Test your VF knowledge ;)

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by GLC, Apr 18, 2001.

  1. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    Due to lack of valid things to post, I may as well post this... I wonder how many of you experts will get this one correct ;)

    WHAT'S THE FASTEST EXECUTING MOVE IN VF3TB? If there are a few with same execution, list them all.

    The question isn't hard at all but I'm sure someone will screw it up :> Oh, and Rich, stay out of this please!
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Jeffry and Wolf's Take-Off Kick as a single attack from ground at 4 frames?

    Sarah's hop-punch as a single attack at 3 frames?

    Kage's Shinsodan as a continuation of a move at 1 frame?

    P+G Throw for all characters? (I don't know the technical frames of execution for this one, I assumed it was near instant)

    -Chanchai

    P.S. Most likely I screwed it up. And GLC, keep on quizzing!
    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 04/18/01 04:42 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  3. Electro_Jacky

    Electro_Jacky Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    electrolex
    XBL:
    electro lex
    erm, off top of my head is it Shuns throw when he's got his back turned towards you and does that butt push then backfist?

    THAT'S.......IT.......NOW!!!
     
  4. L0w_RyDer

    L0w_RyDer Member

    My guess would be just a normal punch from Kage, Aoi, and Sarah. Just a guess.
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Err -- what happened to Jason's post? He wrote exactly what I was thinking.
     
  6. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    He was thinking wrong. Let's not complicate things without a valid reason... execution is the time until ANY collision detection (damage or no damage) takes place, which is 1 frame for all non-catch throws :p

    I told Chanchai the full answer on irc, I'll let him post it.
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    The Question:
    WHAT'S THE FASTEST EXECUTING MOVE IN VF3TB? If there are a few with same execution, list them all.

    And the answer to this quiz, as it was given to me on IRC is....

    ~drumroll............~

    1/ All non-catch throws, including link throws.
    2/ Some of 3 of Aoi's & 4 of Pai's reversals, Kage's punch reversal.
    3/ Kage's shinsodan.


    I'm hoping for quiz #2/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    -Chanchai
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Take Kage's shinshodan for instance. It's technically 1 frame to execute but for all practical purposes it should be considered a slow attack, considering that rolling is a prerequisite.

    In a game situation, from button input to execution, the 8-frame P is the fastest move, even faster than the catch throw (I don't count normal or multi-link throws in any of this). What does this mean? If you block a move and you want the quickest way to retaliate, the 8-frame punch is your best bet assuming the opponent doesn't freeze/recover in a crouching position from the blocked attack.
     
  9. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Well, this being GLC's quiz, he set the definition he uses for "execution" in a later followup post. I'm not saying you overlooked that, Jeff, but it should be pointed out (for readers to understand more and not overlook it; also acknowledged that you were making a seperate point, not a disagreement to GLC).

    However, with all those in consideration, and moving on to your take on execution, what about (as I listed above) Wolf and Jeffry's Take-Off Kick? Wouldn't those "execute" faster from a block than even the 8-frame single Punches? Naturally it has a huge recovery time, but that would not be our concern if we're just looking at execution (off a block in this case).

    -Chanchai
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    You're absolutely right--I was making a separate point to GLC's post, not exactly refuting it although I disagree with his assessment of Jason's post (i.e. that it's wrong). My post is to provide an alternative light to those beginners who may not know better and who may have mistakenly thought that the shinshodan or the throw are the quickest counter-attacks in the game.

    Now Chanchai, as for your post, remember that conversation about looking too deeply into stats? Your post is a brilliant example of that.

    Now ask yourself this: if Wolf and Jeffry's takeoff kick is really "faster" than the 8 frame punch, why don't you see everyone doing it? Why don't you see Wolf and Jeffry FAQs recommending the kick as a brilliant and necessary move? Is the entire VF world missing out on something that you've discovered?!?

    Then ask yourself this next question: When you're playing the game and you block an opponent's move where the opponent should be counterable with a P, why doesn't the takeoff kick instead connect? Why isn't it guaranteed? Why...doesn't it work? It's 4 frames is it not?

