The basic and frame stuff when throw escaping

* This FAQ is originally posted on my VF team's website, http://untitleD.aza.to/
Come visit us sometime! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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The basics of throw escaping - by PGhacker

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INTRO :

Unlike some other games(or many other games), in Virtua Fighter series, throws are essential part of the game. If you can't throw escape, and you fight an opponent who CAN throw escape, it is MUCH more likely that you are going to lose, and this has been proben by some research. This little document(FAQ)is going to expain some of the basic throw escape stuff (foundations) to start off with.



First of all, I'll go over briefly how to escape throw. If opponent is on the right side, and inputs ,,+, then you have to input + to escape the throw. Therefore, to put it short, you need to input the last direction + the + that your opponent has input in order to escape his/her throw.

The difficult thing about throw escapes is that you have to input the escape command at least 10frames after your opponent has input the command. 10 frames, which is 1/6th of a second, is 0.17 second. Since human's normal reaction time is 0.2 second, it is impossible to escape throws after you see the opponent trying to throw you. This is why you need to know what are your/your opponents' throw guaranteed move to know when to escape throws and when to throw.

Although, you do not know for sure if your opponent will throw you or use striking attacks on you. And this is where the various different throw escaping techniques and difficult frame calculations come in. But like the title suggest, this FAQ is to help you understand the foundation of the throw escape and to give you a better understanding of it. Therefore, I will explain the complex stuff in the next FAQ, and just finish up with the analysis of frame disadvantages and what you can do/cannot do.
(Danza is working on everyone's frame advantages/disadvantages of the most used moves, so we very very very much look forward to that)

- There are four situations where the throw offensive/defensive strategies can derive from.

1) Frame advantage +2 ~ +3 (For you)
Elbows can work in this situation, but because you do not have too much advantage, big mid attacks will be guarded, and for throws, the opponent can duck to avoid it. Not the best situation to perform throw. The best character in this, is Akira.(If you dont know why, play him. Dont ask)

2) Frame advantage +4 ~ +6
Big mid attacks, such as Knees or throws are possible(notice, it's not "guaranteed", but possible). There is no frame left for your opponent to duck the throw you're about to perform, but they can avoid it by using punches or fast attacks.

3) Frame advantage +7 ~ +11
If you input the throw command beforehand, almost w/e your opponent does, he/she will be thrown. This is where the throw escapes become really essential.

4) Frame advantage +12
Punch is guaranteed. Although, depending on the characters, there could be no different with no.3 situation.(Vanessa, Jeffry)

5) Others
There are others where the combo openers and other painful moves are guaranteed. I won't get into those very specific, but if I may be brief, it'd sucks to be your opponent at this stage.
(example : When Kage's 66P+K+G is blocked)


I will write my next FAQ based on situations no.2 and no.3.
Hope it helped.
Cheers.

http://untitleD.aza.to

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:
Firstly, the opponent can not crouch under a throw when you have +2 or more advantage.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry about that, not crouch, but crounch dash.
ok, so you cannot duck and avoid the throw, but you can dash crouch. I'll make correction on that.

and ill try to be not so boastful on my FAQs in da future

 

now why is that? now you guys are just confusin the hell out of me /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
SoundWave said:
now why is that? now you guys are just confusin the hell out of me /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason for this is it takes 7 frames to crouch from standing position. You can make it 6 frames by doing . Therefore, is useful when you are in -2 situation because you can duck throws and stand right up to block mid attacks. Likewise, when you are in -1 situation, you can simply do and neutral(so called fuzzy guard) to avoid both throws and mid attacks. Take a note that here we don't take delayed attacks and throws into account. (Fuzzy guard can be beaten by delayed throws or moves.)

 

oh, and just to add on madagascar's reply.
it takes 8 frames to throw. so if it's 3 frames or more, crouch(6frame), + 3 frame, which is 9 frame, which means you will be thrown.
but if it's 2 frame disadvantage, it will be 6 frame + 2 frame, which means, you won't be thrown(not guaranteed, at least)

 

Something else I wanted to add - I think crouch dash puts you in a crouch in less than six frames, but if you aren't fully crouched by the time the throw reaches you, you will be grabbed... even if you're 'almost there'.

I think crouch dash puts you in a crouch in 1 frame. I used to think 2, but from testing it looks like it's just 1. Maybe I was slow before. (maybe I'm slow now)

Some test stuff -

Goh b,f+K normal hit = +2
Goh D,f+P+K = 16 frames
therefore, if I do b,f+K (normal) --> crouch dash --> buffered shoulder ram ... if crouch dashing into shoulder ram takes 6 frames, I will lose to 18 frame attacks. But shoulder ram wins over goh's 17 frame knee, 16 frame standing K, and 15 frame f+P.

If crouch dashing took no time and you could do it instantly, then in a perfect world, b,f+K --> modified shoulder ram will beat a 14 frame elbow (two attacks are hitting at the same time, the shoulder ram and the elbow. The shrm does more damage than the elbow, and under the game's rules that means shoulder ram always wins).

In reality the elbow wins - therefore the elbow must be executing 1 frame faster than the shoulder ram, which means crouch dashing wastes at least one frame.

Another test that seems to prove this -
Kage does uf+K+G, which gives a perfectly even situation when blocked.
A perfect rising knee loses to the opponent's immediate elbow, even though rising knee is 14 frames and is stronger than an elbow.

After a blocked jab from kage, Kage is +1. My modified FC uppercut should beat goh's elbow (the upper is 15 frames and stronger than the elbow). Again the elbow wins.

