Throw condition:

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by nxw0016, Jan 9, 2002.

  1. nxw0016

    nxw0016 Well-Known Member

    Since the throws have been changed drasticly in VF4, it creates a lot of new conditions that are still not clear to the players.

    For example, there was once I was using Kage, opponent using Akira. Kage attempted to throw Akira with Ten Foot Toss, however at the moment I input the command Akira was crouching. So I was thinking "oh shoot I was in trouble". But at the same time my opponent decided to change to standing-guard (probably thinking I was going to hit mid-level), so guess what, he was TFT'ed just as he stood up!

    Another situation: I guess my opponent is going to throw me (which he did) so I did KG (G cancel K), thinking that I could not be thrown while the K is executing (before the G cancelling it), so this way my opponent should have a failed throw animation so I can then throw him back, but there I was after the G cancel, I was thrown!

    The above two conditions to me look like: when throw command is input, you enter the execution time during which there is no effect of throwing, and the throw determination happens after the execution time is over. So at the first condition it seems like my opponent just stood up at the moment my throw execution time is over so he was thrown. In the second condition my G cancel happened right before (or at) the moment my opponent's throw execution time was over so I became standing-guard while the throw really took in effect.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    hey there Nan :)

    Basically, I've had these situations and I would say it's just the result of the execution time of throws.

    However, what I am curious about, that is related to this throw topic is the actual "hit" frames of throws. I'm wondering if it's more than 2 frames, it often feels like it. Sometimes by this example, other times by similar examples. I am also curious about throw classes among characters. How diffferent the throw properties are for each character, how many "exceptions" there are from the rule.

    In addition, I'm curious about certain characters using certain attacks to greatly reduce the execution of throws, not just scoring an advantage and throwing---but actually reducing the execution time of the throw. For example, I am wondering if Aoi's low punch-->f+P+G is actually faster than the equivalent for some characters in terms of the throw alone, or if I'm just mistaking a non-special property of her low punch. Is it a property of her D, f+P+G throw? Maybe this is actually a question of the VF4 throw buffering, which seems to show its effect in the result of mC throws.
     
  3. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    Akira's low kick is prime example. Often enough Vanessa will execute a whiffed low throw animation and I would immediately low kick with Akira (thinking I'm counter-attacking), but would get sucked into the throw (literally). Very much IT situation. Though, I think low throws get more frame time to hit detect IMO in VF4.

    Also, Wolf is subjected to the same punishement as Akira. I've noticed aswell that chars with a natural low follow up to their low kick get priority (i.e. Lau, Lion, Pai, etc.) against the seemingly whiffed low throws.
     
  4. nxw0016

    nxw0016 Well-Known Member

    Hi Chanchai! No... you exposed my name... now I am in trouble, LOL just 100% kidding.

    About the "hit frame" of throws... how many was that in VF3(tb)? The hit frame might have been longer in VF4, but it is really hard to tell and so far I feel it does not make much meaningful difference comparing to that the execution time has made. However that would be interesting to know.

    I am hoping that the execution time and effective range of all throws are the same -- because if not, this would become another subject to study in VF4, while there have already been a lot to learn! But I wouldn't be surprised if it's not the same. Further more, even don't be surprised if AM2 made the execution time of throw related to the distance between you and your opponent!!! (please don't be true)
     
  5. nxw0016

    nxw0016 Well-Known Member

    Misterwhite are you saying Akira is low-thrown while his low-kick command has already been input?
    According to the VF4 guide in this web site, in VF4 there are some attacks that can be thrown during execution time, (while in VF3tb you can never be thrown while executing an attack), however it would be a very scary change if a tiny low-kick becomes low-throwable during execution.

    Are you sure you are low-thrown after the K button is pressed?
    First of all, since you say Vanessa whiffed a low throw, so I assume you were in standing position? If this is the case,
    did you input 2+K (2 = down) for the low kick or did you input 2(hold) then K (trying to crouch first then kick)? If it is the latter you might have been thrown after you crouched and BEFORE you hit K. However if it is the former case then...... scary scary!

    I haven't played Akira in VF4 but so far the characters I played (mainly Kage, couple of times Lau), I haven't found low K being low-thrown during execution.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I think throws have only one hit frame now and a few frames of execution, just like a punch has only one hit frame and a few frames of execution.

    In situations where the opponent was standing and guarding, and we start to throw, and then the throw connects... we take it for granted that we throw a standing defender. It never occurs to us that someone could duck under a throw AFTER the throw starts to come out... and that's fine, because you can't duck a throw once it starts to come out, the throw is still faster than crouching.

    Is it possible to stand up into a throw? Sure, because the person throwing started throw AFTER the other person had already let go of the stick, and is starting to stand up. If you see it a lot and it seems like throws have many hit frames, it's because we've seen throws grab both "almost instantly" vs. a standing defender (it's not instant, but the smooth transition from the execution of the throw to the actual throw animation is mostly seamless) and "late" (When someone stands up into the throw during its execution.)
     
  7. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    Animation started on Aki's low K (about same as low k-g-cancel animation) then got sucked into the throw. The throw was executed prior (too far to throw) and was almost done with whiff animation when I low kicked from a crouching position.
    I surmise my low kick is actually what got me into range to throw. The lk was interrupt thrown by what seemed a recovering low throw whiff.
     
