Things that hold you back when training VF

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by BK__, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    things that hold you back when training VF.
    (in my oppinion)

    1) mentality.

    using words like nitaku. yomi. okimeze.

    we should all know that they mean.. 2 choice, .. reading
    and wake up game. we're a western community, we should be
    learning the game in our own language.. using our own terms.

    one of the reasons why the tekken community is 10x
    stronger than the vf is because their mentality of
    the west is alot stronger. imho, forget idolizing japan, finding
    your favourate players, and forget paying lots of money
    to fly them over. build your own scene with the game
    from scratch. create the game yourself.

    2) moral vs immoral play.

    we arent robots.

    immoral play comes from learning the definition of
    morals. if you see chibita doing strange things, it's probably
    because he knows the game system already, and is intimidating
    when he does play by the system whenever he feels like it.
    key = learn the rules. break the rules. become shapeless. not clueless.

    3) asking the forum about everything.

    sorry about this one. there is some great information here that
    people post. but there is one thing to remember.. the information
    is given in the moveslist, if you know your character well, you will
    find out everything you need to know just by experimenting.

    im not talking about reading posts about discoveries, i mean asking
    things like "why doesnt this combo work". with a basic mess around
    with the tech roll function in training mode, all becomes clear instantly.
    that mentality should be the key to building your whole game.

    4) over-analysing.

    less thinking, more feeling keeps the flow.
    if you concerntraite on the amazing technical input you
    are about to do, you will miss the retaliation that comes next.

    umm.. thats what i was thinking about on my way
    home today, thats all.

    thanks for reading.
  2. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    One of the reason the tekken community is 10x strong is because they are 10x larger and 10x non logical thinkers.

    As for Chibita knowing the Rules.. The key point is he knows the RULES. Last i checked the Japanese players who they flew in were some of the best and it was more less a treat to themselves. Do you even know how major that was? I honestly doubt you do. While im not trying to bash you in your opinion just understand none of this equates to YOU getting better. Even the best of the best has a idol. I respect the Japanese or Top VF players for what they can do under pressure. I aim to be able to match the level they attained through practice and experience plain and simple.
  3. jinxhand

    jinxhand Well-Known Member

    Man there are Tekken players who idolize jp, and now kr, players. I remember back in 5.0 when I picked up Feng, everybody was looking up vids with Yuu from Team No Respect playing Feng. He was and still is the best Feng player in Japan, too, so I'm pretty sure they're still looking up vids for T6BR.

    Speaking of Tekken still, its easier to "illogical" to a degree. There are more strings to use (and cancel into other strings). There's safer options when poking, even for Raven, who I believe is straight up low tier [can't remember]. Frames are more lenient imo. I mean there are moves you can straight up beat with a throw, and its not because the throw is faster either, and this can be done in an offline match. Hell, you can do this in the arcade even.

    Anyway, "illogical thinking" in Tekken says "don't use 2 lows back to back", because the person can low parry and combo to death. However, when you take a person like ShinZ, who is primarily a VF player, fighting Knee, who is primarily a Tekken player (and one of the best Bryans in the world), you see ShinZ basically murder Knee with primarily a bunch of low pokes [d+3 & d+4] in a Bryan vs Bryan mirror match. I gotta find the vid - I know there's one mirror match where ShinZ got slaughtered, but there was one where Knee got beat with a bunch of lows. Anyway, I'll find the link eventually).

    Also, the western mentality in Tekken isn't stronger than that of western VF. In terms of numbers, yeah you're right in that sense, but real talk, count how many dudes in tournaments who don't main Bob picked him up and used him in tournaments instead of their actual character... If tier whoring is strong, then yeah they are just that. I've been with Paul and Feng since both of their debuts. If Paul or Feng ever get low tier, I'm still taking them to the top, ya know? I watched Evo, and several other tournaments, and it was nothing more than Bob mirror matches (T5DR and T3 were way more diverse imo). I look at a random VF tourney, and even in VF5 ver A, cats were still playing whoever the hell they played with. Sure, there were still tier whores, but alot of those cats got slaughtered, too... This is purely unbiased btw, I'm so anti-fanboi and I'm definitely anti-<insert your favorite player from Asia> meatriding...

