Things I hate about this game

I am one of the biggest vf fans in the world but there are somethings that piss me off about this game.

1) Collision detection is sometimes to horrible. Sometimes when I dodge the computer can attack in the opposite direction and still land the hit. That is very frustrating.

2) I wisht there were more moves to do in the dodge. I hate the fact there is only one set move in the dodge. that freaking sucks.

3)I also wish that in tutorial mode there was a better explanation for the timing of some moves. I can not get out that move with wolf that you chop them over the head and then you throw them. I only did it probably 4 times and the tutorial doesn't help.

 

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Garian said:

1) Collision detection is sometimes to horrible. Sometimes when I dodge the computer can attack in the opposite direction and still land the hit. That is very frustrating.

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Myke says: you're timing it wrong, be more careful and practice more.

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Garian said:

2) I wish there were more moves to do in the dodge. I hate the fact there is only one set move in the dodge. that freaking sucks.

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This is because evade attacks suck (see above). There are much better options, such as evade-throw escape (2, 3, or some times more!) Also if you successfully evade an attack, you can go for a float starter, or throw in retaliation which is MUCH more rewarding (and safer) than an evade attack.

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Garian said:

3)I also wish that in tutorial mode there was a better explanation for the timing of some moves. I can not get out that move with wolf that you chop them over the head and then you throw them. I only did it probably 4 times and the tutorial doesn't help.

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The timing of this move is to hit ++ after + excecutes completely, ie. after wolf's feet are back on the ground. And I wouldn't complain if I were you, Sega has been VERY generous with the tutorials in VF4 and evo. Just think, back in the days of previous VF installments people had to learn this stuff completely on their own!

 

1. On collison detection, I think you talking about moves that Trace( follow you). Certain moves have these propertys, and if you dodge them too early they will still hit you. This might be the problem you are having. I could be wrong

2. Everyone has 1 evade attack because multiple would disbalance the game. And not all dodge attacks suck. Kage and Akira have dodge attacks that are very big parts of there game. Kages in particular is very nasty. But yes some people have crappy dodge attacks like Jeffrey.

You have to understand that VF is made to be balanced not broken, so sometimes it may seem like some things are pointless or they are too few instances(Like why dosent lau have a sabaki ???) but all these are there because of balance.

Thank you /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Oh no! I wish I could record some footage for you. The collision detection can be so bad at times. I am also talking about VF4 for PS2. That could be different from the arcade and Evolution. I also understand that there are tracking moves but, I am talking about being behind or to the side of someone and getting hit with out them touching you. Very frustrating. But I will tell you one thing. Training is better than previous installments, but I would like them to show physicly the timing, but I will take your advice for the timing. At least it isn't as collision plauged as tekken. Oh my god the horrible memories.

 

I have yet to see a fighting game without wacky hit detection on occasion...VF is no exception. When funky things happen in the game or when you clue into the various funky things you can make happen you might come to find it adds a little more flavah to an already spicy dish.

If something really nuts happens, do like Llanfair says & save a replay. I have a replay of LeiFei floating in midair outside the ring on his stage from ver.C...sometimes what you save will be totally useless except for a laugh or two (and a post maybe) but occasionally you'll find something useful or at least stylish like Sarah's summersault hit detection, funky RO over low walls, passing through a downed opponent et cetera. Replays also give you another look at things...often what you thought you saw turns out to be something else entirely & everything proves to be on the up & up. Finally, it helps in reconstructing the crime...if you can give the exact situation (fighters, stage, ring position, actions etc) then it should be duplicatable or at least explained without making shots in the dark.

Also, there are two kinds of dodge. There's a slow dodge which is just an 8way walk & there's an MC dodge which occurs when you evade during some window of your opponent's attack. You can perform an evade attack in either situation though success with ++ after an MC dodge is what you are looking for as your opponent should be recovering from their whiffed move as you hit them. I don't think it is safe to say that evade attacks suck...I see shun's far too often in vids & at the house to agree with this. But you should explore implementing other options as was suggested. If you are at a disadvantage then having evade-throw-escape-guard (E-TEG) & it's cousins (the friskier doubles or trips or...nevermind) might be what the doctor ordered. If you are feeling lucky you can eschew the throw escapes & hope you evaded some big linear onemover (like a knee) & counter with a big move (like a knee) of your own. Evade & a quick towards will often set you in a good offensive position as well & will beat the increasingly popular "I'm gonna wait till after you finish throw escaping & THEN throw you" technique. The point is to mix it up because what works this time might work next time but the time after that you have to be ready with something different unless you wanna get cheeky & beat rock with paper three times running.

