The F word

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Crew Wolf, Oct 18, 2001.

  1. Crew Wolf

    Crew Wolf Active Member

    Hey everyone. Any chance that frame data is out yet? Also, I think I need a little confirmation in my frame data reading... Normally, frame data appears as 3 numbers: x-y-z. I'm assuming that this is read as follows:

    x: initial frames of moves, cannot be thrown, move does not connect yet
    y: frames during which the move connects, causing damage/stun. Normally a very small number
    z: recoil frames of moves, vulnerable to throw / attack, cannot yet block/move

    Is this the general outline of frame data? Thanks for any help and/or directions!

    <i>Ultimately, we are all dead men...</i>
     
  2. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    Framedata

    As far as I know... Framedata is not out yet, I have a copy of the Perfect Guide which is the most recent book on VF4 and it's not in there... only move damage.

    You are correct in your Framerate understanding though. x-y-z,

    Execution -- the number of frames leading up to the move's collision dectection section.

    Collision -- the number of frames where the move may 'hit' the opponent

    Recovery (aka Hardening): the number of frames that one is unable to do anything.
    Note: in VF3 there was an 8 frame window where one was unable to throw after coming out of block stun a move. So, you would need at least a 9 frame advantage for a move to be "throw-counterable". I have no idea if this remains in VF4.

    There is a better form of frame data. That is the Execution and Advantage times. The execution is the same as mentioned above, and the Advantages times are the number of frames you have on your opponent if you connect with the move. Advantage times normally come in three varieties: blocked, hit, counter hit. I find them to be better numbers because they let you know just how counterable a move is if you block it.


    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  3. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    in VF3 there was an 8 frame window where one was unable to throw after coming out of block stun a move. So, you would need at least a 9 frame advantage for a move to be "throw-counterable".

    Ummm... you needed 8 frames or more, not at least 9 - at +8 moves were throw-counterable.

    <font color=orange>I probably hate you.</font color=orange> /versus/images/icons/mad.gif
     
  4. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    True, minor point but true. I give one frame for the input. You have to be very tight to get moves that have precisely 8 frames since at that same time your opponent can be hitting punch. At 9 frames your opponent can't punch yet but you can throw (i.e. you're getting the throw in at the 8th frame, and you know for sure that your opponent sitll can't do anything). Call it margin of error -- the human touch... whatever.



    kbcat
     
  5. Post Man

    Post Man Member

    kbcat, that system you suggested is what is used in Tekken. But it doesn't tell you what can be punnished all the time. Sometimes yo may even get a good 14frame advantage and not have a garanteed followup bc your opponent was displaced is such a way you couldn't punnish them. But it does indicate when you have advantages or when you have an initiative. But if the distance leaves you far enough away that your most reasonable attacks are ones with a higher frame count until the first hit, then Your advantage isn't realy there to an edjucated opponent. Visa versa, you could actually do a move that leaves you at a frame disadvantage yet the distance works in your favour. This is very very common in Tekken. I wouldn't be surprised if this is common in VF as well. I'm new to VF but I'm sure its in this game. My point is that this type of frame system can be very misleading. I like the Idea of using both. The collision frame count is something I would have loved to have had in tekken. shouldn't this tell you when you can punnish a wiffed move? the sum of x+y? also, do some moves have properties for the first few frames, like dodge high? thats just an example. it would be nice if there was info on how long certant properties lasted on certant moves and when they occured.
     
  6. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    All very true and valid points. Yeah there are moves in VF that betray their Adavantage data and are harder to punish because of the distancing problems that you mention. I agree with your 'the more, the merrier" philosophy regarding data. At the moment it would be nice to have any frame-data.


    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  7. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    I don't there's much point giving that one frame out, especially since you can buffer the throw or attack in. I think it's just best to stick with the hard data.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  8. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    VF does have circumstances where a move won't mC due to range or whatever, even though it fits within the recovery time. But it's rare enough that just the number alone and using common sense (buffering, being quick, not being at super extreme range etc) that the block figures are pretty much cut and dried 9/10 times.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    Call it margin of error -- the human touch... whatever.

    Or terrain, and in some weird cases, stance as well. Basically, range mattered.

    EDIT: Oops, just read the rest of the thread, my points were mostly stated (except for terrain). Sorry for the redundancy.
     
  10. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    And of course there's weird collision detection, or at least moves that you can almost not-tell they're going to go around a hit area.