    You do need some logic when playing the game obviously. I mean when it comes to frames, you have to know and think some things out in terms of situations and the options that present themselves. On the flipside to that, you need to keep in mind that the opponent may or maynot think logically, or that they might assume the same for you. I mean having a mindgame requires some form of logic right?

    I get that you're basically saying "take risks sometimes", but you can't always take the "PoongKo approach", especially if you don't know the consequences of taking such risks. You also have to be able to read your opponent to some degree. I mean, when I play Jeffry, I don't always use 9K+G in matches, unless I'm taking a chance I know might work (based on my opponent's style of play, etc). If I fail, that could mean a down punch, ground grab, or both.

    I do agree that over-analyzing can hurt the player, but as with most things, you have to exercise control. You're whole fight shouldn't be based on feeling alone, nor should it be one huge algorith of a thought process that you mentally crunch out. You have to learn how to balance both thought and feeling.

    I know this post was all over the place, but I hope you understand what I'm throwing in ya direction.
  4. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    hmm... what can i say guys. explain my oppinion?
    this is the best i can do.

    nice to meet you.

    i play wolf.. i too have my favorite wolf players.

    when i stopped trying to learn from them (hideo for example), i realized that i knew better things he wasnt doing in particular situations.. alot of things infact. for the first time ever i was teaching myself how to play this game. i didnt need idols, i could be my own.

    im not the best, but with this mentality, i feel i could know how to be.

    if i look at chibita as my benckmark, im automatically dissallowing myself to cross beyond him. infact. im also narrowing my path to be just like him. that would make me a pretty mediocure player until i get to his level. and then even a more mediocure player at his level.

    as for tekken, sorry again. i was looking at the UK scene.

    i dont know about anywhere else, but UK has a very stong community, it's something they built on their own. and many foriegners only come to UK to get whooped. they have alot of confidence in their scene, but japan and korea just get automatically applauded with no effort. thats what will hold back your mentallity of becoming strong individuals. (imho)

    if you guys stongly disagree, thats cool.
    im not really going to defend anything here, just throwing it up.

    upon clarification, - what i meant about learning the rules and breaking them is that you can take risks, like kneeing twice when one gets blocked. but if you did that with no knowlege of your situation then it wasnt a risk, it was just normal senseless play. im not saying "take risks". im saying "learn the game by the script, then you know it's dimensions well"

    thanks for reading.
  5. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    Its nice to have communities.

    Not all information is available to a person with the movelist and a training mode. Or it WOULD be IF we had a RECORD MODE. I have come to value VFDC move and framelist a lot more once I started playing other fighting games.
  6. Rodnutz

    Rodnutz Well-Known Member

    I thought BK's original post was awesome and definitely made me bare fruit from thoughts.

    thanks for sharing bro.
  7. Seidon

    Seidon Well-Known Member Content Mgr El Blaze

    There are two great pieces of advice for becoming the best in any given field:

    1: Never give away all your secrets

    There are certain flows and set ups I have with Blaze, Wolf and Jacky that work for me and aren't really floating about here on VFDC. I picked them up through trial, error and experience.

    If you're not learning like this you're not really learning anything. Anyone can just emulate what they watch and throw out set ups they read online. There's a difference between learning and understanding.

    What holds me back when I'm trying to get better is the lack of people to play against. I can get some great sessions in with the folk available to me but without a wide variety of opponents I find it hard to get the motivation to improve myself. I know how to go about improving my game but I just don't have the heart or the time to go through with it.

    When I do have some time to play VF I'd rather get some games in rather than try and shore up my stuff in dojo mode. Thankfully I'm at a point in my development where I can adjust on the fly when I'm playing seriously and try to identify my own, as well as my opponent's weaknesses.