I love this game too.

(edit) Damn...two replies whilst I was scribbling. One thing you can do in training is go into slo-mo. Some people find this helps them to get their precision happening. Lau doesn't have sabaki's cause he can attack enough as it is. JEDI!!

 

Man, I think it would be hard to complain about this game. Its done way better than any fighter in existance. I did find one instance where I thought the collision was off. It was when Shun was doing a handstand and got behind him and he did the kicks thing and it hit me. Just didn't seem right to me.

I do have one complaint about VF 4 though, it has made every game I bought, except TTT, THPS4 and Starcraft, a waste of money. There is just no point in playing anything else

 

The funny thing is that the Shun thing happens all the time when you are in back of him. That glitch never seems to fail. Unless it is not a glitch though. Let me give you an example of a glitch or two I keep encountering. I fight aginst sarah and I dodge one of her knee blast, but the second one hits me when I am clearly on her side, so in order to counter this I try to hit her before she gets the second knee out. I think no one will truly believe the frustration on matches I should have won, but these collision flaws snatch them away from me unless I put them on tape. Don't get me wrong though, they don't happen all the time. And, yes, it is true that some people do have great dodge attacks, but I think that all characters should have more options. I think they can make it balanced. It just seems like that part of the game is so limiting. Oh, and thank you for the timing hint. A little patience paid off and I did the wolf move a couple of times in a row. I was doing it way to early, but it is kind of funny how long you have to wait to put in the throw command. By the way a company I am working for willhave some NY VF4Evo tournaments soon. Hard Cash Prizes. Hopefully they will keep their promise. Oh another question. Is the collision detection better in EVO. I only played it a few times and couldn't get the most out of it.

 

the only thing i hate about this game is corruption files i was at conquerer with my a.i kage and it got corrupted just last night everything else is awesme

 

The hit detection on some stuff is overdone, but you know what REALLY will piss you off... when a move that SHOULD hit doesn't. That rarely happens in VF, and I'm glad. If being a tiny bit off-angle caused attacks to whiff, or if short characters could just duck under mid attacks (try to elbow shun after blocking his sweep) you'd be spitting nails.

It usually doesn't affect the outcome of the match one way or the other, ... the exception being when people dodge and eat lei's fully charged arrow punch, which means a monster chunk of life removed. THAT should be fixed.

Alternate dodge attacks would be nice. There used to be 2 per character in VF3, but they were really dull... dodge'n'punch and dodge'n'kick.
Maybe what you're wishing for isn't more dodge attacks, but better ones... you notice how every character's dodge attack is really shitty, statistically? They all come out pretty slowly, they all have awful recovery, etc. That's on purpose, because landing dodge attacks is really easy and they don't want you to abuse it.

If you want variety after your dodges, do a dodge followed by the attack of your choice. Believe it or not a dodge followed by one of your standard attacks can actually be FASTER than your built in dodge attack for some characters. From testing, I know that even the most minor attack.. when dodged early, can be countered with practically whatever you want.

3. Yeah, agreed. What you can't find on the tutorial is findable on this site tho. The timing for that wolf thing by the way is you press f+P+G after wolf has completely recovered. In fact, you press it so late, wolf has time to recover... back dash... THEN warp forward for the throw. Try that as a timing trick... uf+P --> b,b --> f+P+G. Then you'll understand how long you have to delay it. And yes, that means the opponent can get out of it. Some hit throws are guaranteed (which means they usually are done right away) and other hit throws are not (which means there's a sizeable delay between the hit and the throw).

The big exception is jeffry's d+K hit throw... not guaranteed on a normal hit, but on an interrupt it is... even though there's a big delay between the hit and throw.

Good luck, and if you have any questions, you can PM me any time.

