Tekken poll

Discussion in 'General' started by Murasame, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    Tekken always catches a broadside around here... 'course, it's to be expected; it's usually busy being compared to VF. In a VF forum.
    But...stepping back...and looking at Tekken by itself...hasn't it always been a great game? Do you agree T4 would be a fine game if a couple of obvious adjustments were made?? (ottomh the poison of T4 is only an issue of 2 moves. I don't consider Jin's parry 'game-breaking')
    Or did you always think Tekken is shít, period? (Don't pull punches; it's better for all. Fact)
    And...is there any Tekken char you would want in VF?
    (VF needs Hwoarang)
  2. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    There will be a VF vs Tekken some time in the future....it's true
    But unlike CvS it won't be out of desperation...(hah I never miss the chance for a cheap shot)
  3. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Tekken always catches a broadside around here... 'course, it's to be expected; it's usually busy being compared to VF.

    If you mean that Tekken is always getting negative feedback here, I disagree completely. You'll probably see more Tekken bashing from ex-Tekken players than from VFers, or at least the regulars at this forum. Contrast that with the rampant VF bashing going on at tekkenzaibatsu.com. Those people don't even know why they don't like VF. They complain about "bad storyline", like that makes or breaks a fighting game. They complain about the ringouts. They go on and on about the guard button. You'll see a lot more VF vs. Tekken threads at TZ than at VFDC. And this thread is typical for a TZ thread (that's my opinion).

    Anyway, I think Tekken is a good game. But from the start, I've always been drawn to VF. And no, I wouldn't want to see any Tekken character in any game of the VF series.
  4. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    TZ? Let's see...
    ...shit you're right! (first 2 thing I see are VF bash threads)
    ...wait, half of them are defending VF inside(LOL).
    Of the bashers that're there, I see what you mean... some of them barely say anything. Either that or they're a Ringout Bitch. Or they want to block with back. <-- That isn't so bad... (When I ask someone why they play Tekken but not SC, it's almost a relief to hear them bitch about button-guarding; at least that's only a personal taste. Anything else would betray their cluelessness from the word go)
  5. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    Tekken has it's moments and it's different enough from VF to carve out it's own place in the fighting game world. I've always been a VFer first but I've grown to appreciate Tekken over the years especially when it was the hottest game in the arcade. 2 cents:

    About Tekken 4: Even if you took out the JF nonsense Tekken 4 would still have problems. Wacked out jab priorities, extremely neutered juggle system, weird stage tricks, lame throw game, and db to duck would all need to be fixed even before they get to the Steve's,Jin's, and Paul's. One problem Tekken 4 also might have is the fact that it's the fourth game in the series. People get burnt out and it doesn't help when Namco is lazy with the new moves and features (Lei, Nina,etc). People probably expected too much especially after Tag was basically an upgrade and got mega disappointed when it wasn't a crazy jump like 2 to 3. However to me the flatliner for T4 was when I found out Jin was just as overpowered as he was in TTT but now even a monkey could play him. Overpowered characters+braindead strategies=T4 demise which leads me to my second point.

    My main problem with the Tekken series: They just aren't well thought out games. Namco just throws shit in and hopes for the best. The "chicken" in TTT is the prime example of their attitude toward their game. Instead of trying to fix it so you couldn't play in a lame-ass way what do they do? Call you names. Who makes this game again? They act like they have no control over their product. They don't care enough to deeply explore their own games. Jin's JF LS? Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out this is BS? T4 shouldn't have a VF4 style training mode because half of the game's flaws would be exposed right there. If they don't care about their own games that much why should I?
  6. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    I don't get what you're saying about chickens. What's lame-ass? The ability to re-counter?
  7. BakuBaku

    BakuBaku Well-Known Member

    Im not even gonna get into my VF vs T4 mood in here cause I already did that at TZ, But! What that guy was saying about the chickens. I think the chickens are great. Counters in TTT/T3 Did way too much dammage, more than the average throw even. Also they were way easier to catch than VF counters/inashi. The addition of chickens was great because it made those countering fools step back alittle. Only if they were easier to do. They sooo hard to pull off!
  8. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    I'm talking about when you get a "chicken" by your win streak. If you play too defensively or use the same 2-3 moves over and over again the game will call you a chicken and give you a chicken symbol. It basically admits you can do some screwy things in the game that Namco didn't care to acknowledge. This is gone in T4 however.
  9. BakuBaku

    BakuBaku Well-Known Member

    Ooohh! That chicken. Still nothing wrong with that.
  10. Mirkan

    Mirkan Well-Known Member

    This is not like me, defending Tekken...

