The VF Theory of Finite Skill

In VF3, I knew how to play with all the characters and often rotated frequently among them in gatherings (not smart, in retrospect). In VF4, however, with time being much more limited, I can only play with fewer than half the cast to a competitive level (I've owned cards for Kage, Jacky, Wolf, Jeffry, Shun, Vanessa, Goh, and messed around with Lion, Aoi, and Lau).

What I've realized is that there are only a certain amount of characters that I can regularly play at one time--any more, and the quality of play for each character begins to suffer as my scope broadens beyond what is efficient. I've found that number to be around 3-4 characters in my case.

What I've also found is that, not only is there a limit as to how many characters I should use in my regular rotation, certain characters don't go well with others at all. Jacky and Lau spoil my Kage. These two characters are so easy to play with offensively that I find myself becoming lazy with Kage. After a few matches with those two characters, I often found myself ,ing with Kage!

Alas, what I'm also beginning to discover is that Vanessa, like Jacky and Lau, makes my Kage worse. I find myself in preparation of certain flow charts, buffering the 270 motions... It's a little bit sad, because I think my Vanessa has the chance to become really, really good. I like her flexibility, her depth, and her ability to dictate the game on her own terms. However, it almost feels like I can truly master only Vanessa, or Kage, but not both.

That's a hard decision to make, but I have always considered myself a Kage player. I think what I will probably do is keep my regular rotation of Kage, Shun, and Jeffry. These three characters, to me anyway, seem to go well together.

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking like this? Are there any other combinations that make sense (by this, I mean, would learning one character come at no cost of skill to playing another character in the same combination, given a certain playing style)?

<ul type="square">
- Jacky, Lau, Sarah, OS Vanessa: elbow-punch games
- Akira, Goh: same kind of thinking regarding shoulder ram and dashing elbow
- Pai, Jacky, Lion: the dash-forwards-backwards pokers
- Sarah, Lei Fei, Lau: continuous offense
- Wolf, Jeffry, DS Vanessa: careful defense
- Goh, DS Vanessa, Aoi, Pai, Lau, Shun: being at a disadvantage means little
Etc.
[/list]

It's sad because, quite frankly, I think if I was to master and exclusively play each character individually, Kage, Lau, and Vanessa would be my top characters. The theoretical sum of those three would definitely be greater competitively than the sum of my current team in Kage, Shun, and Jeffry. The reality, however, is that there is no way I can play Kage, Lau, and Vanessa in the same rotation and play them well.

P.S. alucard I think you should try Lion...you already have Jacky and Pai in your rotation!

 

Re: Theory of Finite Skill

Good thread! I started VF playing Lei Fei and just began playing with some other characters causually. Lei use P+K+G almost every second and i find myself pressing P+K+G a lot for no apparent reason when i switch to other characters. It's almost like i want to dance with Jacky lol!

I think this has a lot to do with VF4 being significantly more complicated than VF3. I used to play all characters in VF3 without any problems but i think i would never be able to do that in VF4.

Your list makes a lot of sense to me btw.

I would group it this way:

-Fast, Poking style: Aoi, Jacky, Lau, Sarah, Pai, Lion
-Variety: Kage, Shun
-P+K+G dependant: Lei Fei
-Tapping: Akira, Goh
-Defensive and careful: Wolf, Jeffery, DS Vanessa, Goh

 

Well if you play with Lau for a full week, month... and totally neglect your Kage then that might mess up your game but other than that I don't see how it could be a problem. It might be a factor for a few matches but you should be able to adapt afterwards. It's the same for every fighting game : You play different characters but should never neglect your ace. , with Kage !!! C'mon Ice, I don't believe you. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I got to admit that it's a pain in the ass to jump from Lion to Akira though but I think it all depends on how fast your brain and fingers can adapt.

 

Yea, I just cannot switch b/t my lei fei and Wolf for some reason as im usually either trying to jackhammer the opponent or go into stances with the opposite players. But for some reason no matter how much i play with another character, I almost never forget any o kage's moves, and since he's my main guy I usually don't have to worry. Just spend a little while in the command trainning menu with w/e character and you'll get right back into their game.