 

hahaha I forgot about that handstand thing... that's horrid.
Some other favorites:

Akira's knee hits behind him.
Lei Fei's arrow punch hits very far to his side.
There's a magoja movie of akira's dodge attack vs lei's arrow punch. The dodge attack makes a hit sound but lei fei doesn't get hit. I think he loses life though.
Akira cannot bodycheck kage in the back after f,f+P+K+G. The game just refuses to let it happen.
Knees will occasionally pass through the opponent's body and cause you to end up technically backturned... allowing for a knee, TT attack.
Akira's single jumping kick and lei's uf+K+G scraping off the floor are intentional, but goofy.

 

just to point something out. there have always been moves that have reverse collision built into them (at least since VF2) and that is sometimes cool with me and sometimes not.

Dodging a string of attacks and being at my opponent's back only to eat damage on the last move as it executes away from me sucks. I have an instance of this on tape somewhere and I'll try and dig it up and cap it so people can see what I think Garian is refering to.

Either it is a glitch of collision or a glitch in representation (where the animation is supposed to be correctly tracking and fails to correctly account for position in the polygon world but does accurately code side) but either way I spit on it.

ptui.

That said, Shun's handstand kicks have always hit from behind. That was one of his two options to defeat a deep bodycheck in VF2.

GE

 

Collision detection is not always one hundred percent accurate in this game (or any other game).

There are many complicated factors that contribute to a missed attack that hits:

-The opponent is moving/switching stances/starting a charge attack/jumping/dashing (and crouch dashing):

*Many moves will now "track" the opponent to ensure a hit, but sometimes, due to animation, the game will anticipate the location of the character and apply the actual physical properties and displacement too eary (you will almost never see it late) and contact will occur.

There are several instances allready evident of this, but there are alot more that are possible, the only reason you rarely see them, is that the situation requiring one is so complex, that the actual odds are far to low to qualify it as a significant detriment to the gameplay. Rare is it that you will see a match decided by poor collision detection.

Akira I am pretty sure is the character with the easiest ability to have incorrect collision detection, some ways that I have discovered are:

The double palm (+), which often can hit opponents who are slightly out of range. I am not sure what command Heruru was inputting when he faced against Minami Akira at Kakuto Shinseki II, but if you watch closely (very closely), you will see in the third round of the match, Minami will use the dblplm and it will succesfully connect. But if you examine closer, you will see that the actual contact is questionable, to the point of there being no contact whatsoever. I am currently watching the clip right now, and imho it looks like the move should have fallen short.

The main reason this happened not only has to do with the dblpalm, but the extreme amounts of properties that LeiFei has with his stances that are all factored into collision detection. On many of his moves and stance switches, he will sway his body in one direction, but move his limbs in other. Most of the time the motions are LeiFei moving his body backward, while his leg with extend forward.

I am not sure (could someone check), but when you are in the animation frames for switching stances, your reaction settings are treated as 'neutral' There fore you do not have the ability to block, perform a move from normal or the switched stance, or use the properties of the new stance. An example is:

-LeiFei hitting +++, but getting the animation interupted with any type of . Had the animation completed, and the could have been auto reversed from LeiFei's stance.

-Jacky, using ++ to rotate his footing, a high punch from a good distance can make "contact" with this move, even though it might not have if Jacky was standing neutral, or Jacky could have Pak Sao Knuckled the . (The same goes for Vanessa when switching from Muai Thai to Defensive.


Damn what a long post!

 

re - lei fei switching stance and failing to autoreverse... stance switching is not instantaneous, sega intentionally programmed a small delay in there. In fact, tweaking that delay was one of the changes they made when making evo version B (do a search for version B changes to lei fei). You cannot instantly reverse any punch with u+P+K+G, you need a few frames. You also cannot be in the processes of exiting the stance with guard or d+P+K+G, that nullifies the reversal.

Jacky's switch step is an action and it takes time (there's animation there, his legs aren't switched immediately). During the action he's vulnerable to anything, and cannot reverse anything. He can probably throw escape though.

 

Reading this thread made me remember one wacky glitch that caught all of us by surprise at the nyc event. I was playing Akira against Flood's Goh, and hit him with a Dbpm after he had hopped into the air...it resulted in him being "teleported" back on his feet as if nothing happened...

