Cool story video, but you can tell he really does spend 10 minutes a month with VF since most of what he had to say was from the view point of Namco fighters.

The VF series is pretty consistent with the others with VF3 onward, with the differences being in the stepping and frame adjustments to when you Fuzzy, CD Fuzzy, TEG/ETE etc.

VF isn't a slow game either so he's off base with that one, as it's the fastest game out there, still.

His other points were on the mark, about 2D combos and 3D reading, and people not knowing what they are watching from a laymens perspective.

One other thing, is that scrubs from both sides don't really understand either games. 2D scrubs whine about the close-up game being "too random" because they can't hang with the High/Mid/Low game, and 3D scrubs whine about the spacing game and projectiles.

I agree with what Femto said. 2D games are more immediate if you just approached the beat'em up games.... but I think it's natural, since you add a third dimension

It was always going to be tough for SC to recover after part IV. Listening to him there, evidently it hasn't. Imagine if Myke` made an awkward and intense rambling video statement claiming Jacky was broken, and the players were basement dwelling losers. I almost feel sorry for them, but hey, FS is only ever a download away.

Also, 2D games just within the Capcom sphere can require a wildly different mentality and flow, for example, 3s up close parrying vs MvC2's long range and flying. How can a webmaster of a whole fighting game site remain so obtuse to the nuances within the two sub-genres? Did he just drink that bottle of rum before going on cam?

At least he is saying we give people a nice welcome here, so, uh, hopefully he will join up soon and start playing VF more

Thought I put in my original post, but despite the criticism where I don't agree with Jaxel, I'm grateful he takes his time to stream VF when other people don't, sans Team Khaos in PDX, and GC in Seattle (when we can make it at least).

I would like it if he played more, but due to his scheduling, I can see how that's a problem.

The only thing holding back VF is the updates not coming here and special effects. If they can add those without making the game cinematic heavy like the other fighing games, it can take off here in the West, Sega just needs a nice balance of keeping VF, VF (fast paced, plethora of options, both players being engaged the entire time) and making the game visually more appealing to the Western masses.

Some very good points made. I was talking to a friend about some of the same points a month or two ago.

In many 2D games, it's obvious which side is winning and which side is getting thrashed because the combos are long, so the audience know who to cheer on. In VF, in many circumstances when people trade rapid fire jabs and pokes, no one is sure who's got the advantage.

Also, in 2D games, super freezes double as the APPLAUSE sign to signal people to cheer. Super freeze? Here it comes!! Get hype NOOOWWW!!! Easy audience participation. I can see why DOA added that.

On VF, I think the changes game to game have been significant. I started out with Lau in VF, then Shun in VF2, then Jacky and Lau in VF3, moved on to Jeffrey and Vanessa in VF4, and finally El Blaze in VF5. All along Pai was a secondary character I played except for during VF4Evo when I mained her. What I like about it is I've had to take a different approach to every VF game, but it always feels like I'm building on my skills rather than throwing them away. I can pull out my VF3 style Jacky in VF5FS and my old stuff still works. It's just there are even better tactics now, so I can't just rest on my laurels.


Also, VF is still seen as a slow game for a few reasons. Downs last slightly longer than other games, especially when you get jerks who refuse to tech(like me), and when you get a low level game where people do single hit knockdowns without combo followups, back away a lot and don't tech, the game can really really drag.

VF has a lot of rapid fire decisions that go completely over people's heads. Take an example of a player blocking a standing jab. Say he does crouch dash fuzzy and blocks the next elbow, then tries for throw but opponent abares with 2P and hits him, so at disadvantage he tries evade but eats opponent's low circular, then tries abare but finally eats a launcher. This guy's made 4 split second decisions in a row, but the audience doesn't see any of that. They just see him getting whacked, because it seems like his opponent was doing a Street Fighter block string and if it were that game, he should have just patiently blocked it and waited for a chance to tech throw, which is only one decision to make rather than 4. It looks like a simple one point situation to people who don't play VF, and that makes the game look slow.

On the VF community, it's nice that Jaxel holds it in high regard. We'll have to try to keep living up to that image though. Game communities can be fickle, and it's easy to start taking things for granted.

Oh Jaxel love and hate I have for this guy sometimes he make complete sense other times he sounds like a god damn nut case. I think people would give him more slack if had some doubt but he is arrogant, ah well. As for what he said this time round.