 

I can not switch between Brad and Akira at all anymore and usually pick one of them and stick with at the start of a VS. I seriously need up to an hours gameplay when switching between the two. I just loose all rythm with Brad and the sways and so on after playing abit with Akira. I have no idea why this is as I feel they are quite similar (and my 2 favorite characters and it just doesn't make sense) but I have no problem when switching between, say, Goh and Brad or Akira and Lion. I think, for me, it's less a problem when switching to something completly different actually.

 

Woah !!! Ok Brad and Akira isn't good but Brad and Goh is cool !? Logically you should be experiencing the same rythm and sway issues. Go figure that one out ! I guess it all depends on the person. It must be one of those left brain, right brain thing.

 

Akira and Lei Fei.... A very bad combination imo. Both require intense command input. One of them has to suffer to master the other imo. Sad, because I like them both. But I found it just to hard to keep them equally skillful. Things have change though in the last six months, so maybe I will give it another shot. So for now, my combination of characters is Akira, Brad, Goh, Sarah. Akira requires alot of attention, but because the other three are so straight forward. I find it easy to maintain them at a competitive level.

 

I used to think this was the case in all fighters, but IMO its just relying on the players adaptability. I started playing SC2 and I believed the same thing, you build up parts of your game and work them to your advantage. So if you were using a defensive spacing oriented character you should learn another as a secondary... then came mordak and he pretty much changed my views on everything. The guy changed characters every game like clockwork and ended up being one of the best on the EC.

All you need to do is change with regularity and you can pull it off because you need to create 2 seperate strategies and work them both. What ice-9 is suggesting is to basically use the same strategy and adapt it to another character which is effective but IMO if you find someone who can deal with that well I doubt youll find much more success like that.

Also if you use 2 starkly different play styles you often find new ways to apply your characters... and if you dont think its applicable I play Lion, Akira and Brad and I often find myself getting cought up between them for a couple rounds changing tactics, and thats much better then doing the wrong inputs for 2 games before switching gears completely like I was 2 months ago

You can do anything if you apply yourself enough

 

This is a thread that clearly shows that you are too into this game... lol /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif anyways, I experience the same thing when I play other characters.... I tried to screw punch with lau...... /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

This effect, I think, is simply a result of developing a habitual response to certain situations... imo it's also a sign that you play you character very 'by the book'. I think if you start experimenting with an 'intuitive' style of play then you won't have so much problem with mixing characters... that's just the way I see it anyways...
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

This is a thread that clearly shows that you are too into this game... lol /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif anyways, I experience the same thing when I play other characters.... I tried to screw punch with lau...... /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

This effect, I think, is simply a result of developing a habitual response to certain situations... imo it's also a sign that you play you character very 'by the book'. I think if you start experimenting with an 'intuitive' style of play then you won't have so much problem with mixing characters... that's just the way I see it anyways...
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe this is perfect example of why I don't use a flowchart for EVO. You program yourself to be habitual like srider says. Ask your self how many times you have been in an intense situation with a sub character. But you try to get out of the situation with a move/technique that only your main character can do. Feels kind of silly when you say to yourself, "damn I thought I was using ________!" So when I use my sub characters I try really hard not to apply any techniques from any of the others. I will admit it's hard to do, but if you can pull it off. The results are really good imo.

 

Haha, this reminds me of back when I played 2nd impact. I would play Yun, then go try Marvel Vs. Capcom (or any VS game) for a little, then go back to 2nd Impact and find myself launching my opponent with forward(medium) kick and jumping after them like in an air combo!!

 

I think flowcharts are very important. If you don't have them you won't even know what you "CAN" do in certain situations. Flowcharts are just the choices. How flexibile you apply them is a different thing imo. If you happen to apply the flowcharts more flexibly, it will give your opponent the illusion that you have a more "intuitive" style of play.

 

flowcharts are good but if you restrict yourself to only 3 options in a certain situation you arent maximizing your capabilities. If your opponent has a bad reaction to move X and flowchart option 1 counters it for another setup youll get your chip damage but if you dont realize when to go beyond your flowcharts for damage then your not playing your best. I think some guys like are so flowchart heavy that they are playing the game and not their opponent... some people just dont comprehend poking just to poke and see what happens

 

BINGO....