    Okay, I'm gonna start this off with saying that I'm not a huge Tekken fan in any way. I'm saying this now so I won't confuse anyone from either side.

    Tekken, in my opinion, is not the slow, worthless, mindless, mashing mess that some people make it out to be. I'm not saying this as if there aren't any people thinking otherwise, because clearly there are.
    However, it's a common impression among some people (yes, most of them are VF'ers) that Tekken is slow and sluggish, this isn't true. It feels sluggish, but if you actually play the game you'll understand why that's vital for the system to work.

    I was like that myself once, so if you would've asked me like a year ago I would've been all like "tekken is utter crap" etc. Now I've come to appreciate Tekken for what it is, it's not VF, and in my opinion it's nowhere near as good, but in it's own right it's a fully playable beat em up with its own set of working rules. If you learn to appreciate it, it's fun, and that's what counts, isn't it?

    Lastly I want to say that it's no coincidence that VF, SC and Tekken are the leading beat em ups, they're simply the best 3D fighters out there. Play Bloody Roar, Toshinden, Psychic Force, or any other 3D-fighter of your choice, they simply cannot match up.
    I'm leaving DoA out because it's obviously a very tender matter, I personally dislike it though, alot.

    Bottom line, I don't think Tekken is a bad game, it's a different game to VF and it takes its share of work and effort to appreciate. Maybe it's not for you, but don't write it off as a bad game, because there are games out there that are truly bad.
  11. EDK

    EDK Active Member

    What really bad:
    1) Screwy jab priority. 12 12 12...
    2) Sluggish movement. Useless 8 way and no back dash! And hold down back to squat? WTF!
    3) Buggy wall system.
    4) Overpowered character & move!

    What is good:
    1) Just frame for all character. Great idea!
    2) Err... can't think of anymore...

    What's good:
    1) Fair and well thought jab priority.
    2) Good and useful 8 way movement. Works great witht the ring out feature. Not to mention good ring out game. Kage user...
    3) Well thought wall system. No dead lock situation like T4 where u could get throw back to the wall indefinately!
    4) Very balance character power! Great testing work!

    What's not:
    1) Guard button. This is very weird. Ask any former 2D fighter player or any tekken player. I found it really limited. Removing a button to side step (in VF3) is a sign that Sega knows the problem of pressing button to initiate movement is strange...
    2) Option select. This makes player with great timing and skill have little advantage over those who don't as both of them could execute a move with perfect timing. There's more on this but...
    3) Throw escape. Oh my god how many opponenet's throwing move i need to remember? TTT throw system is the only thing i feel fair and perfect.

    Ok, all above r just my own opinion. Take it easy...
  12. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    My views...
    Tekken 4
    Low punches and crouching help handle the jab priorities, same with range spacing. I feel the jab priority is annoying in that it's that much greater than everything else, but I don't find it a problem anymore... Well placed ones are well placed ones and I have respect for those.

    Back dash exists, and I think it's just fine. Just not as good as TTT, but when someone starts getting pressured by all the jabs and low jabs, they tend to defend a bit giving you opportunity to setup stuff by retreating out of the aggressive flow. This is just a very basic example... I'm sure there are much better ones.

    Wall system is abusable, I'll admit that.

    Tekken has always had overpowered characters, I almost thought it was a responsibility to accept that as a Tekken player.

    Naturally, as a player who plays a lot of VF, I'll defend the Guard button.
    1) You should be defending when you intend to defend. Not necessarily when you're just panicking and trying to run away. In fact, I believe the Guard button forces any serious VF player to become aware of when to defend and when to attack and that's a good thing imo.
    2) It's additional functions are a god-send imo.
    3) With the marginally faster dodge system that's implemented in Tekken 4, the issue you were talking about using db and df to crouch instead of just down could have worked with that system via a Guard button. VF4 uses a tap down and tap up dodging and movement system, but you hardly hear people complain about it because of the Guard button and what not.

