ground issues that Namco needs to fix. I also agree about the rules in VF4 being well executed, better executed than T4 without a doubt. But the games play differently one is chess (VF4) and the other is checkers. Both are fun but you have more rules to follow in one of them also you'll find more people who knows how to play checkers than chess. Well at least effectively.

See, it's guys like you, who gives Tekken a bad name. Please be very specific and come up with some better arguments when you make statements like TTT'' was a total failure.'' Tag is considered one of the best if not the best in the whole series. But there's no doubt that T4 has minor issues, but even with those issues, it's still top notch ! Not better than VF4 imo but still top notch !

 

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Bare_Knuckle said:

no, it's not called wavedashing in VF, i think ReCharredSigh was refering to the VF FAQ for tekken players... (though i could be wrong).
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<br>however, it's almost the same concept, but totally different function as you cannot cancel a CD with G in the tekken games.. come to think of it, i wonder why so many ppl wait until part 4 of VF to actually enter the series? the game has been going around since 1991.... some ppl missed out big time in between. 0_o

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VF4 was a success because, it's a great game, It's on the PS2, and the competition isn't as ferocious as it was back in the 90's. VF1 came out when everyone was playing SF2 and MK, not alot of people were into 3d back then and imo the game was revolutionary of course but it wasn't all that fun. However VF2 was a great game but unfortunately it had to go against Toshinden which was huge at the time. Same thing happened to 3 with SC, Tekken 3, Powerstone... VF4 didn't have competition when it came out and even if it did they would of got blown away. The kumite mode alone kills what any other fighting game as to offer, add a button smasher friendly Lei Fei and VOILA !!! VF4 PS2 greatest hits. It's about freakin time. After VF3, damn man, who would of thought ? It's like one of those underground musicians who finally gets recognition.

 

I understand that you have no idea what my contributions to the Tekken community have been, so I'll look past your generalizations that attempt to discredit me. Suffice to say that I've been playing the Tekken series since its inception, I have travelled the country to compete in it, I have assisted in the hosting of Tekken gatherings for E3, and I also was a contributing author on Brady Game's Tekken 3 Strategy guide by Ben Cureton (Just check the credits for an Omar Kendall contributing to the Ling Xiaoyu section. Hi, that's me).

As for crouching jabs, they are absolutely crucial to interrupting many of Tekken's high pressure custom strings, and they have been since TK2, and they were in TK3. They're not in TTT because they don't align on the axis anymore, so no I would never argue that they were a part of TTT's strategy. As for universal parry's, they're not simply another option to deal with low attacks, they're the only option you should be using. Why would you ever low block, unless you're purposefully trying to put yourself at a frame disadvantage? There's no "guessing right" about parry's; if you think a low attack is coming, parry. If you think a high/low mix-up is coming, parry. You'll be amazed how high your success rate is, trust me.

Crouching opponents who are attacking are considered standing. I have no idea what you were trying to illustrate in your EWGF example, so let me explain it to you. Let's say we take the good ol' crouching jab. If player 1 throws a crouching jab, and player 2 sidesteps and throws, he will throw player 1. With a "high" throw. When player 2 is crouching. That, in my opinion, is absurd. Some people are going to disagree with this, but for me VF has leaped clear over this issue so I don't even worry about it anymore.

With regard to throws, yes my opinion is clearly that, an opinion. But I can hardly see how any Tekken player would call VF's throw system incidental (which, by the way, means "of a minor, casual, or subordinate nature"). In Tekken, there are 3 ways to escape every throw in the game, and the in-game animation even tells you how to escape it. There are many, many was to escape throws in VF, that vary based on character, and there is no in-game clue that informs you how to escape the coming throw. Which one of those sounds subordinate to you?

So what kind of guy exactly am I? One that can critically analyze a game that while I certainly enjoyed playing for many years, is obviously a flawed product? Why should I have to come up with better arguments, when the ones I gave are very sound and correct? I have my opinion and I gave it, and while I respect that you disagree, don't somehow seek to make what I'm saying invalid simply because of that disagreement, because it's certainly not.

 

That's a much, much better explanation. However, I still don't agree about the crouching jabs being part of T2 or T3 strategy for the simple fact that you didn't have to use custom strings to be effective. For instance in T2, the strategy most people used when playing with Kaz and Hei was spacing and mixing up wgf and the hell sweeps. If your talking about the 10 hits strings then I agree but as a general strategy, then no. I know everyone plays differently, but in tekken good players don't finish their combo unless it's safe sometimes the maximum combo in a fight is only a 3 hit.

You don't always put yourself at a frame disadvantage when you block. Sometimes it's better to block then to parry. Ex : Paul vs Kaz. Kaz does a f,N,d,d/f+4 if Paul blocks it, Kaz gets a temporary stun. Paul does a ws+2 and launches Kaz. You should know about what type of damage Paul is capable of inflicting in juggles. Now if I low parry, I have frame advantage yes, but I'm positive that I won't be able to do as much damage as if I juggled unless you know a combo that I don't. Which is possible. I'm not sitting here saying that I know everything about the game.

The EWGF is a crouching attack, unless there's another version that I'm not aware of. In T4, where the crouching jab is effective, I've never had someone sidestep, and throw me. So I don't know if your right or wrong but I'll give it a try. Maybe your right.