    Maybe playing Lion as much as I have has clearly shown me this... There's the glitchy matters, the special case matters, and then the "it actually didn't touch because it circles around" matter/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

    On a side note, I've chatted with and played Kage players who sort of neglected some of the little "exceptions" outlined in Surprise Exchange situations that Rich posted in his f+P+G analysis. Heck, even after certain things became obvious to me, I thought of them as special traits of the DC version, but nope... it's in the analysis. However one thing I'd like to seek clarification on, do Akira and Lau count as smaller opponents? They have situations where they can avoid Kage's DP following f+P+G.

    -Chanchai
     
  11. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    I'm quite curious about Kage's f+P+G in VF4:

    f+P+G ~ DP,K
    Is this guaranteed? Kyasao seems to use it all the time.

    f+P+G ~ (CD) Knee ~ df+K+G or DP
    Is this guaranteed? I don't think so, but I haven't seen anyone run away from, dodge, or block it yet.


    [​IMG]
     
  12. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    And speaking of which.... how DOES the new movement system handle dodges when one's back is turned? Is it simply a turn-around or do they actually dodge away? Is the area of movement the same? Is it based on opponent's execution state as I am guessing the general system works?

    -Chanchai
     
  13. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    If your back is turned, and you press u or d, you get a little sidestep plus a turnaround.

    If your back is turned, and you press u or d, and the opponent is launching an attack simultaneously, I'm not sure whether you get a big dodge + turnaround, a big dodge without turnaround, or a small dodge + turnaround. Any takers?


    [​IMG]
     
  14. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    re: VF4 f+P+G,DPK - Daily VF4 has some stuff on it (the same stuff can be found on other dedicated Kage VF4 pages). Only went over it briefly, didn't bother to decipher Babel-speak. Try it, give us your interpretations.

    re: VF3 f+P+G,DP on DC - The DC version is shit. All characters except Taka can avoid Kage's f+P+G,DP sequence on even and downhill terrain by simply crouch-inching or CD'ing forward.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    Thankfully the SE -> DP sequence works fairly well in versus combat, except maybe a few instances where it's basically guaranteed not to hit if you're defending right.
     
  16. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    Huh? "Defending right"? WTF *are* you talking about?

    What I said applies to DC VF3tb, any situation. It just doesn't work, Jimmy.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    Works just fine in game situations, even against you.

    "Defending right" -> i.e. Aoi. Need I say more or do I have to spell everything out to you Mr. Bungle?
     
  18. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    > Works just fine in game situations, even against you.

    It doesn't work just fine in game situations, you retarded cock. And I always got nailed with it because I always forgot to remember that I was playing on the shit DC version (and/or just didn't give a fuck). There's even a movie in the much vaunted VFDC film archive (which for some fucked up reason you've pointed out to people who've asked for movies here on VS city that VFDC has a movie archive - but that it's not up and probably never will be again, at least not in the same form) which points out just how easy it is to get away from.

    Even in my current state of tipsyness I still have the brain to immediately see that you're still not making any sense whatsoever (and that you probably never will admit that you said something totally fucking unintelligible or even just plain wrong). I mean: "Defending right-> i.e. Aoi". Jesus Christ al-fucking-mighty jumped on a big steel barbed dildo!! What the fuck does this MEAN? Does it mean to guard in some special way? Maybe to hold right? WTF? Reversals aren't "defending right". CD/crouch-inching away isn't "defending right". I'd love to see you work your magic and twist and spin "defending right" into actually meaning reversals or CD'ing/CI'ing forward.

    Actually on second thought I really don't. Go away, brat.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  19. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    > It doesn't work just fine in game situations, you retarded cock.

    It works just fine. Hmm, in fact, it works just on about everybody that I've played against in the U.S. Maybe if you actually had a DC and a VF3tb you would know better...oh wait, that's right, it's below you.

    > And I always got nailed with it because I always forgot to remember that I was playing on the shit DC version (and/or just didn't give a fuck).

    Riiiight...

    > There's even a movie in the much vaunted VFDC film archive (which for some fucked up reason you've pointed out to people who've asked for movies here on VS city that VFDC has a movie archive - but that it's not up and probably never will be again, at least not in the same form) which points out just how easy it is to get away from.

    There was about a gig of movies on the old VFDC archive. I guess you must think it costs nothing to host. Oh wait, maybe I should just compile everything on a CD, collect money from people for the archive and never deliver.

    > I'd love to see you work your magic and twist and spin "defending right" into actually meaning reversals or CD'ing/CI'ing forward.

    LOL...you're a funny guy Mr. Bungle.
     
  20. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    Re: Framedata

    nah, that was not his fault at all, its rax that totally disappeared. cant have control over that...

    [​IMG]
     

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