 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you start experimenting with an 'intuitive' style of play then you won't have so much problem with mixing characters... that's just the way I see it anyways...

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting...wouldn't an "intuitive" type of play be exactly what's responsible for mis-mapping moves/tactics from another character? For me, adaptability is all about concentration and thinking, not intuition and feeling.

It's only when I stop thinking that I begin ing with Kage...hey, it happens! That's why I don't play Lau at all, even though he feels so powerful when I play him.

 

I think that these issues about one character weakening another are player-dependant.. Sure, playing brad might make it more difficult to play Akira etc. But these obstacles can be overcome. It only requires concentration and (or) experience. I play Akira and Lei-Fei both (among others) but I don't really ever get any mixed inputs.. True, that doesn't mean I'm equally good at both, but at least I can play them both.

- ManjiMaru

 

I had problems modifying Lau´s after playing Akira longtime, but after I got used to modification then I had problems with modifying Sgpm, Shrm.
I gave up with Lau after a while, he weakened my Akira play too much...althought using Lau´s made my Dbpm much faster.

 

for my part, as an Akira player, I find that what's most important for me is to make my sub character somewhat low maintenance, and fun. IMO, sticking with one character is probably the best way to get good at the game, but this seems to bore most people. If Akira wasn't my main, I'd probably switch around more as well, but making sure I've got a grip on all his hard stuff at all times is a lot of work, and there's still several things that illude me with regards to consistancy, which means I need more practice.

I've been through a long list of subs since VF4 came out:

Kage (got bored, too easy to win /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Jeffry (got bored, played too much Jeff in VF2/3)
Vanessa (found myself plateauing and doing the same stuff over and over)
Shun (too many easily abused powerful moves in VF4 for me, see above)
Goh (I still play him sometimes, but he actually requires a lot of dedication I feel, and he lacks my favorite thing: combo variety)
Brad (awesome character, a little too high maintenance to play with Aki at the same time)
Wolf (loved doing low throws, but again, short on combos)

now I think I may have found the perfect sub for me: Lion

He's just cheesy enough to be fun without being a hassle, he has a LOT of combo depth, yet his staples are easy to do in a pinch, got a lot of good somewhat abuse-able stuff like sweeps, the catch throw is cool, the eye poke is a blast etc etc. And, I can always get crazy ideas from all the Chibita clips floating around, plus there's something fun about annoying people with all those pokes.

And, Lion is so different in nature than Akira that it makes a nice contrast. I have to figure out how to use somewhat strange combo starters (one doesn't float on normal hit, the other's high and leaves me with my back turned), and a normal elbow, which is interesting.

With regards to the idea of Finite Skill in general, like I said before, I feel it's a saying a lot if you can do all of Akira's 3 hits and his BEST combos. Beyond that, I've never really had any trouble with other characters, whether it's switching between them or performing their commands. While I have noticed that I might hold the Left Kick button thinking it's Guard for the first few minuites on the rare occasion I play Tekken, I've never really had teh kind of problem Jeff mentioned (doing f P,P with Kage type of thing).

Spotlite

 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that these issues about one character weakening another are player-dependant

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think that's very true. My playing style would have different, optimal combinations of characters than another player's. Jacky and Kage are difficult for me to play together effectively, for example, while the combination is not a problem for Myke.

However, some of you are making the argument that with enough time, practice, and patience, any and all character-switching "roadblocks" can be overcome. I.e., in the long-run there is no such thing as not being able to completely master two characters.

I guess I can buy that, though I don't know if I'm willing to experiment with that kind of commitment!

One additional thought--I do have high standards when I speak about playing characters well in a rotation. That is...imagine playing with an arch-rival, using your best character. Now, switch to a different character while your arch-rival continues playing with whatever character he has. Does your second character maintain the same winning rate? If not, one can infer that your switching has incurred a cost.

(Or, your skill with your second character just isn't as good; however, this topic assumes you are able to play your sub-character(s) to equal depth).

P.S. I'm exaggerating the example!