    Come FS I would love to say I'm gonna go all guns blazing to be the best but the truth is I'll probably mill about as a "Top 16" kinda pace and let it wash over me (provided we have at least 16 players). I know I could do better.

    Do I want to do better? Yeah.
    Can I be arsed? Somewhat
    Do I have the time? Not at the moment.

    If I have the time to take it seriously I'll put the time in and smash right past my potential, slapping everyone in the face with my cock as I sail gloriously to the number 1 spot.

    If not I'll be a milestone for someone aiming for the top, even if only for a week.

    What stands in my way to be better is my own approach to the game and it's probably the same for a great deal of others.
  8. KrsJin

    KrsJin Well-Known Member

    These are generals for all games I encounter but are especially true for me in VF it seems:

    -Assuming someone is scrubby if they are playing very abare. Gets in my head and doesn't let me think. Just causes me to make excuses.

    -Going on auto pilot.

    -Not -always- playing with a purpose or thinking.

    -I need to accept that despite not liking it, online is a good tool for practice and just play it without getting upset.
  9. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

  10. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    lets try to think positive.

    are we trying to improve our games based on the competition around us? or improving our game to face a gigantic range of opponents. I would hate to think that ive been playing segaru for the last 4 years and then i cant beat anybody else who plays differently... get what i mean?

    krsjin, i have acouple of solutions that you may or may not agree with.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-Assuming someone is scrubby if they are playing very abare. Gets in my head and doesn't let me think. Just causes me to make excuses.</div></div>

    this is a good test for your defense game, any opponent from scrubby to expert should feel intimidated to attack you. wether is to switch to safe attacking, distance attacking, or sabakis.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-Going on auto pilot.

    -Not -always- playing with a purpose or thinking.</div></div>

    probably the best mentality for playing VF :p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-I need to accept that despite not liking it, online is a good tool for practice and just play it without getting upset.</div></div>

    i think quest mode is a better tool, it will train the defense that you need as the CPU never misses frames or followups, online can. if you can get into your mind the einstein approach that -15 means elbow punishable! (and repeat that logic 600 times a day) you will be a formidabble exicutioner, and deal the most damage on your opponents.

    remember guys that every new discovery, followup, chain, setup is pigeonholed in VF, you could have the best string ever, but then only be....... "in elbow class." ,, or have the best punshier of the centry but only because you are in!....... "knee class".

    so when you think that your opponent wont have an clue what you are doing.. they might even know better than you do.

    thanks for reading.

    p.s thanks rod, just keeping the game alive.
  11. jinxhand

    jinxhand Well-Known Member

    I agree with alot of things mentioned. I guess I'll make my own personal list of things that I feel hold players back from exeeding in VF or any other game for that matter:

    * Top player from (insert region) "bandwagoning"
    - I know alot of people, including myself, are guilty of it at one point and time. It might start off as rooting for a player, but then it turns into relentlessly watching 'X' amount of matches, just to get this style down, or whatever. As mentioned here before, doing this pretty much sets a limit on yourself. Nothing wrong with having a fav player or whatever, but when it becomes "idol worship" per sé, then you only look for the best instead of being the best. This leads to my next point.

    * XCOPYing other players styles
    - I've had numerous conversations with players on this forum and other sites as well about this very same subject. Sure, certain characters are built to have a general playstyle, be it mid/low pokes to throw game, CH setups, string cancel poking to throws, etc. However, one is not going to succeed as a strong fighter if all that person does is hop on Youtube and XCOPY Ryan Hart, Chibita, Honolulu, Myke, JWong, TWP, or even Plague's playstyle. This very thing has plagued (no pun intended, seriously) the United States and other areas in terms of skill level on many different games. Think about this; let's take a look at Jeffry players. Just because someone decided to watch a bunch of matches with Shinbashi Jeffry in it, doesn't mean that you will truly get good. In fact, just like the whole idolizing players, you again put a sort of limit on yourself, because you are only trying to do what Shinbashi Jeffry does, instead of using the fundamentals as a base, and implementing your own style of play whilst tweaking it for perfection. Sure, there are some tricks that people learn from others, but that's not the be-all-end-all to one's game. Look at it this way; what if your opponent was familiar with Shinbashi Jeffry's playstyle and had a specific counter style for it? Then what? Sure you got the fundamentals, but if someone is strong enough to hold it down against the basics, you're screwed... Again, I'm not against watching Youtube vids or whatever, I'm just against cats XCOPYING and thinking that they're so good, and then they get crushed, only to eventually quit the game, or do what I'm about to mention next.

