The dodge is killing me

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Pinkgirl, Nov 18, 2001.

  1. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    What I've discovered from more than 100 games of vf4 definitely (yeah I'm broke): the dodge function (tapping up) is really ridiculous! It gets mixed up with when I want to do moves!!!!!! Argh....

    E.g. Lion: up+k becomes dodge up....even though I made it a point to press the k immediately after the up.

    I just don't get it! Why did Sega remove the E button!! /versus/images/icons/mad.gif I bet many of you who've played the game have had such an experience! It's also frustrating when sometimes you want to do a move and it ends up being executed as dodging instead...

    Anyone have a way round this??????
     
  2. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Please don't take this the wrong way.

    The E button is gone. The new method of movement (well, not really) is here. Through practice, you will be able to adjust to the new system. The key word is practice. Maybe you have a problem with timing or manual dexterity or whatever, but if you put a decent amount of time into the game, you will figure it out.

    E.g. Lion: up+k becomes dodge up....even though I made it a point to press the k immediately after the up.

    Try pressing K while tapping up. Tapping up, and then pressing a button will make you dodge and attack.
     
  3. Rugal

    Rugal Well-Known Member

    I agree. Dumbest thing AM2 did with VF4 was to remove the dodge button.
    If their aim was to simplify the control system by removing the dodge button then they failed miserably.
    The second dumbest thing was to remove the multi-level arenas.Added much more strategy to VF3, and without it in VF4 the game becomes much more a button mashing contest.
     
  4. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    I agree with with both your points, but disagree with the conclusion that you draw from the second point. VF4 has not become a button mashing contest merely from the removal of elevation changes in a stage...is that to suggest that vf2 is a button mashing contest because it does not have neither the E button or undulation? I think not.
     
  5. Rugal

    Rugal Well-Known Member

    True on your point about it becoming a button masher. But to me it seems as though the recovery time of attacks has been lessened in VF4, and the speed of the game increased. From this, you can see that it has become a hell of a lot easier for button mashers to play the game then it was in VF3. In Vf3 a seasoned player could kick the shit out of a button masher. In Vf4, it is a hell of a lot harder to dispose of poking characters in the hands of a masher (Lau, Lion).
     
  6. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    But to me it seems as though the recovery time of attacks has been lessened in VF4, and the speed of the game increased.

    This was what a lot of us thought when we first started playing VF4... but after playing for a couple of months, you'll find that there still are plenty of throw-counterable moves, guaranteed situations etc.
     
  7. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I agree. Dumbest thing AM2 did with VF4 was to remove the dodge button.
    If their aim was to simplify the control system by removing the dodge button then they failed miserably.
    The second dumbest thing was to remove the multi-level arenas.Added much more strategy to VF3, and without it in VF4 the game becomes much more a button mashing contest.

    <hr></blockquote>
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    True on your point about it becoming a button masher. But to me it seems as though the recovery time of attacks has been lessened in VF4, and the speed of the game increased. From this, you can see that it has become a hell of a lot easier for button mashers to play the game then it was in VF3. In Vf3 a seasoned player could kick the shit out of a button masher. In Vf4, it is a hell of a lot harder to dispose of poking characters in the hands of a masher (Lau, Lion).

    <hr></blockquote> I agree with both posts you've made on all counts. I think what you mean by "button mashers" being able to triumph over "expert" players is that now, even a person who doesn't know how to play the game can actually win, in a match against a person who does know how to play... lack of terrain also makes the game more boring. I remember Pai's sloping roof stage (VF3) enabled lots of fascinating combos to be done, and Wolf's bumpy (and lumpy! lol) desert stage made lots of normally "guaranteed" combos a lot more "uncertain". Movement now is so much more linear (lack of E button) and this makes it more accessible to new players, which is why it'd be easier for them (less one factor to deal with: dimension) to win. I suppose a lot of the game is now up to guessing and no longer that much skill/expertise.

    And...at the end of the day, VF4's dodge is still killing me. /versus/images/icons/mad.gif lol
     
  8. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    actually I liked the standardization of the playing field. It is so much more constant and everything is the same for all the characters. Less variables to consider and thus more emphasis on practise and skill. It is like playing football on an uneven playing field. You don't know how the ball will bounce. I rather the playing field to be the same always so through experience, I know exactly what I can do or not do.
     
  9. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Agrees with Alan.
    I think AM2 did a pretty good job with the arena design by reducing the number of variables.

    VF4 is faster than its previous incarnations but that doesn't mean the "skill" factor has been removed. I got my ass spanked by a "button masher" Lion because I have not enough skill, not because VF changed. It is just a new ball game for everyone.
     
  10. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Indeed. At times while playing VF3 I found that the stage defeated me rather than the player. If you were unlucky enough to be caught in the air on Pai's stage by Lau, you were pretty much gone by the time you hit the ground. I'm a VF2 Veteran, and am pleased with AM2's shift back to that style. The level playing ground is exactly that. Level.

    Sega have taken away most of the variables with stages and replaced them in a more dynamic form with wall bounces. I love the new dodge system as It's far more instinctive and natural. If you want to go up or down, just tap or hold in that direction. The lack of the E button frees up my fingers and allows me to concentrate on less buttons. The dodge is still there, it just takes far more dedication, something I think experience players should appreciate.

    With regard to speed, yes, I would say it's faster but that's more fun to me. the removal of the old VF3 block animation being replaced with the hit stun animation is a master stroke by AM2. Not only does it keep fights moving but it's a serious pressure technique against Turtles and counter happy players.