SC was played even in 4 the real problem with SC5 is simple Story got whacked and the odd char removal choices talim and zas gone replaced by 2 sword and shield odd move there, then game has 2 random style chars odd choices, I smell budget cuts.

As for this whole 3d 2d thing, other places in world VF is very popular. Truth be told when companies ease up from making fighting games cause right now market is saturated people will start having time to branch out.

I know what Jaxel is trying to say.... and a couple of his points are valid, just not in the context that he presents them in.

If you really want to understand why 2D fighting game community is larger than the 3D fighting game community or why the 2D fighters are more popular than 3D fighters, you really have to look at the history of fighting games, and exactly whose still playing them in the U.S. (I can't comment on other countries), the ages of the players are important here, and when ppl were first introduced to fighting games in general.

The 2D fighting game for the most part was born in the Arcade era. And here is where one Jaxel's points come in., In the arcade era dexterity, muscle memory, eye-hand cooordination rained supreme. The original fighting games back then were all about that. The heroes, the great players, all had the hallmark of amazing dexterity. But the arcade also introduced the notion of computer graphics and computer generated sound to the gamer, the amazing colors, the special effects, the outrageous stages, the sound effects and music all worked together to make the 2D fighter one of the enjoyable things you could do with tokens. (You can't separate the 2D fighter from its visual presentation) Add to that the fact that sheer skill was a factor at whose initials would be left in the top spot on the machine, as the 2D fighter evolved the more elaborate the special effects became, the longer the combos became, and the kewlest, showiest combos required the most dexterity, muscle memory, and speed. A 2D fighter in the arcade was the very definition of a fight game, and that was the case for years. The FG community was at the arcades in those days, no forums, no web sites not until later. PPL new who the players were because they played face to face. The 2D fighter in the arcades represented the absolute glory days of the fighting game.

The advent of the console games saw every fighting game vendor trying to reproduce the success of the 2D Fghter at home (more or less). So for a short time the very concept of a fighting game whether in the arcade or at home was a 2D fighter! And any community built around fighting games could only conceptualize it as a 2D thing. Of course 2D fighting game is more popular!


But Eventually the game programmers figured out the 3D graphics thing, and towards the end of the arcade era (in the US) the 3D arcade fighter was introduced. But here's is where the subtle shift comes in. Jaxel is correct in recognizing that 3D fighters required a different set of skills than what was needed in 2D fighters. But what Jaxel doesn't mention is that whole 3D thing represented a shift in video games across the board! The 2D racing games, side scrollers, space invaders types, and fighting games all were about incredible dexterity, speed, muscle memory, eye-hand coordination, but 3D games introduced a whole new cognitive way to even approach playing video games (all video games).

Just the notion of 3D regardless to how comic, or fantasy based the graphics were, introduced another dimension of realism in the games including the 3D fighting game. Developers who wanted to take advantage of this new 3D graphics etc, started exploring more with 3D models than with simple sprites. This include models of stages, locations, objects, etc. Also around the same time was the introduction of 8bit to 16bit sound, which also added a kind of realism (if you look back at the games back then you wouldn't think realism) but in comparison to the 2D genre, yes realism.

But 2D fighting games were the gold standard, that's what we all grew up on, that's what was originally in the arcades, and when it comes right down to it, 2D fighters are the real McCoy.

To this day, the 2D fighting community is older in age (in general) Many of the ppl playing 2D fighters today grew up in the arcades, and remember spending, quarters, tokens, etc. That first rush of flawlessly pulling off a 10,12,15 hit combo with great dexterity and accuracy. They remember it all.

Sure with the introduction of Virtua Fighter, SC and Tekken a 3D fighting community did develop, but it always played second fiddle (at least romantically) to the bona-fide fighting game, the 2D fighter. 3D fighters were introduced more or less at the end of the arcade glory days, after 2D fighters had already defined what a arcade fighting game was all about.

In comes 3D fighters where the gamer producers were exploring various levels of realness that 3D graphics made possible, and in a 3D fighting game, tactics, the spacing game, decision making seem to be requisite skills for becoming a top playing, understanding situations, 3D space introduced far more possibilities for a defensive game in Fighters. So the defensive game came into its own, in the 3D fighter. Yes 3D fighters kept some of the notions from 2D like floaters and combos, but the new 3D space added so many new possibilities for defense and offense and also the notion of 3D objects gave developers a lot more to play with.

