throw counterable

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by alantan, May 16, 2002.

  1. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I know that it is widely known that moves that recover at -8 are throw-counterable but have anyone really went to test it out in PS2??

    I know that moves that gives +8 on MC do not give you confirmed throws. Why? how about +9? is there any moves that gives confirmed throws? Jacky's neutral reversal,P gives +10 and that is confirmed throw right? So do all moves with +10 frames give confirmed throw?
     
  2. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Akira's knee (-8) is definitely throw counterable... set the AI to do knee, P ad infinitum as an easy test. I'm not sure why an MC jab doesn't guarantee a throw, though, but I'd guess that +9 would be a pretty sure guarantee.
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    There's a difference between throwing your opponent when you've guarded their attack and they're at 8 frames disadvantage (guaranteed), and throwing your opponent because you MC'd them with your attack leaving you with 8 frames advantage (not guaranteed).

    I haven't had time to translate it, but in the Blue Book on p27, there's a paragraph talking about throws. An example shown is Wolf MCing with his Punch, which gives him 11 frames advantage, however, Wolf's immediate throw attempt whiffs. Why? It's because of the Hit Stun. You can't throw the opponent out of Hit Stun, and they go immediately from Hit Stun back to normal state where they can guard, attack, whatever, and as such, the throw is never guaranteed.

    When you block a move that leaves the opponent at 8 or more frames disadvantage, the throw will be guaranteed everytime (if in range that is) because of the fact that attacks can be thrown during the recovery state where the opponent cannot guard, attack, etc.

    Like I mentioned, I haven't translated the entire paragraph properly, but that's my rough interpretation.
     
  4. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I know you cannot throw a hit stun but how about Jacky's neutral reversal,p? That is confirmed throw right?? or not?? I am just wondering if there is a magical frame advantage when you are recovering from hit stun but not be able to attack yet, ie the a specific transition when a throw is guaranteed.

    Maybe the Jacky's reversal makes the opponent recovers weird. It does not look like a normal hit stun.
     
  5. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Jacky's neutral reversal does guarantee a throw. According to Wilson brothers.
     
  6. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    guarantee?

    U can easily reverse the throw...
    but I suppose guarantee here means ' yes..throwing is an option'.

    Sometimes I get confused by the term guaranteed...
    Isn't that supposed to be 100%?
    Not 50% because opponents has the chance to reverse the throw?
     
  7. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Okay, the deal is this:

    1. An MC high punch typically gives +8 to +11 frames advantage.

    2. An MC high punch causes the opponent to snap back briefly for ~2 frames (2f is my approximation)

    3. A regular blocked move that is -8f is *definitely* throw counterable.


    So, what does this all mean, put together?

    1. If you jam on P+G immediately after an MC P, you will whiff because the opponent is briefly in hit stun (snap back)

    2. Light/mid characters generally don't have a guaranteed throw after MC P. Why? Because even though you are +8 or +9, the ~2f snap back means you are really only +6 or +7, so if the opponent jams on PPP, you will get hit out of your throw attempt.

    3. Nonetheless, for light/mid characters, if you're at +6 or +7 (after deducting the 2 frame snapback), and the opponent was busy inputting a string of moves, you're quite likely to land a throw unless the opponent has fast reaction times and enters P, d+P or DTEG. (And this is completely possible, btw -- cf. Napoleon in the Zepp Tokyo tournament movie.)

    4. Wolf and Jeff do indeed have guaranteed throws after MC P. Why? Because they are at +11, so after the snapback, they are effectively +9... still plenty of time (relatively speaking /versus/images/icons/smile.gif) to throw. But, you have to make sure not to throw immediately after MC P, you have to wait for a split second, then throw. Here, df,df+P+G (or 270f+P+G for Wolf) works great because there is a slight delay that "syncs" with the snapback.

    5. For Wolf, GS is guaranteed since it's an 11f catch throw. Snapback doesn't matter here since there's a longer "collision" phase for the throw.
     
  8. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    are you sure you cannot throw hit stun or is this all theory? only thing i know you cant throw is a move in execution phase.
     
  9. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    4. Wolf and Jeff do indeed have guaranteed throws after MC P. Why? Because they are at +11, so after the snapback, they are effectively +9... still plenty of time (relatively speaking ) to throw. But, you have to make sure not to throw immediately after MC P, you have to wait for a split second, then throw. Here, df,df+P+G (or 270f+P+G for Wolf) works great because there is a slight delay that "syncs" with the snapback.

    I'll have to test the delayed throw input. Maybe they mention that in the Blue Book section that I mentioned.

    5. For Wolf, GS is guaranteed since it's an 11f catch throw. Snapback doesn't matter here since there's a longer "collision" phase for the throw.

    I tried this and found that an immediate GS would whiff every time, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing the fast GS either /versus/images/icons/smile.gif So maybe this snap-back is more than 2 frames?
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    guarantee?

    U can easily reverse the throw...
    but I suppose guarantee here means ' yes..throwing is an option'.


    It means throwing is a guaranteed option. That is, there is nothing the opponent can do to prevent being thrown. However, it does not mean that the throw will be successful, because obviously, you can escape the throw.

    So, in a guaranteed throw situation, the opponent is forced to deal with the throw -- they either eat the throw or escape it.
     
  11. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Ya the reversal is confirmed throw situation for VerC. It isn't for VerB.
     
  12. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    That is the problem. There are some moves that guarantee throws. I think Jeffery has a couple. I just read on a Japanese board, 4p for DS vanessa is guarantee throw on counter but you have to dash forward. Never tried yet.
     
  13. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    I will try it for u when my bro wakes up. +20 frame on MC!!!!!!!
     
  14. Morpheus

    Morpheus Well-Known Member

    wah u r very evil, ur bro just wake up n u want 2 test this kind of move on him!? What a day 2 start with...
     
  15. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    b+p(D) MC -> throw = confirmed. need to move a tiny bit forward. It works after a few tries.

    P(MC) -> throw not confirmed...... Tried alot of times. Way to test is have someone to spam punch. and u MC him and try to throw never worked for akira, sarah, wolf. Tried delaying didn't work either..... someone try too thx /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     

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