The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

First let me state a few of caveats:

1) IMO VF is the best fighting game on the planet
2) I'm not one of VF top players (I'm very mediocre)
3) I have mastered losing at VF
4) Yes I belong to other fighting game communities(TZ, UFC)

@libertine, with regard to how I reached my conclusion, it was based on real experience, with real players offline. If you remember, my group chiqanshu sponsors and have sponsored for years many many local tournaments. All sizes, and types. VF is always the #1 game, but we usually use Tekken,SC and more recently UFC 2010 as the exhibition. Its at these tournaments that I get a chance to see how young, old, experienced, in-experienced, male, and female players respond to Tekken, vs, VF, vs, SC vs UFC.

I've heard first hand that people think that VF game play is too boring, slow, plain, and that the" characters can't do anything" I've seen people pick up VF for the first time, play a few matches then put it down and go over and pick up Tekken for the first time, and play for hours. People feel that Tekken and SC are more exciting, and that they have more choices for fighters. For some reason people feel Tekken and SC are easier to play, and VF is like watching just a "plain ole fight". I've heard cats that will mash Tekken for hours, say that they don't want to play VF until they've had time to practice.

I've gone so far as to have impromptu interviews with people who come to our tournmanets and ask them why or if they prefer one game over the other.

I know the people I've seen and talked to don't represent everybody, but it has been hundreds of people over the years. So they are at least representative of the ppl that are geographically close to me.

I use the phrase "too realistic" but another way of saying this is "not enough fantasy". If VF had robots, throwable lighting bolts, power ups, cloud attacks, fighting guerillas, the ability to disappear and reappear behind your opponent, fatalities, etc then, it would sell just like tekken and SC.

@Libertine, when ppl like a game, it doesn't need advertising to sell. Word-of-mouth works. There are lots of games out there that have huge followings and the publisher barely does any advertising. VF doesn't put up Tekken numbers, because ppl
don't like it as much as they like Tekken (its just that simple) Tekken has Devil Jin, Kuma, Panda,Azazel, Lisa-the-robot,Nancy-the-robot, Jack-6 who can fly and has arms that extend across the stage. VF just has plain fighters, doing regular "realistic" stuff. Its boring.

On the other hand, the crowd that likes Fight Night Round 4, or
UFC 2010, they don't want kangeroos in the arena, they don't want flying opponents, or robots that can use their body parts as projectiles, Just say no to fighting Pandas and monsters. They want realistic fighting. VF is realistic (or at least believable) fighting. That's why I'm wondering if VF would do better if it were marketed to that crowd. Maybe all that VF would have to do is lower the floating, and minimize the juggles. The sports combat simulation market is bigger (check sales of UFC 2009/2010 and EA's MMA) compared to Tekken + SC + VF.

I am in the MMA fighting community. One of the normal requests
is that THQ and EA add more fighting styles. That's exactly what VF brings to the table(more fighting styles). Right now the big argument is over the fighter rosters. THQ has exclusive rights to UFC which leaves EA in the cold, but so many people like CAF, that it is obvious there is a big market for a generic MMA fighter, one that is not based on real MMA fighters. VF could fit that. That market would not complain about VF "lacking personality", or being too boring, or too plain.


Think about it, for the most part, all of the things that make VF unpopular with one crowd, would actually make it popular with the combat simulation market.


Right now all we have is VF5 (I've only got version B). VF5 did not sell well. For all we know there will be no more releases on consoles because of its poor sales. I don't think
targeting another market would hurt VF sales at all.

Just for a moment be objective. Think about it VF compared to Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Bloody Roar, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, Blaze Blue, KOF. What do they all have that VF doesn't have. They all have power ups, special moves, fantasy fighting styles, animals, magic, robots, flying, fireballs, lighting bolts, mist,water attacks, freezing, burning, shingumi monsters,skeletons,tengu,gadgets, weapons, etc. VF sticks out. It really doesn't belong. It does fit more with UFC 2010, Fight Night Round 4. Conceptually is far closer to those games, than to a Mortal Kombat, or Bloody Roar.

@Libertine, GodEater, I don't know how old you cats are, I'm just hoping that this argument is not to sophisticated or mature. You can disagree with me (which is find, it should be obvious that I like a good argument) But sales figures are sales figures. VF does poorly when marketed to the same group
that wants to see fighting kangeroos and robots. Maybe, just maybe it would do better if it were marketed to people who like
realism and simulation in their fight games.

 

Akai, good to see you still around. Could you be more specific about me exaggerating. While I am guilty of it sometimes, I don't see what you're referring to here. I think I've been pretty straight forward throughout this thread. I won't be offended, what exaggeration?

 

There is no Realism Dilemma

Maybe it would be better if it was marketed, period.

I realize that I've seen one commercial for VF. The thing is, if I walk around in a populated public area, even the grocery store, I will likely see a Tapout logo within 5 or 10 minutes EVERY DAY FOREVER FROM NOW ON FOR THE NEXT TEN YEARS OR MORE. UFC games sell mainly because a whole bunch of people know what UFC is. People buy the game without research or review because it is UFC.

