Thanks to the Great El Bungle

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by kbcat, Nov 6, 2000.

  1. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    Thanks to Monsieur Bungle for coming up to TO this past
    weekend. It was a lot of fun, and good to see you again.

    I've also got to say, that the forum has been a riot to
    read lately! Keep up the good work everyone!

    For the record -- I love VF2 as well, it's a fantasic game
    with a much faster pace than VF3. I miss my 'Up Knife' rush
    and the wonderful RBC-SDE-SJK combo -- and how can I forget
    senbons!

    I hope VFx still has that definite VF feel that all the
    other games in the series have. I'll be sorely disappointed
    if it didn't. That being said I don't think it would hurt
    to have some easter eggs and cinematics (intros/endings) in
    the game either.


    cheers!
    kbcat
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Great... I knew that gut-feeling of mine was right that I should have gone to TO this weekend...

    Ah well... school, school, school (though this was one of those weekends where it wouldn't have had real consequence at all, my activities this past weekend proves that too/images/icons/tongue.gif).

    Speaking of which, I did spend time with VF2 in the arcades over the weekend. It is nice playing that game again, but I never developed a true handle on the controls. However, I would have spent the whole night on it, but it seems that all VF2 machines in Portland and the Corvallis area are cursed with joysticks I can't stand... small and odd diagonals, stick is one of those slender cone shapes that are too long (compared to what I'm used to in US style sticks, I'm sure that those that know their sticks know what I'm talking about)... Ahh well, almost felt like taking a shot at buying the machine, but nowhere to put it (and I have extra Happ sticks laying around my apartment to go around that joystick issue).

    I definitely hope that VFX keeps that classic VF feel. I guess as a topic starter, what is it that defines that feel? Is it the precise timing (as a requirement) of the controls (though not in the way of Tekken)? Is it the directly face-to-face line of combat (2d aspect)? Would an 8-way run system throw it off? Well, anything's possible, depends on how they implement it... Still just gonna hold off the expectations until I hear more about it.

    -Chanchai
     
  3. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    The VF feel

    This is by no means comprehensive--but, somethings that I
    think contribute to the VF feel:

    - slighter larger characters than most others fighters.
    i.e. a closer camera. Look at TTT and then look at VF3.
    - *no* hit sparks, or any crap like that.
    - a distinct rythym to the combat with slight pauses
    between moves. If you do a big move like a Bodycheck,
    or if you complete a combo there is a short but noticable
    pause. A window of opportunity. This is something that I
    find lacking in other fighters like TTT or DOA2 (esp.
    DOA2 -- DOA2 is reverse or die IMO). What I mean is there
    is a definite risk involved with doing high damage moves,
    be it slow execution or slow recovery.
    - A good float system. VF2's was the best, VF1's the worst,
    there were plenty of floats even in VF1.

    I'm sure there are other points... I'll keep thinking about
    it. As for VF2 all NA machines had crappy sticks at odd
    angles :p


    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: The VF feel

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    - a distinct rythym to the combat with slight pauses
    between moves. If you do a big move like a Bodycheck,
    or if you complete a combo there is a short but noticable
    pause. A window of opportunity. This is something that I
    find lacking in other fighters like TTT or DOA2 (esp.
    DOA2 -- DOA2 is reverse or die IMO). What I mean is there
    is a definite risk involved with doing high damage moves,
    be it slow execution or slow recovery.

    <hr></blockquote>


    Yep, this is in fact one of the key thing (if not THE KEY THING) that I love about VF. For the most part, to me, it makes defense a key factor in VF without killing the offense. I guess this is the thing Hiro is big on, always talking about "How VF is made." Drilled it into my head, in person and online.

    Actually, in a post I did a few days ago (maybe less than a few) I mentioned this so to speak. Or at least VF having a balanced offense and defense. Like you said DoA2 has overwhelming reversals. IMO, that's an extremely overpowering defense option (not to mention the humongous window of time you have), something I personally don't like that much about it, but it's not invincible. However, I think you forgot to mention Soul Calibur. If it's a game that completely goes against the "VF Flow" it's soul calibur... I also mentioned in that earlier post about "so many moves that are not counterable," hence a constant flow of offense whether the opponent is blocking or not. This works in a lot of 2d fighters because they push the offender back over time. However, in SC, the opponent is still drilling attacks into you, going forward and without the counterability factor, it's very hard... Anyways, you can read back on that post if you're concerned about my views on that.

    Another thing I love about the VF Flow is that it's sort of an exclamation point littering the match. It makes the fights extremely clear what is being done (with the exception of some visually fancy looking moves). It is probably this that gives VF a very technical feel as well as a visual way to connect the dots without things feeling or looking random.

