Throwing in VF4...

Is it me, or is the window to throw much smaller in VF4 than it was in VF3tb. Wolf's catch throws seem to be useless now (although I recall someone saying that Hiro uses them really well in VF4). And his giant swing and KS have catch throw properties, making them hard to connect with as well. Even normal throws seem harder to land now. I will block a move that is supposedly throw counterable, immediately throw, and I get the missed grab animation, while my opponent is going into his next move and I get nailed. I was playing my friend's Kage yesterday and he used a low rising attack after being knocked down. I immediately blocked and did a big bridge bomb. Instead of it connecting, Wolf grabbed air and then ate a standing throw, although his Kage was still in the animation of his low rising attack when the low throw occured. This happened to me countless times when playing people; with standing and low throws (not just catch throws either). I didn't realize this when playing the cpu, only against humans. Anyone else noticed this, or am I crazy????

 

A general rule of thumb is that delayed rising attacks are throw-counterable. Instant rising attacks are not, I think.

If the move is throw-counterable, all you have to do is buffer really early/mash the throw before either of you recover and you'll throw at the earliest possible time.

Eg. Throwing a blocked knee, just input the throw when the opponent is still air-borne from the knee.

 

Is it me, or does throw-counterable seem misleading? The only thing I think are moves like Lion's 2nd meteor punch, where you can be thrown during the execution.

Isn't throw-guaranteed better? C'mon --- gotta fight the system!

 

What about buffering? What I can't seem to get is how to
guard and input throw movements, release guard and hit P+G; the problem
is only certain types of information can be buffered, isn't it? You can't do
BACK, as in b, f P+G? You can do f or d/f, maybe?

Is it not the case that certain characters have more difficulty getting
throws off? I mean, I have NO trouble generally getting off
Lei's throws, or Shun's, but Lau's better throws, not just the simple P+G, are
inaccessible unless following an elbow or punch. But any time I try
to just charge in and throw, there is a whiff. Is this just my lack of skill? Or
the character?

 

Throws take 8 frames to come out and stay effective for 3 frames. I didn't know it was 3 frames until recently. (Sure, I knew it was longer than VF 1, 2 and 3 where it was just for 1 frames.) This is thanks to GP's link. Some guy there is crazy enough to test all the frame stuff.

 

It must be just you. Throw Counterable is a perfectly accurate description. Check out Bungle's counter FAQ from a while back. It has nothing to do with being able to throw during the execution of a move - it has everything to do with countering a blocked attack with a throw. There are moves which leave the opponent at less than 12 frames of recovery. This essentially means that a punch (fastest being 12 frames) would be blocked and thus the move is attack uncounterable. However, since throws execute at at minimum 8 frames, the attack is therefore couterable with a throw.

Now, further on this - are there special circumstances that make certain moves throw counterable even though the stats say different. ie: Akira's SDE is typically regarded as being throw counterable even though it's block advantage leaves Akira at -6. Is it not counterable at all? Or is there a special trait hard-wired into the engine that says a throw can counter? Just curious, as I instinctively throw a blocked SDE and the numbers contradict this as a viable option.

cheers,

 

I'm pretty sure it's me, but that still doesn't explain why Shun
and Lei, two characters with limited throw options (I'm not counting
side throws, since I believe those depend on luck more than anything,
at least in my limited experience), have throws which are easily gotten off, while Lau's
relatively longer list of throws that are easy to input are harder to CONNECT in
relatively the same situation, ie from a crouch-dash after a blocked whatever,
which almost always works for Lei and Shun (forgive the character repetition,
but these are the three I play somewhat consistently).

My question is whether some characters simply have better range and/or quicker throw
motions (animations); is it because Shun has monkey arms that envelop opponents?
Is it a physical difference within the animation, as if the characters were adhering to
some natural laws (monkey arms as opposed to Lau's compact reach), or that the
game desigers determined some characters might need a better throw contact (same as
with those poor hit animations, where sometimes the characters have barely made contact
and there is a full hit effect).

This is not a complaint, but merely my thinking aloud about a noticable difference
in throw ability by certain characters, and how much more work has to put into
throwing with those characters. Or, perhaps this is all coincidence and misreading,
which could definitely be the case too.

 

Maybe the thing about -6 or -7 moves is they seem throw counterable because in order to get out of the throw, akira must attack or have a thoroughly buffered crouch dash. A normal crouch is too slow, a dodge of course gets thrown, you can't backdash fast enough to get out of throw range....

A buffered crouch dash (like if you were thinking m-dbpm afterwards) should in theory get out of it, but if you're playing akira and doing the SDE, you're hoping and watching for the MC and maybe a DJK. An akira who likes the DJK combos may not be thinking m-anything after the SDE, and to recognize it got blocked and then crouch dash on reflex is too slow.

Maybe I've been playing too much theory fighter, but a crouch dash might be a smart thing to buffer after most SDEs. If it hits you double palm and if not you beat a quick throw attempt. On #vfhome the other night there was a lot of talk about good alternative followups to SDE crumple, followups that set up a backstagger. Yoho and m-sgpm were suggested a few times. Knee is also good if you can do it. I like the yoho concept... 35 points and a chance to mess with the TR isn't a bad reward. Being unimaginative, I'd personally just take the DJK for free damage.