VF requires effort or uncommon luck to even discover it exists.

 

Re: There is no Realism Dilemma

I'm sure the glossy character look didn't do much to sell it to people only seeing it in the commercial(s?).

 

Re: There is no Realism Dilemma

I'm with you on this, but to tell you the truth, I've never seen a Soul Calibur commercial. I believe I saw one or two Tekken 6 commercials during UFC on cable, but nothing that would justify the difference in sales between VF and SC or VF and Tekken. I've never seen DOA or MK commercials for that matter.

Also, I stumbled onto VF4. (I was a Tekken player) Once I played VF4, I was hooked. But I know people that purchased VF 4(new and used) and then traded it in. Soul Calibur IV has over a million units sold, when was the last time you saw a SCIV commercial? Or where is the big Namco support on the web for SCIV? I don't know about XBL, but I can get on PSN and get a ranked or non ranked SCIV match any time of the day, any day of the week.

The truth of the matter is VF is not everyone's cup of tea. Especially if the box art, is directed toward Tekken-type fans.

You know, people do pick things up based on the box art. Its clear who Fight Night Round 4, or EA's MMA is going after. Its also clear who Tekken 6 is targeting (just by the box art). If
VF had a picture of GOH and Brad (in their traditional gear) facing off in one of the ring type stages, that would attract a different market.

As it is, the box art for VF 5 is a little suspect. If you don't know what Virtua Fighter is and you just glance at the box art for VF5 you could walk away with several different notions of what the game is. El-blaze and Eileen could be dancing, Is it some kind of new RPG? What does Virtua mean? Contrast the cover of Tekken 6, UFC 2010, and VF 5.
Kazuya Mishima and Brock Lesner look like they're about to kick some serious ass. On the other hand, El-blaze and Eileen W.T.F?

Give me a realistic Goh in his tradition Gi and Brad in his Kickboxers facing off on the mountain I know that box art might seem trivial, but if that's the only marketing you have, then it better be good. Kazuya Mishima and Brock Lesner do the job, El-blaze and Eileen could be ballet dancing.

Change the box art to reflect Wolf vs Jeffrey, Akira vs Jean,
or Goh vs Brad, Jacky vs Jean, etc. Give them the realistic look that Akira has on VF5's box art, and let-em face off. That would grab the attention of a lot of the combat-sport people. And word of mouth would do the rest. As the box art is now, MMA fighting fans would walk right by it.

@Marlyjay that's kind-a my point, the console fans it has now,are not enough to keep Sega serious about console ports. If changing the marketing focus of the game meant losing a few VF die hards but picking up millions of new players, well do the math... I personally would play VF with an MMA fighting engine. Hell yeah, I would love to see Akira's moves in a MMA context. I would like to see Goh with a real ground game, Lau's throws within a MMA fighting game engine. Yeah, I'd buy that in a minute. In other words, if Sega put out an MMA game today with all of the characters from VF in it, with the same high quality of graphics and character design, hell yeah I'd buy it and so would most of the people on VFDC. Of course it would be a different game, (IMO a better game)

Getting rid of life bars and replacing them with damage and stamina bars. Getting rid of 60 second rounds and going to 3 or 5 minute rounds or 10 minute rounds, Yep, I'd buy it,. Watching AOI stuff an attempted takedown by GOH, hell yeah, I'd buy it. To watch Jeffrey's knee produce a bloodied up Wolf, you bet yo ass I'd buy it. A full blown MMA fighter with all the characters and fighting styles from VF would sell millions of units. Sure, it would no longer be the VF we all know and love, it would be a better VF. Some styles would naturally have good ground games, some would have weak ground games, some wouldn't have a ground game at all, the stand ups, striking, and throws would be FN awesome. It would be the MMA experiment
all over again, captured forever in a video game. I'd buy it and I think VF is the best fighting game on the planet, but I also think that it could be better.

 

My friend, we didn't get the chance to talk much, so there's so much about our gatherings I didn't get the chance to share.

The key phrase is "over the years"

First, we have been sponsoring these tournaments since the release of Tekken 2 on the PS1. We started out with family members and neighborhood blokes, we then started having them
after church, as part of our ministers youth ministry. This was regular ( I mean almost weekly) its not that we have hundreds of people, sometimes as few as four, but often a dozen or so.

Second, I've been at YSU since 1998 as a staff member/student the local chapter of the ACM and IEEE sponsor tournaments at the University 5 or 6 times a year. These tournaments vary, Tekken, VF, SC IV, DOA, etc. I've participated in most of them for last twelve years. One of the things I learned about Universities, is they're in their own worlds. Kent, Akron, YSU,could care less about the international VF or national VF scene, or Tekken scenes. They have their own leaderboards of Chumps and Champs. We could easily have 3 or 4 dozen people at these tournaments several times a year, with each year bringing in new players.


