The WINNER is ShinZ!!!

Yeah -- BBS's hold the truth to EVERYTHING! C'mon alucard, you can't single out Japan and say that isolated cases happen here and nowhere else b/c your friend told you.

 

If this is true than when I meet a japanese player I will be sure to pounce the hell off him. Angry players loose concentration which will work against them. At least in the game. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Yes most of the better players do fool around at some point, but they can only afford to do that when their opponents are inferior. Take the 3X stumbling trip for example. ShinZ was able to pull off 3X stumbling trips because his Yomi was dead on or superior that time(and he was leading 2-1 with a ton of life), but you overlooked the fact that his last attack(SPOD) after the 3rd stumbling trip was blocked, and even then, the tenth Dan Kage failed to capitalise.

Eh, so the kage wasn't the greatest. You talk about "you fail to mention the spod was blocked" ... the spod being blocked is a strike in FAVOR of the 'inferior jap' player, not against.

Spod would have lost out to Kage's elbow, the b,f+p+k+g was functional, not style.


oh please! show me how b,f+PKG is 'functional' ... it's slower than even the spod and has worse recovery. He did it purely to show off and set up what's probably his favorite backstagger situation. If we wanted to play 'theory fighter' than he would have used SDE to do the 'ideal move for the situation'.

Depends on which character you are playing and which character you are fighting, aggressive play isn't always the best option.

Bull. You're saying this just to defend your point that the japanese are always-always-always aggressive, but 1. they're not - and 2. even if they are, what is this special matchup you're talking about where aggressive play isn't best?! All the characters have MC-or-throw guessing games that are fairly strong. None of them have a throwing game that's significantly stronger MC tools. That's the way the game is.

Well...now you know, I didn't make this up, thats for sure. My friend's experience in Japan coincides with what I've read in the BBSs. Whether its a typical behaviour or not does not matter,

of course it matters! You're going a stereotype-driven diatribe against the japanese, you're trying to portray them first as "overrated, foolishly aggressive" vf players, then... as if this supports your argument ANYway...you try to make them look like brutish thugs who will jump other players and beat the crap out of them over a stupid game.
All I can say is, you have your evidence for that, and I have gaijinpunch's post as my evidence. Maybe your friend was just being an asshole and got his ass kicked for other reasons eh?

 

Man -- that's DEFINITELY the more plausible answer that I totally missed. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

BTW -- I played against a VERY passive Pai last night. He didn't use a card, but he beat the following of me and my friends:

my 4-dan Lion twice
8-dan Lau (5 times)
6-dan Vanessa a few times
2-dan Aoi 2-times

My friend w/ a 3-dan (down from 5-dan) Vanessa finally abused him, but not after wasting a lot of money.

I don't think this guy made ONE advance... just waited, and then struck, which was quite a pain.

 

GaijinPunch, did he use lots of reversals?
I've often thought that was the best way to use Pai, really passive. There is one Kumite Pai that reverses practically every attack I make. I end up doing low attacks over and over.

 

I'm sure by GaijinPunch's description that the Pai player did not use reverses. He has a "waiting" style, what we usually call "machi." The way it's affective is that you wait for your opponent to whiff or for him to over commit with an attack that can be countered after it is blocked. It's frustrating to fight against a machi player because they will NOT initiate anything, just wait... It's a very affective way of fighting, but not an enjoyable experience IMO.

 

I'm with Yupa -- it sucks, especially with Pai, as everyone I've ever played is agressive, and THEN uses reversals, and I usually get my ass-crack handed to me on a plate...even against low-level Pai's.

This guy didn't use any reversals. I tried playing the same game, but this guy perfected disrupting anything I started (even if I didn't even plan on finishing). Honestly though, the only person I'm half decent with against Pai is Lei Fei, and that's b/c his combos take off so much damage. Half of my game w/ Lion is anticipating that my opponent will quick rise, and he never did... damn it.

 

I think I am the only person who can respect a good machi player...If your being competitive, whatever works. Period.

 

here i link pic.
from front left:
nakojin, shinz, moonsuk
from middle left:
kim,mukky akira
from back left:
kurita,gerilla,muscle sarah

 

more thoughts...

More thoughts...