The replay was saved by someone, so hopefully it will be put up soon.

 

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CreeD said:

re - lei fei switching stance and failing to autoreverse... stance switching is not instantaneous, sega intentionally programmed a small delay in there. In fact, tweaking that delay was one of the changes they made when making evo version B (do a search for version B changes to lei fei). You cannot instantly reverse any punch with u+P+K+G, you need a few frames. You also cannot be in the processes of exiting the stance with guard or d+P+K+G, that nullifies the reversal.

Jacky's switch step is an action and it takes time (there's animation there, his legs aren't switched immediately). During the action he's vulnerable to anything, and cannot reverse anything. He can probably throw escape though.


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This is not what I was getting at, you took the post the wrong way, all I care to point out is the COLLISION DETECTION. I am fully aware of the requirement of the animation of a stance to be complete in order to have its properties active.






And about the Akira dblplm on Goh, there are several more like this when a character jumps into the air. If you can catch a jumping oponent with (I'm not exactly positive so don't fucking flame):

-Either a high or mid kick will do the trick, the kick will "hit" the opponent, but the leg of the striking character will go right through the opponent, this will not work for spinning kicks (such as Lau and Jacky's +).

PS: Ask the Goh player what jump command he had input, if he was attempting an attack, the collision detection would have registered an extended limb, an arm or leg to which an opponent could make contact with. However if he was jumping normally this would indefinately be a glitch.

One thing to take note of, is some characters (does Goh?) have jumping attacks which are done as soon as the character makes contact *with the ground* in which case they are considered in a "high standing position" This might have been the case, but one thing that would have happened though is that the dblplm always knocks the oppoent on thier back. This is all just theory though, I will post more if/when the replay is posted.

^Could develop Evo Version C is someone could exploit it in the arcade.

 

oops, you're right, I failed to read correctly. I'd thought you were stressing that the lack of reversal-ability was a failure of hit detection but now I see you were discussing that between-stances states = neutral states (that's correct I think).

As for other examples of hit detection seeming weird...
yeah, we agree, and it's been around forever. VF has hit boxes. Just like 2D games. There are portions that are hittable, portions that can hit others, and portions that are invincible. The easiest example of an attack completely whiffing but hitting is to get a low float and then do a PPK.

this shows sarah's PPK vs. goh. It's a crappy capture but it's the closest possible frame to when sarah officially connects and you can clearly see about a foot of virtual space between sarah's foot and goh's head: here

 

I think that this game does have the best collision detection, but there are some things in the game they need to work on. I don't buy that move is suppose to track stuff. Obviously it isn't supposed to hit you if you dodge a move. I think some people should stop defending the obvious.The more we voice this the more we may get a tighter game with more acurate and fair wins. It takes a long time to make a game collision problem free. It is very hard work, but it must be done to give us the best gaming experience. By the way, I use wolf a lot. Does anyone have collision problems with him.

 

IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!

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The more we voice this the more we may get a tighter game with more acurate and fair wins.

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I'd like to address the issue of "fairness". Playing any version of VF (or any other game really) you accept the boundaries and rules of the game. You accept the warts & glitches, bugs & idiosyncracies as well. Was Heruru aware of the range of when he got smacked by it from "too far" away? You'd better believe he was. If he dwelled on it at all, I'm sure he was thinking something more like "damn, too close/not far enough" rather than "shit, god came down from heaven and juiced that doublepalm". Sure, it sucks when you are on the wrong end of glitchy or counterintuitive looking stuff, but part of becoming a better player it seems is accepting this as part of the game, adapting & even using it to your advantage wherever possible.

Other than that...I agree that if something really bugs you, you should cap it, post it even & maybe AM2 will fix it for VF5.

Also, maybe someone will get around to making king & two knights force mate against lone king.

 

Re: IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!

I have no problem playing the game and I am damn good at this baby, but I demand a tighter game in the future becasue there is no way in hell I am going to stop playing vf4. I accept the glitches because i am forced to, but I don not have to support them. I think it is good that I am anti glitch because in time people like me will make games better by complaining like little bitches.