    Oh yeah, there's one thing that does annoy me that I hear non-VF players ALWAYS saying about VF. Whenever they see a pounce, ground hit, or OTB hits/combos, they practically cry out "bloody cheap!" At first it was okay, I tried to explain it to them... Juggle combos are better, etc... you can't keep ground hitting (if anything, Tekken should be looked down upon on its ground game), etc... After awhile, it just got annoying... People see a fallen person get hit while on the ground, they treat it like a bug. People see an infinite combo/aerial rave, an insane juggle combo, a stupid KI "I do 3 sequences and I get a 60 hit combo," life chippers (aka, beams in Marvel games) and they don't say anything negative (and I understand that, but I find those to be worse than the ground system of VF, besides, it's tekken's ground system to be worried about more than anything, if to be worried about the ground game, well, Lion glitch in ver. A is an exception).

    Gotta love big characters. I wonder if anyone complained about the speed blurs in VF3. I really wish VFX could be more of the same, but I'm assuming it's going to be radically different. Who knows though, we'll have to wait for it to be in arcades or something.
     
  5. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Re: The VF feel

    Though I hope to hell sega goes for motion capture animation to get ride of that awfull animation vf has been plagued with...easily done to motion capture and then overlay it with key framing for the frames.
     
  6. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    Re: The VF feel

    I'm 90% sure vf has always used motion capture
    since vf1.


    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
     
  7. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    Re: The VF feel

    shadowdean: what awful vf animation? vf has always had excellent animation, hasn't it? or did you mean some specificly jerky moments (e.g. winning poses)?
    i think vf used motion capture for the winning poses, but i don't know about the actual fighting.....
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    animation feel

    for the winning poses, its obviously mocap.
    but for the actual fighting i think up to vf2 (maybe 3 but i didnt follow 3 that much) it was using some kind of manequine (sp?) system. thats what i picked up somewhere. i could be wrong, but if so, i have no clue how this thought got into my head (no other game uses manaquines). its been so long. hmmm.... or maybe it was FV. but didnt FV use same technology and techniques as VF. anyway....

    this system is more acurate since they can control it better. they can get clear starts and stops. and it keeps the feel of VF, which i really like, which is very well described by another poster:

    "- a distinct rythym to the combat with slight pauses between moves. If you do a big move like a Bodycheck, or if you complete a combo there is a short but noticable pause. A window of opportunity. This is something that I find lacking in other fighters like TTT or DOA2 (esp. DOA2 -- DOA2 is reverse or die IMO). What I mean is there is a definite risk involved with doing high damage moves, be it slow execution or slow recovery."

    the other games that used mocap never had this feel, so i think it (the manaquine) has something to do with this technique.

    blah
     
  9. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: The VF feel

    I have to agree - the ebb and flow of the fight, the constant shuffle of initiative, is just one important factor that makes Virtua Fighter the game as we know it. All fighting games have a flow, where characters switch between defense and offense, but I think it feels more natural in VF than in any other game. It's also the delicate balance of risk and reward that VF handles relatively well, especially when compared to other fighters. If your big move is blocked in VF, you lose initiative. To me, that's a pretty simple yet intuitive/natural concept.

    Already mentioned were Tekken, and Soul Calibur. These games have an overwhelming number of uncounterable attacks which are also big moves (floaters, etc). It's no suprise to see them being abused to no end. Thus, the fight for initiative in these games is totally different. A common cry I've made, as well as others when they started out in Tekken, was complete shock at blocking a big move, not being able to counter attack, and instead get MC'd in the process. Not fun, and doesn't feel "natural" (for want of a better word). Okizeme is another area where it's just a different fight again, but I won't go into that any further. Once you learn and begin to master these meta-games, you may find that you'll enjoy playing the game a whole lot more. For me, I wasn't enjoying myself while making "progress" in Tekken.

    That's just my early-morning-at-work-pre-coffee take on the "feel" of VF. There's a whole lot more to say, but I'm having trouble putting it into words right now.

    Oh, and if I hear one more person complain that reversals are too damaging in DoA2 then I'm gonna hurt someone! :) Given that there are four reversal levels, and the wrong reversal means you get hi countered, then I think the damage you receive for being predictable is acceptable. That is, the risk/reward factor is fairly balanced. DoA2 is generally played at a fast pace, again the initiative and oki games are different, and you should be prepared to accept the high damage nature of the game.

    I wonder if anyone complained about the speed blurs in VF3.

    I remember when first hearing about this from Jirawat, and I thought, yuck. I had this image of all these trailing shadows during an attack, something like a super in the SF games, and I really thought it had no place whatsover in VF. But then I saw the real thing. Actually, I wasn't even noticing it at first so in the end the implementation was done quite well - very subtle.

    __
    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
     
  10. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    DOA2

    "Oh, and if I hear one more person complain that reversals are too damaging in DoA2 then I'm gonna hurt someone!"

    Yes! Can I help you hurt whoever says the next stupid thing about DOA2's reversal system. :)

    People just don't realize that getting thrown while reversing leads to high counter damage(+50%). Against a good opponent that means you will lose about half of your bar or more.

    -Emil
    DOA2!!!
     
  11. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    :)
    thanks for having me. it was my pleasure to visit, i had a lot of fun.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     

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