    To me... the VF4 throw system is an advanced system that advances the requirement of the player to predict. I personally think TTT's throw escape system isn't anything to brag about, but maybe it's just me. You have fast reflexes, you can see which throw escape to use, that's nice. At least it rewards reflexes -or- accidental/coincidental situations.
    In VF4, your experience and understanding of your opponent gives you a good idea of what they are bound to use. Some opponents only know a few throws and you abuse this knowledge. Some opponents love the f,f+P+G thing out of "dash in throw" reasons (these are usually beginners) so you abuse this knowledge. Some opponents know what they are doing and you figure they go for safe throw escape situations. Some go for damage. Again, you use this knowledge. In addition, my opinion is that the best way to handle throws are to prevent the situations and use your risky throw-counterable attacks when the situation is given to you instead of just on a guess. In addition, throws that aren't handled via throw-counter are easy to prevent in VF4 anyways.

    I mentioned the throw escape system first to move into Option Select which you complained about. If you ask me, the Option Select moves the throw escape game closer to TTT's system so I wouldn't complain about it right before praising TTT's throw escape system. If anything, the Option Select increases the throw escape probability to become that of Tekken's throw escape system.

    In addition, Option Select sacrifices more assertive options under certain circumstances. It also has a tendency to put more practice time on the Intermediate Player which I think is a good thing anyways. Not to mention that it's best to know when and where to apply it, some people use it in the weirdest of places.

    Anyways, just my thoughts and I figure it would be nice to have this sort of discussion/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

  13. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Naturally, as a player who plays a lot of VF, I'll defend the Guard button.
    1) You should be defending when you intend to defend. Not necessarily when you're just panicking and trying to run away. In fact, I believe the Guard button forces any serious VF player to become aware of when to defend and when to attack and that's a good thing imo.

    ... and when to run away or dodge...

    Yeah, I believe AM2 is thinking the same way... with the addition of Jacky's and Van's punch inashi, they want the player to be consciouse and specific of what they are doing.
  14. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    EDK: Am I reading this right? Are you saying it's a bad thing for people with more skill and timing to have the advantage? I don't know any game where timing and skill isn't important. Little things like timing seperate the good from the great and a smart player with good reflexes will always be a force to be reckoned with.
  15. blurp

    blurp Member

    imho vf4 feels a lot more technical. it feels like calculus, while tekken feels like math. everything in vf also seems to happen at a faster speed. the better player is always the one that thinks a couple steps ahead of the opponent. same could be said of tekken to an extent, although i feel that in vf less is left to luck than in tekken. both games are great in my opinion.
  16. gaishou

    gaishou Well-Known Member

    i'm with chanchai on this one. hit the nail right on the head. i couldn't have said it better.....
  17. King_Ruckus

    King_Ruckus Member

    Hey Everyone,

    I'm a new member. I'm also a member of Tekken Zaibatsu(more on that later). I've been playing Tekken games for years.
    I was never really much of a Virtua Fighter fan. I played Virtua Fighter sparingly, Virtua Fighter 2 a bit more, and Virtua Fighter 3 exactly one time. All in the arcades over the years.
    My first experience playing Virtua Fighter 4 in the arcades wasn't exactly a good one. This was mainly because I had no idea what the hell I was doing:). I just F,F+P my way through with Akira, got bored, and labeled the game a "Button Masher".
    I ended up giving the game a second chance about a week later. The Tekken 4 machine was messed up(2P stick was stuck), and I couldn't challenge anyone. I played VF4 again, with the same character, the same way, and came to the same conclusion.
    Finally when the home version came out, a friend of mine who's a really big VF fan picked it up. I played it at his house, and after about 10 minutes in training mode I was hooked. The game is really in-depth. Anyone who goes through Trial training mode ONCE knows this, or just flat out REFUSES to acknowledge an in-depth fighting system, I'm sorry. The game is only a "button masher" if you play it that way.

    But you all know that, that's why you're here:).