I agree that the VF system is more complex but does it make it better no. In VF for characters like Aoi and Kage it's a big part of their game if you wanna be effective and keep your opponent guessing, so I understand why it would be more difficult to escape.While in Tekken King for ex : as alot of throws but doesn't need them as much as Aoi. The games don't have the same philosophy when it comes to throws. But I can't call the Tekken throw system a flaw. But you're entitled to your opinion.

The arguments that you came up with weren't enough for me to consider TTT ''a total failure''. The hardcore fans loved it and still do, most critics loved it, and the game was a commercial success around the world. Now if that ''is a total failure'' then I guess everyone is wrong and your right.

Your analysis needs to be more balanced, You only talked about the flaws. Give the people who've never played the game a clearer picture of the game, and not just the flaws. After reading your post they might think TTT is crap, which is far from being the case.

I never said anything about your contributions or what not. All the stuff you wrote just made you seem arrogant. I have no problem with opinions, but like I said before when you make a statment like TTT''is a total failure'' you have to give me real good arguments. And the ones you came up with weren't good enough for me but that's just my opinion.

P.S. : No disrespect, but I don't know you. Maybe it's because I never read those strategy guides in the first place.

 

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The EWGF is a crouching attack, unless there's another version that I'm not aware of. In T4, where the crouching jab is effective, I've never had someone sidestep, and throw me. So I don't know if your right or wrong but I'll give it a try. Maybe your right.


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While the EWGF does take advantage of a canceled crouch dash it is technically not a crouching move. In TTT it is classified as a Special Mid attack and in T4 it is a high attack. You could classify it as a crouch cancelled attack since it goes into a crouch position, then gets canceled into a standing attack within the last 3 frames. This also applies to Kaz's Mist Step Canceled WGF (T2, TTT, T4) and several of the the new JF's in T4. If you notice during the animation of a EWGF they never go into a full crouch.

 

Thanks for telling me. I always considered it to be a crouching attack, especially when you delayed it. But I guess I was wrong.

 

Well, I just got a copy of T4 so I will put some time into learning the game. From what I have observed, it is very, very similar to Virtua Fighter. My friends Ben and Ryan obviously are more adept at the game, so I had a lot of trouble keeping up, esp in the movement department, but I was able to just use patience, timing, and a little luck to score a few wins. The overall damage is less in Tekke, always has been, and the physics are more exaggerated. There is a bit more B.S, imho, in recognizing when you are at an advantage, and you generally do have to block a bit more, but it seemed to me that if you know the character your playing against, you can time an interupt move to turn the tables. The graphics are, like most namco games, much better on the home version than in anything I have seen in the arcades. The character models have a very nice look to them, the stages all have their nice plastic look (insert snicker). A personal preferance comes into play when talking about gameplay. I find that I like vf's throw escape system infinetly better, being able to buffer in guard escapes into a side step, into moves, etc. Tekken is so much more a "react lucky" game, in that you smack one of the attack buttons when your opponent is throwing you, or iin the middle of a multipart. This to me is a lot more luck based than VF, even though it is the same basic concept. My second gripe is the amount of attacking you can do to a grounded opponent. In vf you get OTB, but its still a few hits at best. In tekken it can be up to like 6+ hits. While they usually do not do a lot of damage, it just disrupts the flow of the fight.
Well, thats my two cents for now.....

 

Okizeme has been an extremely strong point of Tekken gameplay since about T3. Tekken 4 makes this more pronounced since walls and onstacles allow for massive Okizeme rapage(spelling looks wrong). The key for a downed opponent is to learn how each tech roll works and to know when to just lay. It's holds the similarity with VF that 90% of the time it's batter to lay still. Also, you have a slightly larger (although, still to the same effect as VF) base of recovery or standing up moves with which to interrupt your opponents okizeme. You will always have to be careful rising since most oki games are used to set you up BT and then you are dead as BT renders you absolutely vulnerable. The most commonly used safe rise is a quick recovery to low block. In low block many throws miss, it blocks common oki attacks, and allows for better MC set-ups. It just becomes natural after a bit. Against a decent opponent if you land and tech, then you are going to eat massive damage. Lay and then recover low to lessen life loss.

About the throw system. While you may be breaking some throws very easy you have to still be careful. It should be noted that while the throw system doesn't technically support throw escape buffering you can still do it. If you opponent goes for a throw, then you can enter up to 3 escapes during their initial throw window. Many at TZ will argue against this, but players like Jang Gi Jae and Seok Dong Min from Korea proved it's value by doing LP,RP,LP+RP incredibly fast to break probably 80% of throws used against them. You you do this as all seperate presses you can't do it fast enough so you have to press LP, then press RP, and while still holding RP press LP again. This allows a buffer of the RP break to be used in the LP+RP escape. This type of buffer is pretty common in many moves to increase speed of attacks or defense. A standard LP,RP taps is common when being thrown as it is breaks a very large base of throws. RP breaks the most of all throws in the game.You have 4 choices when going for a throw break (LP, RP, LP+RP, LK+RK). So you have to watch patterns of your opponent or know the most common damage throws per character to understand their breaks.

If you have character specific questions I can help. Since you are just trying T4 I would suggest Jin or Paul. They are the most user friendly with longevity.