  8. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Whoa wait... Vanessa's low throws are low catch throws, so they actually have a larger hit detection phase than, say Wolf's low throw. If you see Wolf whiff df+P+K+G and you press d+K as Akira, I'm pretty sure Akira will not be low thrown.
     
  9. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I think VF4 throws has much longer hit detection than VF3. I do not remember throwing people during missed throw animation but it happens fairly often now. Especially if you use Vanessa, after a hit knee the oppoonent seems to forced into a bendover animation and if you do a throw, you can see the opponent recovering into your missed throw animation and getting thrown.

    I mean we used to be able to do things like KG to escape throws cuz the missed throw animation do not have hit detection, now it seems to be changed.
     
  10. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Especially if you use Vanessa, after a hit knee the oppoonent seems to forced into a bendover animation and if you do a throw, you can see the opponent recovering into your missed throw animation and getting thrown.

    Again, what I think you're seeing execution frames, not hit frames.
    Pretend the entire reach out and grab animation takes what, 10 frames? For 9 of those nothing at all is happening, and during those nine frames the opponent could go from crouching to standing (or vice versa).. on the TENTH frame, the throw occurs.

    Put another way, if all of the frames were hit frames, then if someone is standing and guarding and akira runs up and does d/f+P+G, he would go straight into the flip animation. Instead though you always see the reach out animation, and then the flip. In some cases this looks pretty unnatural, like seeing sarah reach out with both arms and then suddenly leap into the air and grab with her legs instead (doing a b,f+P+G). Shun's P+G also looks weird... reaching with his arms during the execution time, then spinning around with elbow strikes when the throw finally connects.
     
  11. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    My advice is... u r unlucky... And who says that an input of command denies a throw from your opponent? The cpu will consider the priority of 'frames' between your action with those of your opponents. Your last command is G... not K. K(G) sucks if your opponents don't give a damn to the small details of the movement of your character... Just like fighting a 'beginning' beginner... A beginner will not parry after he/she had done a ... e.g. knee. They just keep bashing the P or K button... Just like KOF...
    Next time, punh throw your opponent... Most of the time it works... unless u abuse this move too 'many' oftens...

    [Believe your intuitions and don't doubt them]
     
  12. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    There's alot of "teleport" animations in VF4 when it comes to throws. Players get sucked in from a relatively "safe" distance or during move execs into a throw animation... And we still dont know for sure how the OS deals with that.
     
  13. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I've never seen a throw that really surprised me when someone caught the other guy. Occasionally I'll see a low throw grab from further than it should because the opponent just whiffed a move that moved them forward.
     
  14. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Again, what I think you're seeing execution frames, not hit frames.
    Pretend the entire reach out and grab animation takes what, 10 frames? For 9 of those nothing at all is happening, and during those nine frames the opponent could go from crouching to standing (or vice versa).. on the TENTH frame, the throw occurs.


    I think it's the other way around, at least that's how I observe what is happening when you "stand up" into a character that is doing a whiff throw/grasping animation and then get thrown. I think there's only 1 frame of execution time, and the duration of the grasping animation (~15 frames???) is all considered the "hit" or "collision detection" phase as we would use the terms with striking attacks. If a character is vulnerable to a high throw (i.e. standing [defender] or dashing or dodging) and is in throw range of the grasping opponent then he gets thrown.

    In VF3 if you were toe-to-toe with a crouching opponent and you hit P+G, you would miss your throw and your opponent could stand up into your grasping arms with no worries. In VF4, if you hit P+G in the same situation, your character will start the grasping animation and if your opponent makes himself vulnerable to thows by standing or trying to dodge while your character is still grasping out he will be thrown. The opponent can attack you (and most likely gets a minor counter bonus) or throw you (if he's able to do a throw from a crouching position) or just stay crouching and blink at you /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif without being thrown by your grasping character.

    Note that if your character does not have a from crouching throw like Lion's or Aoi's FC,f+P+G, you can still do your n+P+G throw while continuing to hold down on the stick.

    Put another way, if all of the frames were hit frames, then if someone is standing and guarding and akira runs up and does d/f+P+G, he would go straight into the flip animation. Instead though you always see the reach out animation, and then the flip. In some cases this looks pretty unnatural, like seeing sarah reach out with both arms and then suddenly leap into the air and grab with her legs instead (doing a b,f+P+G). Shun's P+G also looks weird... reaching with his arms during the execution time, then spinning around with elbow strikes when the throw finally connects.

    But in minor counter situations, say after blocking Jeff's knee or Akira's shoulder ram, when I use Sarah's b,f+P+G I don't remember ever seeing Sarah grasp out first. She goes right from blocking the attack to jumping up and wrapping her legs around Jeff/Akira's neck. Creed, in the examples that you're giving, I believe that the opponent isn't vulnerable to throws in some way as you are hitting P+G, and your character starts the grasping animation. Then, as your opponent makes himself vulnerable to a throw, you see the teleporting into throw that looks kind of hokey for some of the throws as you said. Also, if the opponent is just outside of throw range and you hit P+G and then they inch forward into throw range, you get the very noticeable teleportation as your character zaps to where the opponent is to throw them.
     

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