Has anyone totally overlooked the fact that several people from two nations with some extremely long (and bloody) history, that instead of sitting around and pondering the misinterpretations and oversights of Japanese junior high history texts (yes, this REALLY happened), went out of there way, contacted each other, and said "fuck it -- let's play video games"?

I find it quite amusing that the 'overrated japs' as they're so rudely referred to quite frequently here, not only invited someone that they very well knew might destroy them, but paid for their ticket to be a guest in their country? And at the same time, westerners, some 5000 miles away are the ones arguing about which country is better. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I find it quite amusing that the 'overrated japsas they're so rudely referred to quite frequently here'

<hr></blockquote>

Let's be clear on one thing. Only one poster said it.Let's not get anything else thrown into it.

 

This is an historic week in VF history. I'm glad that Shinz, his brother, and friends were able to make the time to visit Japan. I'm sure that both groups are looking for the next challenge... looking to always improve their game... Shinz has said more than once that he is always learning. Game experience vs. a never played group of excellent players is worth the trip for them, and conversely worth sponsoring the trip for the Japanese players that helped with donating the funds needed.

 

Eh, so the kage wasn't the greatest. You talk about "you fail to mention the spod was blocked" ... the spod being blocked is a strike in FAVOR of the 'inferior jap' player, not against.

Isn't that my point? ShinZ was trying to win with style that time, didn't work, but he still won cause he was playing a 10th Dan Kage that isn't the greatest. You rarely see him trying to be stylish when he is pressured(watch the Wolf clip).
Style is a BIG thing in Japan(read Gaijin's post), even among the lesser players(who really can't afford it, but they do it anyway), there are many Chibitas wannabe, but there can only be 1 or maybe 2 Chibitas, the lesser players(players with worse yomi/rreflexes/etc) should just stick to functional moves IMO.

oh please! show me how b,f+PKG is 'functional' ... it's slower than even the spod and has worse recovery. He did it purely to show off and set up what's probably his favorite backstagger situation. If we wanted to play 'theory fighter' than he would have used SDE to do the 'ideal move for the situation'.

Go watch the clip again, ShinZ was mCed by a non-delayed high riser before he did b,f+p+k+g, do you think any move would have sufficed? Think again.
And frames don't tell you everything about a game, especially in VF4. b,f+p+k+g is a punch(low+high) sabaki, and it has better priority over quite a few other attacks due to its semi-dodge property, ShinZ was probably expecting a fast attack like a punch that time and he sort of got lucky because his move "won" Kage's elbow.

Depends on which character you are playing and which character you are fighting, aggressive play isn't always the best option.

Heh...I'm sure you are aware of this. Pai is a great example, so is Shun and a couple of others.
Your opponent's character matters as well. If your opponent is say Jacky, aggressive play is fine(DTEG covers 3 50+ pt throws, Jacky is left with 2 40 pt throws), its not the case with say Wolf(3 damaging throws), unless you are a robot and you can pull off TTEG consistently of course. If you've played VF4 competitively, you will know that pulling off DTEG consistently in the heat of a battle is tough enough, doing TTEG consistently is almost impossible.

of course it matters! You're going a stereotype-driven diatribe against the japanese, you're trying to portray them first as "overrated, foolishly aggressive" vf players, then...


I said that they are over-rated because some ppl seem to think that Japan automatically has the best players due to better critical mass. Its been proven that they are NOT the best in maximum battle, and now ShinZ and his bro is in Japan yet again...

Going by your overly-simplified logic of critical mass, Brazil should be the best in soccer, and France should never have been voted the best team today, let alone win the World Cup, since almost everybody in Brazil plays soccer(and they have a much bigger population to boot), obviously, other factors are in play here i.e budget for training facilities, good youth programmes, etc...
I'm just suggesting reasons why they might not be the best, you flat out refuse to believe that ShinZ, who lives in a country with way less VFers, no ver.C, can be better.

as if this supports your argument ANYway...you try to make them look like brutish thugs who will jump other players and beat the crap out of them over a stupid game.