So the bottom line is ...I dunno. Except that I know for sure your actual standing and crouching state isn't always the main factor as to why you get thrown. An example - if you let goh hit you with his b+P (it forces crouch) and goh buffers a throw... pressing nothing at all avoids the throw. But if you hold guard you are instantly considered standing and get thrown. Therefore avoiding throws requires more than a fully crouched state. If crouch dashing puts you fully in a crouch (enough to do modified attacks like goh's shoulder ram) in just 1 frame, it should work to duck under throws even at -6 or 7. But it only works at -2, and it might just be that sega made it that way on purpose to keep motion cut from breaking the game. Imagine if ARE were as simple as .

 

oops - fundamental info on how CDing vs crouching works.

this gets a little technical, so you can ignore it PGhacker.

Thanks to Myke for the original theory about this and for giving me ideas to test.


When you crouch dash, you are able to do from crouch moves pretty much "instantly" (1 frame)... but are you truly crouched? The answer is no...

When you crouch dash you are standing for the first six frames of your CD animation. However because you entered a motion the game assigns your character an "instant input". It's like the game gives you a fake slow-crouch-input which remains active for a few frames in case you decide you want to do any modified (FC only) attack in your arsenal. This fake D input has nothing to do with your actual standing or crouching state. You literally are standing for 6 whole frames during the crouch dash.
In layman's terms, entering df,df "activates" your ability to do from crouch attacks without literally putting you in a crouched state. How do I know?

[*]Standing throws can grab you. If you crouch dash out of a -3 situation or worse, you will get tossed.

[*]When you are at a -6 disadvantage, if you crouch dash and I low throw immediately, my low throw whiffs. The means you are considered standing during frame 2 of your CD (When my low throw is done executing and ready to grab), you are also considered standing during frame 3,4,5,and 6 ... because low throws (like high throws) have 4 frames of 'grip' animation. If you were crouching during any of the frames I listed, the low throw should work. So you are not low throwable here, but any from crouch move you want can be performed.

If you crouch dash out of a -5 situation, however, my low throw grabs you. you are invulnerable to low throws from frames 1-6 of your crouch dash animation, but on frame 7 my low throw is still active and you are truly crouched. So you get snagged.

[*]One last cute tidbit proving that the input merely "activates" the potential to do FC attacks, rather than actually putting you in a crouch:
During the first six frames of your crouch dash, you can do from-standing-only attacks such as jacky's + low backfist and pai's + evading chop. So that means for this small crouch dash window, you can choose to do both from-standing-only and from-crouch-only attacks. The timing is hard.

One more thing, which myke and I have yet to totally work out - it seems to me that if you do a followed by an input that is different when you're standing or crouching... the game chooses the FC move when it's a unique, FC only attack.

For example - pai does ,, ... and in the next 6 frames, neutral, +. Will pai do the standing + chop, or the crouching two handed lifting palms? She always does the lifting palms. However if you do , --> neutral ---> + ... she gets the unique + from standing attack rather than the boring low punch, which is a move that works from either position. Another example - I can do --> neutral --> ++ with pai and get a reverse crescent kick. If I do --> neutral --> + with pai I will always get the special FC +, not the standing + that goes into CE stance.

My theory about this: The game "picks" the special FC only attack when you're making an input that could be either a FS attack or a FC attack.

Myke's theory about this: The game has a large window between a input and the FC move (like + or +). So once the fake input is in there, it doesn't matter what timing you use, a FC attack will always come out.

I hope someone understood this, even if nobody cared /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif
For practical purposes, it's been known for a long time that you can't crouch dash out of -3 situations and that df,df allows FC attacks within 1 or 2 frames.
So this just explains how these two facts can both be true in the game's complex and elegant rules. Aren't you all glad sega puts so much thought into this shit?

 

Re: oops - fundamental info on how CDing vs crouching works.

I'd just like to point out that you contradict your own ideas in two following posts.

[ QUOTE ]
CreeD said:

Something else I wanted to add - I think crouch dash puts you in a crouch in less than six frames, but if you aren't fully crouched by the time the throw reaches you, you will be grabbed... even if you're 'almost there'.
I think crouch dash puts you in a crouch in 1 frame. I used to think 2, but from testing it looks like it's just 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
CreeD said:

When you crouch dash, you are able to do from crouch moves pretty much "instantly" (1 frame)... but are you truly crouched? The answer is no...

[/ QUOTE ]

'True' of 'full' crouch and the 6 frame df,df animation should be distinguished more exactly. As you said, a character is invulnerable to low throws from frames 1-6 of the CD animation, which means calling it 'crouch' is really a bit misguiding. What kind of height is the CD animation considered anyways?

 

Re: oops - fundamental info on how CDing vs crouching works.

I'd just like to point out that you contradict your own ideas in two following posts.

Yes, that is why I put "oops" in the subject of the second post - it was meant as a correction to what I said before.

'True' of 'full' crouch and the 6 frame df,df animation should be distinguished more exactly. As you said, a character is invulnerable to low throws from frames 1-6 of the CD animation, which means calling it 'crouch' is really a bit misguiding. What kind of height is the CD animation considered anyways?

It's standing during frames 1-6. Frames 7 and beyond are crouching.
The fact that you can access from crouch moves during frames 1-6 is a special property sega gave it.

As for special terminology... I dunno if the distinction is so important it needs to be bothered with... the important part to remember is that

you can perform FC attacks just 1 frame after being in a standing position
you can high thrown during the opening frames of the crouch dash because you're not really crouched yet.
a low throw will grab a CD when the opponent is -1 to -5, but when they're -6 or worse a low throw will fail.
---

Myke jokingly calls the six frame state where FC moves are accessible "Insta-D" or "instant ". But it seems like an ugly and relatively useless term to try to promote... we already have "modified" which is good enough.