    I'm seeing quite a few threads at TZ about VF4. Sadly, people who don't like VF4 make silly claims like....."It's a button masher!", "It's jumps are 'floaty'! ", and "There are no endings!". They either gave it a brief, half assed chance like I did at the arcade, or simply WON'T play it because it's not Tekken. I used to be a "button masher" complainer myself. I mean, I never put it on the same boat as the DOA series (which has always let you counter with ease for a large chunk of power, doesn't seem to have much depth outside of it's gorgeous graphics, and whose most recent game, DOA3, is not worth buying an XBOX for, in my opinion), but I never really gave it a chance because whenever I played VF games, I would only mash my way through and simply DID NOT KNOW any better.
    If you look at T4 and VF4 side by side, T4 is broken, VF4 is not AS broken(so far Sarah and Jacky seem a little overpowering, but their less than stellar recovery time on their more damaging moves makes up for it.), if not broken at all. As much as I love Tekken, I have to admit the truth. There have just been too many people complaining about certain little things in T4 that should never had been there in the first place, myself included.
    Namco addressed some of these concerns in later versions(Steve's mid hitting F+1 being one of those concerns), but seemingly missed or ignored others. The game was obviously rushed out. They wanted to emphasize "movement", but cut down on backdashing and sidestepping:/. They gave jabs insane priority, which wouldn't be so bad if you could avoid them just a little easier(by.....backdashing and/or sidestepping?). Ducking them at close range isn't impossible, but it's a bit more difficult now that you can't crouch with D, only D/B or D/F. If your playing at an arcade with screwed up sticks, this becomes a problem. Your opponent gets free jabs, which isn't fun.
    Most of the "fanboys" at TZ know these things, but still crap on VF4 without giving it a fair chance.
    To make a long post SHORTER, let me just say that I'm not jumping ship from Tekken to VF, but I DO have much more respect for the VF series now, and I'll definitely keep playing VF4 at home even after Tekken 4 hits the PS2 later this year in the US.
  18. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    Talking of button mashing; does anyone look at gamespot's forums??
    If you do - yeah that's me, tirelessly ripping people for calling any game a masher...they're idiots, there's no more to it. Sometimes it gets really tedious, like when seperate people come along every 2 days or so but I soldier on...(sense of duty, lol)
  19. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    Guard button = good
    Throw breaking (in any game) = bad
  20. plan17

    plan17 Active Member

    if we're gonna be comparing them... which i won't be cause i don't have any clue how T4 plays... it just doesn't look as interesting as VF... check out this mammoth piece from TZ

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<or awhile now, I've noticed quite a few people around downplaying Tekken 4 with a few complaints. "It's masher friendly; It takes no skill; doesn't have as much depth as VF4". I've one very serious question, without bias. How many players with these complaints have played Tekken 4 as extensively as VF4. I for one, have as I have both games for PS2 as well as have studied both of the series incarnations in the arcade for all sequels.
    Granted, both games have been on the "equal" standpoint for awhile, VF was always famous for being more of a sim while Tekken was always famous for being more action based. However, recently examined BOTH games extensively and have drawn out all of the aspects that each game possesses. Be it combo concepts, character appeal, story, variation of gameplay style etc. And in this yearly (and I mean YEARLY) long analysis I've come to realize something. Let me explain.

    Virtua Fighter for one thing (let's be honest people) has always been extremely masher friendly. The reason for this is that VF has always relied on combos for their characters gameplay (most of them, not all...don't jump to conclusions and let me finish). This is caused by its control setup; punch, kick, guard. To compensate for its simple button mapping, all types of punches and kicks derive from this scheme when pressed more than once. The flip side to this is that when more moves are required, more complicated button pressed are needed (i.e. b+G+K, K, dwn+K to perform Lei Fei double flicker round house then sweep manuever). Since the more the moves the chara possesses, the more variations of combinations of the three button taps are required, hence why most people believe VF possesses a "Large array a moves", which if studied carefully is relatively untrue. In fact, both games have the exact same amount of moves when compared. If you need proof, go to your Japanese bookstore and pick up a VF fighting guide and a Tekken fighting guide then compare the two. You'll find yourself very surprised as I was. VF's strength is in combo variations, not movement abundance.
    Now, while VF has refined it's gameplay over the years with more complicated attacks and introduced full on reversals and chain grabs into the arsenal, but still has always relied on combo strings for their charas (even the wrestlers possess combo strings though they are primarily grapplers, not strikers). Again, this causes the game to remain very masher friendly. Now while any hardcore fighting gamer will be able to mop the floor with a masher, this still does not deny the fact that the game's weakness. Also, VF4's major flaws still are lack of TRUE 3D gameplay. The circular movements within the stages are practically useless unless the particular attack that the chara is performing happens to be a sidestepping one. It's still very linear in nature (watch two experts of VF play. The only time that the SS is used is when the two are circling one another before their fighting advancement). Again, VF's strengths lie in combo string variation and speed. Another weakness that the game has always had (this plays into a broader audience) is lack of character appeal. VF is popular with having very dull characters (Lei Fei and Vanessa Lewis have just recently become the ONLY exceptions), lack of any real relevant story and varied options for home conversions. However, the A.I. mode for the home version is a really strong additive, but if most players don't engage in this particular title, in the end it proves fruitless. Its one biggest strength did lie in VF3's environments. While not interactive, they were a strong additive of strategy through placement, distance, timing and positioning. Now that they've reverted back to VF2's formula, it's become basic and unfortunately very very plain.