So the 2D fighter fantasy, over the top computer graphics, special effects, hit effects etc, go a different direction in the 3D fighters. Gameplay changes and look-and-feel changes, so much so, that a 3D arcade fighter is a different animal than a 2D arcade fighter, and greatness in one does not imply greatness in the other.

The ages (in general) of the 3D fighting community tend to be younger, many 3D fighters have never even seen a U.S. arcade! and what the hell is a token?

The original fighting games were built with 2D graphics and played in arcades, and for large parts of the existing fighting community, this nostalgic fact is a major contributor to why 2D fighters are still more popular (even now) than 3D fighting games.

But the real issue, is that video games are evolving away from sheer dexterity, speed, muscle memory, precise hand-eye coordination, to skill sets that the masses have and no real dedication or practice is required. The video game business has become so big, that today's game has got to be playable by little sister, grand ma, grand pa, the physically/mentally impaired, by anyone who has the money..

So the fighting game whether 2D or 3D is no longer a mainstream gaming genre. The action horror, action adventure, RPG, sports , and shooter games have taken front and center.

master pro I agree most of what you said, but maybe my eyes are busted but VF vets look older than most of top 2d players. So don't agree with you 100% on age thing though what you say makes sense logically. That it maybe the case that older 2d players may have stop going to tournies in general.
Also main reason why I think 2d is popular is reason you stated and the media most people in our age group tends to watch makes them prefer 2d action.

Also dead space on hard is no cake walk lol

Jaxel is the man plain and simple. I remember telling my brothers if Final Showdown ever came out over here I would learn the game and start competing in it. Luckily the game finally came out with and I had to prove to my brothers I could learn a game like VF.

So, I have been going to these Philly majors for about 2 years now slowly gaining a small rep (that is to say people recognize me )

I remember the first tournament I was able to play Virtua in, last year's Summer Jam. I got there early and was practicing in command dojo. Jaxel was just chilling by his streaming station when he notices my friend and I playing some VF. He asks us if we wanna play on stream. I was completely shocked that a nobody like me could ever play on stream and accepted. Many matches were fought and then Jaxel asked my buddy to get off so he could play me.

He wasn't necessarily the best but he was more knowledgeable than me using Jean Kujo against my Aoi. After our first 2 matches he provided some commentary, giving me some easy guaranteed punishes and making me aware of Jean's stance and to pay attention to his back leg.

just like that I felt like improved about 150% and kept on learning throughout the day from fighting other Aoi mains and other good players like Cozby.

Seeing Jaxel's kindness inspired me to start running my own local weekly that is only growing with the mindset, be kind to everyone, teach anyone, and spread the love.

Let me put that out there Jaxel not a bad person. Just disagree with him on some stuff

I got nothing but respect and love for Jaxel and I think his points are on the mark.

his points on this are mostly correct I think master pro filled in most of the holes. I also think media that people watch has role to play, anime is very popular and fighting games that have long combos and flashy finish would appeal more to those folks, that said people who like MMA and combat sports might find VF more appealing due it kinda more realist approach to fighting games. I Remember while back watching K1 fighting in Japanese Sega VF was big sponsor to such events.

That was a very informative video. Jaxel was very articulate and managed to get his point across. BTW I use to love me some SC2 . Its my favorite 3d fighter till this day!

I haven't watched the video yet, but personally I have always thought VF is fun to play and not so fun to watch(unless the players are really good) 2D-games are the exact opposite to me.

Crap play is crap play no matter 2D or 3D. At least with VF the round end in 45 seconds as opposed to 99 seconds.

I actually have fun watching more mid-level play than anything in VF, as the pace is still fast, you still see the mechanics being put to use, but the decisions aren't always sound and stuff gets dropped or not punished like you'd see in high-level match. I like the imperfections and can see the charm in them.

less it's popular more i'll check for;and vf is just a paradise of input.I "play" a game to play not to watch,that's why i don't mind about effects,just happy to fight vs someone who put his mind in a 60 frames real time per second.
the dopamine you get is in your brain not in the other.have fun is the more simple thing to have in a video game

I think Jaxel has a pre-occupation with 2D vs 3D. He talks about it a LOT.

I think "Capcom fighting games vs other fighting games" is more suitable title here.
When we say 2D fighting game, we're basically referring to Street Fighter (SF) and its copycats (MvC, KOF & Guilty Gear).

Mortal Kombat falls into 2D fighting category but it doesn't fit into Jaxel's description of 2D fighting.