Third, chiquanshu was considering opening somekind of gaming club as a business with big screens and a fat Internet pipe. where members would be guaranteed a nice environment, hardware, and a nice crowd to play with, so we started throwing tournaments at places like Jillians (Where we met you) to test
the waters, to see if we could sustain enough gamers, outside of a church, or University environment, those tournaments have also been going on for years. Again sometimes as few as 5 or 6 , but often as many as a dozen or so, players would participate. Most people find out about our tournaments by flyers we leave at local gamestop,ebgames, or a Jillians.

Fourth, at the release of most of the 3d fighters, Tekken,SC, DOA, and VF we sponsor a mall tournament, and give away a free copy of the new game. we've been doing that since SC II.

So, its been a little more than a decade where we've hosted and sponsored tournaments/gatherings, within the last 5 or so years we've really been considering making it a business. That is why I talk to so many people in so many different circumstances about fighting games. If you've noticed, so many of my posts at VFDC have been probes of sort all designed to help me better
understand various aspects of the fighting game community.

When I say I've talked to hundreds of people about fighting games, TBH thats probably a little on the conservative side. Its definitely not an exaggeration.

We all have our dreams, one that me and my group have been seriously considering (and we still are) is the idea of
a chain of gaming clubs (members only) dedicated to fighting games, where the members pay an annual fee, and in exchange, they get the best video and audio hardware available, the best internet connection money can buy, the latest games, and the oldest games, a nice environment where scrubs arenot allowed,and you hook up with males/females who are just as into fighting games as you are, where there is a hostess, some kind of food and beverage. The clubs would sponsor local tournaments in every city they're in, and 2 national tournaments a year. With the ultimate goal of raising fighting games to the level of a spectator's sport.

Frankly, that's another reason why we chose VF early on, because of its realism, and it was artistic enough to be enjoyed by spectators. Over the years we have had a few tournaments where there were spectators who did not participate, but paid a couple of bucks to watch the matches. So we know the spectator thing works.

So that's the long of the short of it, we would like to be the
Don Kings of fighting video game, where we put competitors in the position to make serious money, and spectators will pay serious money to watch. That's why we are very interested in the realism in fighting games. Is the realism good enough to be entertaining to spectators? and how much would spectators be willing to pay?

This generation of consoles might not be powerful enough to give us the realism we're looking for, but the next generation probably will be. We are gambling on the idea that at some point in the future, people will be willing to pay to see
virtual fighters compete in prize fights. Our dream is to be there to cash in on it. Perhaps its a stupid dream, but the pursuit of it is fun. Along the way I've had the chance to engage with all these wacky cats on VFDC, I've gotten good feedback, bad feedback, outrageous feedback. But all in all it has helped me to understand a little more about what we would be up against, if we were to seriously invest in such a concept.

I think, FNR4, UFC2009/2010,EA's MMA, VF have some very serious potential.

At the small gathering we had, remember I was talking with Maddy (he helped me greatly that day), but if I had more time to talk to both of you, I would have told you the long term plans for our group and got your opinions on Tekken vs DOA vs VF vs SC

Akai there are times when I exaggerate in posts, all in fun, and the exaggerations should be clear to everyone. But this is not one of those times. I am an aficionado of fighting games and have been so since 4D boxing for the P.C. (1991) We're talking almost 20 years here hundreds of people, is very conservative in this instance given our business driven motivation. If you think about it if I only spoke with 10 people a year for 10 years, we'd be at 100. Its been far more than 10 people a year

 

Out of all the agreeing that I can do, I agree with this most.

 

like I posted earlier, look at the box art for VF5 and compare it to Tekken 6 or UFC 2010. Kayuza Mishima and Brock Lesner look like that mean business. On the other hand El-blaze and Eileen could be ballet dancing

 

http://b.imagehost.org/0984/Tekken6heart.jpg

Yes, Kazuya Mishima looks like thats a mean business.

 

Now look at the eileen and el-blaze dance

 

Blaze is about to shadow hammer that bitch

 

Sega's always trying to shove all of their characters in one picture like some family photo:











But the only one that seemed to attract the most and was well put together imo was this:



OG VF4 was close to appealing for some, but VF4E has to be the best by far, and it only has 3 people in it. It's slightly decieving, but still great nonetheless...

 

hey now, the family portraits can work too.

 

Exactly!

If you didn't know what Virtua Fighter was, and you saw VF5 at gamestop, or whatever. Its like W.T.F? Since Sega does no advertising of VF, all that's left is the box art. VF5's box art sux, VF4's box art was also suspect. Evo was okay. Based on box art alone, VF wouldn't sell much.

 

There is no Realism Dilemma

VF5 JP PS3 Box art...




That 3TB art was a disaster.

We're back to marketing.

And there is almost none in the Western World.

This means I'm talking about almost nothing.

Might as well be talking about nothing.