 

I did check that FAQ. ISn't a counter hit when you hit someone while they're attacking? Hence, a throw-counterable move (to me, if being literal) is a move that can be intereupted by a throw.

No offense to whoever thought of the terminology, but I'm going to strike this one up as the English translation once again, being strange - right next to crescent.

It seems that there's only selective terminology adopted from the Japnaese. If people can memorize obscure words like Sabaki, I don't see what Nage-kaku and Kaiten are so hard. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Ahhhh, so it's not that the window has literally shrunk(even though it has in a sense). 8 frames of execution time as opposed to the previous VF's 1 frame. That makes sense I guess. You also noted that the motions were a little less forgiving in VF3 than in VF4. I can honestly say I've only noticed that with Wolf's giant swing (the crappy one). In fact, I can remember a few times when I blocked a combo and pressed f, p+g to attempt one of his catch throw variations, and the giant swing came out instead. Even though I never even came close to doing a hcf. Luckily, I rarely ever get the crappy giant swing anymore, as I've practiced enough where the good one (100 dmg) comes out 90% of the time.

I had a much easier time throwing in VF3tb, than I do in VF4, now I know why. As far as not pulling the throws off fast enough; only sometimes this may be the case, because I buffer the majority of my throws from a guard (that's one thing I do well). When I whiff, and just grab air; it must be because I'm throwing after a move that I think is throw counterable and it's deceivingly not. I remember so many times I'd be playing someone in VF3tb when I would block a move or combo and know that my throw was guaranteed (as long as it wasn't escaped /versus/images/icons/wink.gif ). But in VF4, I'm never so certain. I guess I just need to play human players a little more to get a feel for what moves I can throw after and what not. Unfortunately, I only have one person to play (thankfully. he provides me with good comp). There is no VF machine or competition anywhere to be found where I live /versus/images/icons/frown.gif .

 

the terms in common use since VF1 are confusing because they're similar sounding:
minor counter (attack back after the opponent's move is finished)
and
major counter (attack during the opponent's move, and stuff it before it comes out)

people have gotten lazy and started saying counter rather than MC (major) and mC (minor). I sound like a netiquette nazi there, doh. But it's true, these terms used to be used religiously, and now you just see counter meaning either one, or even used to describe a reversal.

Anyway, while I like mC and MC, ... something like 'counter' and 'interrupt' would be a good plain english way to introduce newbies to the ideas.

 

I dun blame GP for being confused though..
Mc in the japanese mooks is referred as 'counter'

I reckoned GP should just stick with his own terminologies...after all, it's a diff place over there.

 

Amen... I thought I new a lot about this game until I came here... there's still a lot of abbreviations I don't know. I was also used to the numbering system, so you could imagine my horror when I saw all this b,d/f,f,f,P+K crap -- very cryptic.

Oh, well -- I'll do my best.

Not only do the JPN words make a bit more sense, the abbreviations are pretty easy to understand when you talk to.... it's just every other part of the language that's phuct.

 

2nd Lion meteor punch is a TIM ( throw interruptable move ). You interrupt the move during its execution phase with a nage.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Introducing new terminology isn't as hard as changing something thats been around for a long time, makes sense, and is generally understood by most of the English speaking community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Along these lines, do you think we can get Ice-9 to use the terms open stance and closed stance? As opposed to parallel and eight? I think it's ridiculously cryptic for VFDC users to associate the japanese character for the number 8 as a description of open stance, no? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

cheers,

 

no, really! it makes sense! he explained it once!
an eight when you lay it sideways looks like an infinity sign.
If you chop off select chunks of the sign, it looks like
0---
---0

Then if you imagine another person standing ahhh fuck it.
I doubt myke can make ice do it, but it'd be cool if he took the hint. I suspect the usage of eight and parallel is strictly an anti-Mr.Bungle maneuver, just like his form-letter-style disclaimer at the beginning of his reports.

I hope jeff doesn't feel like I'm picking on him, I actually liked that report.

 

Oooh... Anal.. you Aussies really know how to spark up a conversation!

For all intents & purposes, I generally know how to say what I know how to do... I don't know the names of a lot of the moves, and their Japanese names as well... pretty hard to read (except for the white peoples moves, which are in katakana) and English translations of them get me nowhere besides here -- I generally stick to the command if I know it.

I think the really hard part is not the translations, but the words that exist in one, and not the other. I *STILL* don't know what a "tame kougeki" is in English, and I've looked. This would be moves that take a long time to wind up, and stagger on hit. IE --
for Vanessa, + for Lion.

Another problem -- I've not been doing Japanese VF4 BBS'ing for a few months, besides that massive stink I brought up at Kyasao's site -- the thing about people using multiple cards. Take a look!
http://www10.big.or.jp/~yac/k/vf_bbs2/wforum.cgi?no=4463&reno=no&oya=4463&mode=msgview&page=0

Anyways, I'll do my best to comply.