    Finally, a thought that I forgot to mention but is helpful in shedding perspective on the thread are the throws. It's executable in 1 frame right? So does that mean that if you have at least a +1 frame advantage you are guaranteed a throw opportunity? Ha, you will find this is not the case. (Otherwise you'll see me picking all Wolfs at MOAT).

    Believe me, I like stats. I pored over the mooks while I was learning the game. I am now dispensing advice that I learned the long way: use your common sense, don't take stats too literally. True, if you know all the numerical parameters that programmers used in making the game, you can calculate anything and everything. Unfortunately, we only have snippets of those parameters and thus often cannot make concrete conclusions about anything unless you test it out for yourself.

    I recognize that this is GLC's quiz but correct me if I'm wrong but the purpose of this discussion is to disseminate information. I believe that is what I'm doing.
     
  11. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    A throw IS guaranteed when you have at least +1 frame of advantage... BUT there are other stats such as range, block stun, hit stun, opponent stumbling, opponent staggered, etc.

    As for take-off kicks, they DO have those tiny execution times but like previously, you have to count other factors in - eg. when you choose to counter with P-x, the reward is pretty much the same as for d,U|UF+K while the risk is minimal. When you're so far ahead that the P is guaranteed, you RARELY miss. While in case of take-off kicks, your opponent is guaranteed an opportunity of doing whatever he wishes to, as missed/blocked take-off kick means death (even if you count 2nd K in).
     
  12. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I'm not trying to "read too deep" into the stats, Ice. I'm just interested in if that works. You could naturally just tell me that it doesn't work that way because other factors come into play, and that those other factors don't make those numbers cut and dry. I understand that.

    I'm just curious about it. But it sounded alright to me. I'm not trying to take offense, but you are constantly telling me I'm looking too deep into the stats. I'm just curious if things work that way or not, I'm not trying to preach about the stats. I mean, I hardly use Take-off kick off of a block and probably because I have an instinct that tells me there's something wrong with doing it.

    Probably because if I even wanted to do it, I'd rather do it as a counter, which seems to give room for interesting combos in some situations, if successful (Lau for instance, but the risk is so high that I don't do it that much unless I'm certain).

    Ice, I don't have the experience of VF that you do. I'm merely a beginner, and I'm merely experimenting. The stats I look at are interesting to me right now, but I know there are other factors. However, I'm just trying to learn the game more, and I am definitely not trying to say stats are god or anything. I point something that "theoretically" (on a shallow basis) sounds like it would hold. In that aspect, I hope for a response that affirms or denies, but if it denies, I would like to know why. As opposed to being denied and labeled as reading too deeply into the stats. Does this make sense to you?

    So please, as you suggest that I don't read too deeply into the stats, please don't read too deeply into my queiries. I'm trying to learn, I'm NOT trying to preach. I AM only an inexperienced beginner, alright?

    -Chanchai

    p.s. Keep in mind that I acknowledged that your post was not a refutation to GLC's post. That there was no mocking or personal vendetta behind them. Please share a similar courtesy by understanding that I simply posed some questions, added some statements as support for those, but I was not condescending or being a know-it-all. A query it was, and that only. But, as they were queries, that should imply they are not conclusions. Those should be good enough signs to say that I was not that certain in them, that I was open for them being wrong, and that I was curious. Trust me, if I wanted to mock anything or sounded like I knew it all, I probably would have put a lot more in there, and I would have made something VERY direct.
    In the end, I will read too deeply if you start saying something like, "You are reading too deeply into the stats." I will take it as condescending. I will take it as you are telling me to NOT BOTHER, PERIOD with stats. I will take it similarly as Rich expressed in an earlier post.
    Perhaps it is a cultural difference, but I don't believe that I was concluding too deeply in the stats. I have my own questions when I read them, and I bring them up for a response. I assume you, Shota, and anyone else who has looked up to the information at some point has done similarly.
    I think that if my post really was a brilliant example of reading too deeply into the numbers, I would be citing stats to prove things and make bold statements. I'm merely citing stats out of curiousity, I'm questioning some aspects.
    As far as reading into stats, I'm reading into them as THEY IMPLY THEY ARE TO BE READ! No stats are really perfect, but at least I AM TRYING to learn further into this game.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 04/22/01 06:08 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  13. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Chanchai, I don't think my statement that you are reading too deeply into stats is incorrect. Based on stats, you concluded that Akira's DE is an "alright" move and that the takeoff kick is a better counter than a P. These are obviously wrong (or highly misleading) conclusions. Note I've only said brought this up twice...I do not "constantly" tell you that you are reading too deeply into stats.