What stupid game? The Japanese are insanely passionate about the things they do, VF4 is definitely not just a game to most of them.
Case in point. My friend(who is a Malaysian Chinese, and he has resided in UK, SG, Malaysia and now Japan) knows a couple of Japanese veteran players who hang around in his local arcade. They play with each other pretty often. One day, they invited him to join their team(3on3 tournament), he refused and they ostracised him from then on, reason being he doesn't take the game "seriously" even though he is a good player. WTF?
I've NEVER seen this kind of behaviour in my entire life, and I've been playing fighting games since the inception of SF1.
You might think that VF is just a "stupid game", some ppl certainly don't agree with you.

All I can say is, you have your evidence for that, and I have gaijinpunch's post as my evidence. Maybe your friend was just being an asshole and got his ass kicked for other reasons eh?

What evidence? In fact, some of what Gaijin has said coincides with what I've said i.e little machi players(Pai example), style being a big thing in Japan(Aoi/Kage example), etc...

Explain to me how a person can be an asshole just by playing a video game, the only interaction you have with your opponent is through the GAME, and since most of the machines in Japan are Versus cities, you can't even see your opponents sometimes.
So...how can one be an "asshole" just by playing VF4? Heh...by not attacking when he is winning, or doing multiple soccer boot kicks even after his opponent has been knocked out, or is it because the player isn't aesthetically pleasing to the eye?

Btw, my friend didn't get his ass kicked, he just happen to see someone's ass get kicked due to silly things, and I happen to read about some silly quirks in the BBSs, it might not be conclusive, but my opinion(not that it matters of course) of them certainly isn't the best right now.

 

This is starting to drag on a bit. I think everyone has some good points, but it sounds like we're beating a dog here. I'll close (or try to) w/ a few simple thoughts before going on vacation for two weeks.

1: To Summers -- japs is referred to quite a bit on this board... or I'm hallucinating again.

1: Shinz went to Hokkaido, and played against some 10-dan+ characters and won. Not bad. It appears he didn't play against Kyasao, Chibita, or about 100 other people that hang around Shibuya/Shinjuku that are good.

2: I don't really read enough threads to feel that everyone hypes up the Japanese players, but I'll put it this way. I've gone in against some Tei-oh+ Akira's & Lei Feis, and destroyed them with Shun... a few times in a row (and this is Ver. C, where Shun SUCKS!). Just yetserday, a Meijin Kage destroyed me, about 6 times in a row. Doesn't mean I look down on or up to the race, or think anything better. Lastly on this point -- isn't it easy to say that there are a lot of good Japanese players, since there's so many videos of them floating about the net, and you see them w/ 10,000 wins at the arcade? I think that must have something to do with it.

3: I'd like to see him fair at Sega HiTech Land. Not saying he can't hang, but there's almost ALWAYS high level (above Ha-oh) players in there.... hence, I try to stay away.

 

And u're right.
I have been repeating myself on manyu occasions ..telling posters not to call them 'japs'

But since they have no manners...what can I do?

When I mean 1 person...so far..only one has come here n posted abt Japanese players being overated.

That was the confusion I was trying to clear up

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Explain to me how a person can be an asshole just by playing a video game, the only interaction you have with your opponent is through the GAME, and since most of the machines in Japan are Versus cities, you can't even see your opponents sometimes.

<hr></blockquote>

Wrong....... I can feel them bash the machine when they lose from the other side. Which makes me angry since there is only 1 working machine in the arcade(bugis) most pple usually go to for VF4.

 

3: I'd like to see him fair at Sega HiTech Land. Not saying he can't hang, but there's almost ALWAYS high level (above Ha-oh) players in there.... hence, I try to stay away.

I think most of the guys he played against at Kanispo are emperors(Mukky Akira, Muscle Sarah, AoPai, etc...).

To CreeD:

Sounds like I'm beating the dead horse here as well, but I would like to close with a few points(if you want to continue, you can post in this thread and PM me, or just PM me).

1. Downing Japan.
I've nothing against Japan or Japaneeeeeeeeeeseeee, heck I took up Japanese because I'm interested in their culture.

2. Nationality.
Nationality has got nothing to do with this topic, I refer to Japanese players and Korean players because there is geograhical segregation(of course there is also cultural, language, whatever segregation). Most of us in SG refer to Feixaq and Ice-9(I think) as US players even though they are not born in US and neither are they US citizens, they just happen to play most of their VF games in US, and so their style is mainly developed from matches with their US opponents. I'm sure you would regard Gaijin as a Japanese(as in from Japan) player too, even though he is not Japanese(as in race/nationality). Nationality has got zilch to do with what I'm saying, we just happen to be separated by oceans and seas, don't even try to put words in my mouth.