    Now, on the opposite side lies Tekken. The biggest misconception that I've seen with this title has been that it was masher friendly....which as a whole is entirely untrue. There have been only 3 characters in the game's history that have been even remotely masher friendly: Marshal Law (tekken 2 ver.), Baek Doosan and Eddy Gordo (and entry level character). These few have been the only ones that have been even close to being masher friendly, and like Virtua Fighter (if an expert is playing, again, will mop the floor with them), I've studied it just as closely.
    Tekken's biggest draws have been a few things: Appealing characters, character variations, large variety of fighting concepts (i.e. Lei vs. Paul, Xiaoyu vs. Nina), depth of story (especially with part 4) and excellent home conversions. Character stances are completely varied and only 2-3 are similar to one another (Lei to Law, Jin to Christie etc.).
    The gameplay concepts lie in several things: fluid taps (look in the fighting guide. This difference between RP, LP vs. RP~LP. Based on speed of execution rather than preset chaining), Negative Edge Buffering (VF contains buffering as well, but it relies more on the delay of movement rather than blending of two separate actions. Take for instace how to jump in VF4 as an example), delay of attacks (not based on preset commands like Lau, Pai and Jacky's P,P, Dwn+K+G), using Nuetral before attacking (most of Lei Wulong's movements require this) and playing classic fighting game tactics like "poking" (remember Street Fighter tactics to recap). Now, with Tekken 4, the characters have become even more varied, the gameplay has been tightened to become faster than part 3's and true environment interaction that requires heavy amounts of strategy per player and per character (Xiaoyu and Lei are strong in open areas yet weak in conjested environments) and the element of being trapped in the corner has returned (compelmented by off-wall jumping and position shifting).
    However, just like its competition, Tekken has its share of flaws as well. For one thing, certain charas are just plain stupid (Roger/Alex, Gon, Boskonovitch and all of the Jacks), the arcade version of Tekken Tag's existance (man, did that ver. suck!!) and poor collision detection (although VF4 has also revealed poor collision on many instances as well).
    Since Tekken contains 4 buttons and reverse as guard, it's movements are better spread out enabling more ease of movement and more importantly, heavy reflex value (again, take Lei Fei double round-house to Lee Chaolan's. Same move, but one is easier because of a different sense of execution). So, as a result, Tekken has the advantage of being able to openly express its attacks across a wider sprectrum rather than being compressed to one button (compare all of Lau's punches done with both Kick and Guard and all of Jin's punches done with Left Punch and/or Right Punch). Also, with this, Tekken seems to lie more in the logical sense rather than waiting for another attack to arrive from a preset chain (P,P= left then right punch vs. LP, RP= Left punch, right punch~ both are the classic one two of fighting).

    The truth is, while both games have been on equal terms for quite awhile with opposite expressions, VF4 via Yu Suzuki's request has become more linear and easy to play (c'mon, what's with Vanessa and Jacky's auto parry for punches)to appeal to the masses, involved two new characters for better appeal (the Shaolin Monk was an ingenius idea, Yu!!) and reverted back to the simplified VF2 formula, while Tekken on the other hand has now involved environmental fighting (y'know, the kind where you feel exactly where your fighting through close quarters, obstacles/obstructions and change of ground mass [moving slower in water than on gravel], something DOA2&3 failed at miserably), a more serious no-nonsense attitude toward its characters (bye Jack, Roger), a strong and relevant storyline throughout *finally in a fighting game* and heavily varied gameplay (no two charas EVER control in exactly the same manner within Tekken 1,2,3 & 4, VF's number 1 weakness). And this doesn't even involve home conversions (need we got there?).

    In the end, out of both only one has evolved truly, without bias or illogical fanbase (truthfully, you guys only hate just to hate and cannot break down real elements without bias).....Tekken 4. If you want proof, attempt to play Tekken 4 exactly like its past incarnations in the arcade against a hardcore player. I guarantee you'll lose quickly through lack of evolution. VF4 doesn't have this advantage...... anyone can play Lau in part 4 just like part 2....and so can Sarah, Jacky, Akira, Pai, Wolf and Jeffry)>>>>>>>

    from Hou- something... sorry...

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