    If you find that condescending...*shrug* You're trying to tell me something I find insane and I'm telling you to use your common sense. Condescension or good advice (or as jtx would say merely a truism?), that's up to you to decide.

    GLC, that is exactly the kind of response that I was hoping that someone like Chanchai would make, because it demonstrates some critical thinking involved in analyzing numbers.

    However, out of curiousity, is there any attack leaving you at +1 advantage when blocked that guarantees you a throw opportunity? I haven't thought about this much yet, but my initial feeling is no, there is no such attack, leaving the 1-frame throw execution stat not very useful at all. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I'm interested in knowing the answer to my little quizlet.
     
  14. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Based on stats, you concluded that Akira's DE is an "alright" move and that the takeoff kick is a better counter than a P.

    <hr></blockquote>

    First of all, I was actually saying the DE is a pretty good move. But how you use it, obviously, depends on who you are using it against. A lot of us beginners fall into a trap of doing DE over and over again, even after normal hits. So what happens if we do that to someone such as yourself? What happens if we hit DE against your Kage and you respond with a P and we're trying to either go for a P or another DE? For the most part, I was trying to point that aspect out. DE is a wonderful move, but I was pointing out that some people can abuse us scrubs for using it so much as we stereotypically do. I must've mentioned that who you are using the DE against alters its effectiveness twice in that one single post.

    Furthermore, I DID NOT SAY THAT TAKEOFF KICK WAS A BETER ALTERNATIVE TO COUNTERING WITH P!!!! Read the damn statement again! I ASKED if they would execute faster off of a block than an 8-frame punch!!!! For crying out loud, where did I say it was better?! I'm certainly reading something into the stats, but I'm not making a strong conclusion, I'm just testing what I "can" conclude. I don't think that's reading too deep.

    What I think is reading too deep is when you think when I ASK about FASTER, you respond by saying that I STATED (which is not asking) something is BETTER.

    Here's a part of my original post on the DE:
    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    In concluding the stuff on Akira's ff+P Dashing Elbow, I find it to be an alright move, but it doesn't really benefit you against players that know how to handle it. If it's close enough and hits, it knocks down. If it's not that close and even if it hits, Akira is at a disadvantage (it'll practically be his turn to defend) unless it counter hits, in which the benefit is very small, but at least Akira does have the advantage. Now you gotta figure out your chances of counter-hitting your opponent

    As far as I know, Akira's DE is a good move, one of his standard moves. But it has to be used properly against knowledgeable or seasoned opponents. And that is probably hard. There's your non-expert response.

    <hr></blockquote>

    My bad for saying, "the stuff" when I should have said, "based solely on stats." Which does not mean I base everything on stats! I said alright, but I didn't mean mediocre. It's a fine move. I was trying to at least give food for thought to some people that THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THE MOVE. Not universally, but in the sense that they'll know an opportunity when they have it. And they might abuse that, so is it wrong for people to know this? And then, in the next paragraph I stated that it's a good move, a standard move. But against knowledgeable or seasoned opponents, you should be more careful about it. Sorry if my post was not that clear to you.

    Jeff, I'm sorry I ddi not make it clear to you earlier. You were talking about the punch being a very good response, if not among the best, after a block. I responded with a question about speed, not about overall effectiveness. Does that make sense? So I'm sorry I did not put up a roadsign telling you that I was not asking if take-off kick was better. But you should be able to read faster and not see the word better when that's all that is in that sentence.