3. Nature Vs nurture debate.
I'm also not trying to say something stupid like "if you are born a Japanese, you play aggressive crap VF".
Its the nurture part that I'm talking about. Every country has a different way of doing things, and likewise, they prefer different games and they play those games differently, whether its a result of education/culture/media/whatever, I'm not interested.
Myke noted that there is a difference in style between Aussie and SG players, I'm sure he didn't make that up.
What I'm suggesting is that perhaps the Japanese' way of playing VF doesn't make them that invincible, this admittedly is a moot point but I'm entitled to an opinion, no?

 

Well...at least its not crap like <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=tecmo&Number=17451&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=toFU&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=17451>this</a>, heh...talk about manners, its such an irony.

 

Isn't that my point? ShinZ was trying to win with style that time, didn't work, but he still won cause he was playing a 10th Dan Kage that isn't the greatest.

Okay, so the spod didn't work, but I don't see the spod there as style. Doing three stumbling trips to set up the spod is styling, but the spod itself was sheerly practical - you think the opponent won't guard, so you do a move that dishes out 40% or so damage. Nothing dramatic about that. Anyway, we can argue about the five clips all day, but in the end shinz is #1 in korea and quite stylish, and kyasao is number 5 in japan according to a recent post and this is a guy who uses kage's rising knee.

Your response to that is/was:
there can only be 1 or maybe 2 Chibitas, the lesser players(players with worse yomi/rreflexes/etc) should just stick to functional moves IMO.

Even assuming that you're right about style being big in japan, there are benefits to that: namely that the game is more fun and interesting, and as a result more people will play. Maybe style is the reason VF is so much bigger in Japan than almost anywhere else. Also, you aren't living in japan right? Maybe the newbies DO play with strictly functional moves - nobody's gonna make movies of that so it happens every day without anyone really noticing. I don't see how you can generalize about VF in japan without living there or playing a significant percentage
of the players. It's easy to see 100 clips of all-stylish players and get the impression "this is how it is in japan".

Heh...I'm sure you are aware of this. Pai is a great example, so is Shun and a couple of others.

Shun can machi by zipping backwards and drinking a lot, and this is what I see in clips from the japanese.

b,f+p+k+g is a punch(low+high) sabaki, and it has better priority over quite a few other attacks due to its semi-dodge property, ShinZ was probably expecting a fast attack like a punch that time and he sort of got lucky because his move "won" Kage's elbow.

Careful you don't stub your credibility.. I never remembered this move as being a sabaki, and the movelist on this site and virtuaproject confirms that. You must be thinking of the b+PKG inashi/sabaki that sends the opponent on their ass for a free spod. The move might have evaded the elbow, but it's still a high risk and low reward attack, if we're playing Theory Fighter.

I'm just suggesting reasons why they might not be the best, you flat out refuse to believe that ShinZ, who lives in a country with way less VFers, no ver.C, can be better.

How can one player be better than an entire country? My complaint was with your generalization, the lack of specificity. My complaint is with seeing "Korea > Japan" or "Shinz > Japan". I don't feel that the Japanese are overrated when someone calls them great VFers or the best. Unless ShinZ plays for a while in Japan and keeps the highest win percentage over thousands of games, I don't see any need to question it.

it might not be conclusive, but my opinion(not that it matters of course) of them certainly isn't the best right now.

Shouldn't let it affect your opinion of them in all things...

 

Careful you don't stub your credibility.. I never remembered this move as being a sabaki, and the movelist on this site and virtuaproject confirms that. You must be thinking of the b+PKG inashi/sabaki that sends the opponent on their ass for a free spod. The move might have evaded the elbow, but it's still a high risk and low reward attack, if we're playing Theory Fighter.

No, I'm talking about b,f+p+k+g, VirtuaProject needs to update their movelist. I've tested this move myself and this <a target="_blank" href=http://www.joy.hi-ho.ne.jp/d13492/akiranew.htm>site</a> concurs with what I know.