    -I'm pretty sure you know players who simply want to win, and only go for the best characters to do just that. Well, I personally feel that while they might be "good" or "strong" players, its still the wrong way to go about things in the fg scene. It's the rage here in the states, I will say that. I mention the Bob mirror matches, you'll see Hilde vs Sophitia matches, you'll even see alot of the same characters in 3S. I come across so many Weiss players in AH3 that I feel like that's the only character people know how to play with. I play FHD on GGPO, and came across plenty of Karnovs. In any event, top tier characters are viewed here like a trump card, especially in tournaments. Many top players do it, and mid to lower level players try the same as well.

    Now I will say this; I'm not against playing with a top tier character. It's the purpose behind it all. I'd have some respect for someone that tier whores in one game, but truly learned the game from jump, in and out. Most people try to tier whore, and only know 10% of the game, if that. This is what hurts us when we go against other countries. I'll go back to the Kuroda v JWong match. How can a high level player from the states who plays a high level character, get whooped by a jp player who picked a really low tier character? No, its not because he's Japanese- we're kinda on the same playing field in terms of 3S. Kuroda fully understands the game!!! If things were based on tiers alone, JWong should've won-- no Ricky Ortiz should've won because he used Ken. But that wasn't the case either. Learn the game in and out before jumping straight for the high tier characters. Besides, tier lists doesn't mean that this character is unbeatable. Every character is beatable. It's true, and that's apart of my creed when it comes to fighting games.

    When I play NGBC, I use Mr. Big from time to time. I didn't know he was top tier for awhile (he's actually high, not top now), but even if I did, I understood the game system, and how things work. I understood my options from certain situations, and how to fully take advantage of the meter system and combo system, etc. If you want to truly learn the ins and outs, you have to get as many resources as possible-- which leads to my next point.

    * Players not using the plethora of resources avaiable
    - I remember back in '04 (great year OMG!!!), before Youtube, when I was living in Hawaii, and I got a buddy of mine on VF4EVO. He's a solid player in many games, so we ended up being good rivals in this game, and I'd show him all kinds of things pertaining to the game that would help him. Anyway, he picked up Goh, and went through the trials, and all of that and got really good with Goh. Eventually, he got to a point in which all that he learned was somewhat "meaningless" because he felt that there was a problem with stopping 2p. Despite all that I told him about the pros and cons of 2p, he still felt it was "too strong" (we had debates about many fg systems). I even led him to this site, and he looked at maybe 3-4 threads, and that's it. He didn't get into it as much, and wasn't using all the resources available. I even showed him things that can be done off of a successful evade of 2p (I mained Lau, Aoi, and Brad at that time, and my Lau was giving him the most problems). Had he truly went to this site, and went through the threads to learn what others do against certain characters and certain moves, I'm sure he'd definitely would be even stronger. I also don't think he was utilizing all that he had learned in the VF4EVO tutorial either. He did stick with it for awhile, and picked up Vanessa.