    My warning earlier, I'll reclarify that... You saying "you are reading too deeply into things," might simply be just that, but it does invoke an emotional response out of me because it annoys me. ALL YOU HAVE TO TELL ME IS THAT "NOPE, BECAUSE OTHER FACTORS ARE NOT ACCOUNTED FOR, THAT CONCLUSION IS WRONG." But instead, I get a statement that sounds more personally directed at me like I've committed some sin for trying to understand whatever information is available to me. Again, that might not be what is meant, but that's how I'll take it when you add impact to a statement. And then, you add in the last response that you were hoping for "a person like Chanchai" to make a certain kind of response. Couldn't you just spare the direct allusion and just have mentioned it in the first place instead of waiting?

    Jeff, I am only annoyed here (which is a situational emotion, not a judgement one). Try to understand where I'm coming from, and try to read what you were responding to at least twice. A mistake like faster-->better is something I can attack you back with in an argument. It's accessable to anyone and they can see that. I'm not perfect, but I think there are better approaches to responding to my curiousity.

    -Chanchai
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Oh my goodness, you take my post too literally. I think it's pretty clear when I wrote that when you thought the takeoff kick was a "better" counter than a punch I meant that you thought it was a "faster" counter. I mean, DUH, your point was that the takeoff kick is a faster counter than the 8-frame P since the 4-frame execution time is 4-frames less. I didn't get that confused. I don't think anyone did.

    However, your 800-word response doesn't hide the fact that your conclusion is...well, it's pretty out-of-whack (I could've used stronger adjectives there but won't out of consideration of your vulnerable and sensitive state of emotions).

    I think the tone of my response accurately reflects my incredulity with your out-of-whack notion that the takeoff kick is a FASTER counter than the 8-frame P (happy now?). I'm sorry, it just blows my mind. Heh heh, takeoff kick. So I find it funny, sue me. So I can be cruel, that's nothing new.
     
  16. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    WTF?! Ice, gimme a break. You can give me a well supported response instead of just mockery you know?

    Ah, well... I give up, like others I would assume... debate club or not, you haven't proven to me that you know how to argue at all. I've seen you do this before and it ain't pretty, in fact, it ruins your stance on an argument...

    You still haven't given me much clarification on your points. GLC at least did. I haven't concluded much at all to be honest. I've expressed what I've thought or considered, but it's far from being beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Anyways, like I've said, there are far better ways you can respond to things. Much more constructive ways at the very least.

    -Chanchai
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry Chanchai, but you haven't proven to me that you're even worth arguing with. You've already stated numerous times what a beginner you are right? When it comes to the mechanics of VF3 it would be more like me telling you what's right and what's wrong now wouldn't it? (Or someone else telling you what to tell me).

    As for *why* the takeoff kick isn't as fast as a P in game situation...I actually didn't write anything about it because I wanted to give you a chance to think about it. Obviously that didn't happen.

    As for GLC's analysis comparing P to takeoff kick...I don't agree with it very much but when it comes to gameplay it's a matter of style so there's nothing worth talking about there.

    As for my debating style...I think my method is too subtle for you. I have proven conclusively how looking at what numbers are available alone do not always translate accurately in real life. I have shown that despite the shinshodan or the takeoff kick being "faster" in execution than the 8-frame punch the punch is the faster counterattack in game situations. And if GLC can't think of an example where a blocked attack with -1 frame disadvantage guarantees a throw then I have also shown that the 1-frame throw execution statistic is basically worthless in real life (though interesting nonetheless).

    I have dispensed what I think is good advice to you for you not to take stats too literally; you argue that you are not responsible for such a thing. I then imply that to conclude a takeoff kick is faster than an 8-frame punch in counter situations from stats is either a) guilty of taking stats too literally or b) just plain "out of whack" (i.e. stupid).

    Is that clear enough?
     
  18. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    For attack advantages, check the appropriate docs/resources, do them all, compare ranges and see for yourself :p I won't bother arguing with you like Chanchai, I know my thing, obviously you know yours, so be it.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Heh heh, takeoff kick. So I find it funny, sue me. So I can be cruel, that's nothing new."

    - Last time I checked, cruelty wasn't something to be proud of. Fuck Rich, it should be Jeff the Bitch.
     
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't "Jeff the Cruel" be more accurate then?
     

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