    The only thing I don't like about VF4 is the simplified counters. That really gets me as a Sarah user it's so much harder to play against a counter oriented character as 80% of her moves fall under one counter level. The subtraction of the Kickflip counter was a huge mistake.
     
  11. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    I couldn't agree more. One thing people fail to understand is that this is VF4. Not VF3.1 or an extension of an old game.

    It's a new game. New rules, new gameplay. The issues with dodging are from one's reluctance to adapt to the new game. When VF3 came out, people whined about the E-button, and the increase in recovery and all the rest. But they adapted. So, adapt. Practice your ass off and you'll have no trouble. There was no guarantee that if you played VF3 well, that you'd be able to play VF4 well as a result.

    cheers,
     
  12. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Strange
    In vf3, I have indeed..lost on some occasions to smashers...
    yet in VF4...never lost to any mashers AT ALL.

    Of coz..there are certain type of mashers that ' appear' to be randomly mashing the buttons...but in reality, they do have certain knowledge of them game, albeit extremely limited. Still, in VF4...I have not lost to a single one of them..however, the engine n system in VF3 allows the game to not only be played expertly, it also allows the game to be dumbdowned..letting a masher/random pokerthons etc to actually snatch a vic from players who are definitely superior than the mashers. I am definitely not the only person to feel this way.


    For example, the ability to QR allows me to not only avoid SILLY combos like Jacky's "elbow-->heelkick-->stomp"

    Plus, with the inclusions of sabaki, an improved version of inashi for some characters, I really disagree with the notion of ' guessing over skills/expertise'.

    In fact, I'm glad uneven terrains are gone. Silly stages like Pai's stage makes it ridiculous for Aoi users to be ROed easily just because of terrain issues.

    wolf's stage in VF3 was always my most 'hated' stage...esp if Kage decides to do nothing but back E all the time. Watching Kage using such a pathetic tactic to snatch a vic over wolf/almost winning Akira in the beat tribe tape was truly a horrible sight to behold. Of coz, Kage is not only the sole reason to hate that stage. just a boring BGM n boring stage in general IMO. ( Aye fellow VFDCers, feel free to diagree...)

    I do agree though, a part of me feels weird that the lack of the E button is missing. On some levels, it's feels weird not to be able to KS whenever I feel like it and feels strange not being able to KS with my Akira ( I like KSing with Akira and my other characters... Like Andy said a couple of days ago, I'm a movement whore in VF3tb, constant footwork, hands never get tired..kinda fun)

    But in all honesty, the new dodge system in VF4 is way better than the E button in VF3. VF3 dodge does not allow u to evade moves like the way one is allowed in VF4. U just have to be able to predict the move, then do a successful dodge in VF4. If anything, it demands more skills from the player to be able to predict and counter, instead of relying on the system in VF3.
     
  13. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    If you're playing against a beginner that doesn't know how to QR/TR, victory should be reassuredly yours!!
     
  14. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I think ppl must be misreading pinkgirl's post.
    Is she bitching about "Damn the new VF4 dodge"? no.
    Is she saying "I hate the changes in dodging from 3 --> 4"? no.

    She is merely saying she hates the new command for dodge because it leads to ambiguity and frequent fuckups. It's the same argument VF players use when they are comparing the game to street fighter. "back to block is silly, what if you really want to move back and instead get stuck in a blocking position?"
    Having a button for blocking and one for dodging takes away that ambiguity and decreases the chances of accidents by about 100%. I for one wish they had kept the E button. I'm sure someone will take this argument to its extreme and say "sure, and why not have a separate button for forward and a separate one for back etc. etc." . .. no, I'm not saying that. Having four buttons was sufficient and not confusing to anyone.

    Of course, Llany here has a very good point. The game is already released and Sega is not going to do a recall or anything, so any bitching about it is pointless. Adapting is the only option.
     
  15. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    I actually like the elimination of kickflip reversals... with VF3, it was pretty much suicide to try reversing one anyway, this simply makes it a viable option. (Of course, if he has time to reverse, he probably has time to block, so why are you kickflipping anyway?)

    I agree about the Sarah stuff though... at least in VF3 she had moves which were randomly reversed high to prevent this. I'm guessing Lion now has the same problem.
     
  16. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    the E button felt more free and presice, especially with k-step movement..

    the total DELAY of movement in VF4 really slows me down, especially against JACKY fighters

    mann....oh....MAN!!
     
  17. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    i'm no vf4 hater or anything but there will always be a place in my heart for the e button. one could talk to me all fucking day about the benefits of vf4's movement system, and e button would still rule.

    vf3's intro of an e button is the equivalent of using g to block, instead of holding back. it's just BETTER. fact.

    /versus/images/icons/smile.gif x 35 [(c) piccolo, 2001]
     
  18. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Of course, Llany here has a very good point. The game is already released and Sega is not going to do a recall or anything, so any bitching about it is pointless. Adapting is the only option.

    And that was my point from the start. I didn't (and still don't) see any point about complaining about the lack of the E button. If I gave the impression that I thought that she was whining about "Damn the new VF4 dodge", then that was not my intention.

    re: Pinkgirl
    And at the end of the day, you still have to practice and adapt./versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  19. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    I actually like the elimination of kickflip reversals...

    Huh? I must be misreading your post. There are still kickflip reversals in the game. They can be done with db+P+K.
     
  20. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Hehe, I meant kickflip-specific reversals. (If they didn't exist they wouldn't be a "viable option", no?)
     

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