    * Lack of a strong will/mindset
    - This works in different ways. The first aspect applies to when one is actually learning the game. How dedicated are you when it comes to mastering ETEG? How dedicated are you when it comes to actually being able to execute Akira's knee while in motion during an actual match, be it from a punish move, or a combo ender? How dedicated are you when it comes to actually utilizing Lei Fei, Vanessa, or some other character's stance effectively? Did you complete the tutorial for your specific character, or did you give up because you can't execute a certain move. Are you gonna stop playing VF because you can't find a way around DMPK and 2p, or are you gonna actually put some time into utilizing yomi, and option select, and figure ways to stop the "nonsense"? Are you gonna stop playing VF because you can't understand the system, or are you gonna take the time out and utilize ALL of the resources available??? How about this: are you gonna ragequit because someone's not "playing the game right?" or are you gonna help that person understand the game and what they can/can't do vs 'X' character???

    The second aspect applies to while you're actually facing up against a person. Are you gonna sweat the match because you're up against a jp player? Are you gonna underestimate someone because their win/loss ratio or rank is low? I've tripped up many a players because my rank in games like DOA2U was a C or C+, or in Tekken because I decided to rank Feng up and I'm at 3rd Dan up against a Sage. This has been said many times and has been utilized even in real wars: "Never underestimate your opponent". I'll add even this to it: "Never overestimate your opponent either". When you underestimate your opponent, you overestimate yourself. When you overestimate your opponent, you underestimate yourself. Simply assume that they're good, and get on with the match. Read your opponent, and adjust accordingly, because they're doing the same to you. Match ends, show good sportsmanship, level up, and come back again for more. Things like these weigh heavy on tournament players at times, and its the very thing that gets them slaughtered. Just look up Noah the Prodigy on Youtube, and see how cats got merked by an 8 year old. Sure, he's got skills, but people assumed because he's 8 that it would be easy breezy. Hell no!!! Don't go easy on no one, unless its merely for training purposes. If not, crush. I don't give a damn if some dad took his kid to play an arcade game, and he's there watching. Merk that fool (lol)!!!

    The third aspect applies to those that are faced with the question of autopiloting vs actually fighting. It's hard not to sometimes, I know. At the same time, you never know when you can get caught with something you didn't expect. Imagine if that were a tournament, and its 1-1, this is the last round of the last match, and loser gets eliminated. Imagine if you had alot of health and the opponent was almost out. You're autopiloting or whatever, and he sets you up with a position where you had to take the throw, or break it, which would lead to a self ringout because of the positioning. You auto-TE, and ringout happens. Guess what??? You just got eliminated, and it was on a big screen (or a small Panasonic tv with vhs capabilities). I wouldn't say go autopilot. One should moreso be both proactive and reactive. The proactive part comes in when trying to be 2+ steps ahead of the opponent. The reactive part comes to play when hit confirming, TE (and all of those other acronyms), and punishing particular moves. There's still some thought required, but not enough to where you have to carry a TI-87+ around.

    * Player Base
    -This is pretty much self explanatory. Some people stop playing because there's no one locally, or online to play against. Others quit because the people that did play ended up quitting for some other game. Some cats have crappy internet connections, too. I'll just say this: Desk (a SF player) has taken the time out to excel at his game of choice, especially in terms of execution. I was told he's in an area with barely any SF players, and perhaps the internet fiasco applies to him too. I'm not sure about the latter part, but I do know that he's taken an ample amount of time to beef his skills up and even assists in finding bugs/glitches. Why can't the VF player base have cats like that, who just break the game down, and do all kinds of great things for the community without making excuses like "there's no one online", or "only the family dog plays VF where I live", etc...? I know it sucks for some, so I'm not totally less understanding, just a bit.

    I know some of these have been mentioned already, but I feel these things hold many people all over the world from truly advancing. I could probably go more indepth, but I think I've done enough for now [​IMG]

    Let's break this stigma, and all level up to new heights, especially when Final Showdown drops!!! I'm sick and tired of Japan, Korea, and Mexico dominating in the games for years on. Let's take it back like we did in 04 for VF, and like we did this year for BB, and I guess MK9 if that counts (jp players did compete in that I believe).
  12. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Love this post... I been trying to take it back to the essense... I remember the day playing in playing arcade trying to beat the Chinese,Korea and few Japaese dudes in sf2, MK2, WH ETC. Thats all i live for as a lil kid. To defeat the so-called higher ups. After Youtube came with combo videos and all that other bullshit.. i knew the FG community would eventual become copy cat.
  13. Seidon

    Seidon Well-Known Member Content Mgr El Blaze

    For the record, Jinx, Desk is English and there's a thriving English scene. He was in and around The UK during the release of SF4 (he even came up to Glasgow at one point). I think he moved overseas though.
  14. Rich

    Rich Active Member

    Desk is a friend of mine irl, and he still lives near Newcastle. He is right in what he has said about not having good local competition, especially in his early years of learning SF. The UK does have lots of players, but not really near us. In truth, it's only the last couple years that a few of us have stepped up enough to make games interesting for him, so nearly all of his skills have come from training. He refuses to play online as a means of training, but he's more sensitive to lag than most.

    He's an incredibly dedicated person, and because of that I think he can be good at anything he wants to be really. His mentality towards training and development is very inspiring and I'm lucky to have him as a local resource to call upon.

    I can body him on VF tho. [​IMG]

    This thread has been a great read, some very interesting posts.
  15. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    Your entire post is excellent, but I point out this. The reason Japanese do so well is because they practise more, and they practise diligently. (In certain games however its good to point out that they always have the latest version of the game available and rest of the world may have got it only later.)

    As tierwhoring example, I guess you could also give the man himself, Daigo picking a hightier character (Yun) in evo2011. The result: 4th place [​IMG]

    My recent bouts playing great players online with 3 bars have given me lot of inspiration to VF. I want to start practising diligently now, and rise to heights I hadn't reached before!
  16. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    As you've suggested he's dabbled in VF in the past i will assume this is a lie [​IMG] . I can definitely body him at VF though. [​IMG]

    I think one thing that hold some people back is the "Win at all costs regardless" mentality if it doesn't involve proper reflection. Regardless of a W or an L, you should always analyse the result. Unless you're playing in a tournament the why is always more important than the result as it is the thing that will make you improve as a player. It's actually more difficult to tell why you won than why you lost.

    And what happens when the reason you are winning is contrary to what will improve you as a player? If you don't care so long as you're winning you'll plateau until you're lucky enough for someone to beat you out of it(I have personal experience of this). If you were really thinking about what you're doing, you'd be more prepared.

    To quote Ryu, "A defeat learned from is more important than an empty victory". However, a victory learned from can be just as good.
  17. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    i forgot one more,

    "thinking too much about other people, and not yourself"

    teir whores, different styles, other people that copy styles, player range, shouldnt ever be holding you back in you... yourself individually becomming strong..... ever.

    anybody remember when arashi played goh in VF4E?
  18. Rich

    Rich Active Member

    He won't play me. He see's the threat I present....

    VF and DoDonPachi are the only things I have over him.

    ...That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
  19. jinxhand

    jinxhand Well-Known Member

    Duly noted. Thanks, I really didn't know too much other than what was told to me. I knew he was up there in the UK somewhere, but I didn't know where specifically. I don't wanna spew out any botched up info though, so thanks.

    You're right, Manjimaru. The Japanese players are strong because they play day and night, and the opportunity to do so is more frequent than here in the states. The island accommodates for that because its practically congested which in terms of finding comp isn't a bad thing.

    There are some games that we get literally at the same time. For instance, either the US or UK should be dominating in SCIV, and even SCV although there's a chance for an arcade release with online capabilities last I checked.

    What's rather interesting to me is that there are some Japanese players trying to dominate in MK9 strangely enough.

    I do think that having a game before any other place helps to some degree, but not all of the time. KOF98 is dominated by both the Chinese and the Latin American communities. Japan is still strong, but not against them in that game, even in 98UM.
  20. TheWorstPlayer

    TheWorstPlayer Well-Known Member

    How many of the top jap players are old heads I wonder? Shit I'm pushing 35 and I just can't play like I used to.

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