tiers?

are their top tiers in virtua fighter 4
if so post em
im new just tryin to get use to the fricken guard button (i play tekken)

 

The top tiers in VF4 are:

First tier: Pai (high above the rest)
Vanessa
Lei Fei

Second tier: Shun Di (you must use his speed to confuse the enemy)
Aoi
Wolf
Kage

Third tier: Sarah.
Fourth tier: Jacky
Worst: Lau, Akira.


Some people are sure to have other opinions, so try clicking search and put in the word "tier" to see what they think. But once you see all of pai's different PPPK and PPPd+K and KPK combos, you'll know why she's ranked number one with a bullet.

 

Good Post CreeD /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

There are no tiers. Every character can defeat any other, it's up to the player to tap their chosen fighter's potential. Everything else in-between is down to insight/creativity (or lack of) and human error. Pick whichever character appeals to you, practice hard and just play the game.

 

Your post is timely (but in the wrong forum). Just the other day after watching Evo movies I wondered, if I had to, how would I tier in Versions B and C? When Version B was out back in December, I did make one big post about how I would have tiered the game at "our level." How did my impressions change since then?

Just to restate a few things:

- There really are no tiers at high levels. You can win with ANY character. That's why there are famous, elite players for every character in Japan. VF really is that balanced. Basically, don't worry about picking and learning a character only to find him/her useless at advanced levels of play. There are no Kumas/Jacks in VF.

- However, at our level (average good, Step 2 or 3, or Step 0.5 in your case), tiers seem to exist. Perhaps that's because we're just not very good, or because there are particularly strong players of certain characters in our areas, etc. whatever.

- I tier only in the "If someone put a gun to my head and I just had to rank characters" sense, for the average good level. A way to think about this is to recreate 13 clones of yourself, each clone "specializing" a character, and all 13 clones fighting each other round robin style. Points are taken and tallied to create tiers.


This is what I think would happen to me:


Version B

Tier 1: Akira, Lau, Shun
Tier 2: Jeffry, Vanessa, Lion, Aoi, Jacky
Tier 3: Kage, Sarah, Wolf, Lei Fei,
Tier 4*: Pai


Version C

Tier 1: Lau, Akira, Jeffry, Sarah
Tier 2: Jacky, Lion, Kage, Vanessa, Pai, Lei Fei, Wolf
Tier 3: Aoi, Shun


Version C is definitely more balanced than B. In Version B, Akira, Lau, and Shun stood above the others (at our level). In Version C, the only character to do that is perhaps Lau, but not by much.

Just IMO, BTW.



* It's closer to "Tier 3.5" than 4. I'm tempted to move Pai up behind Lei.

 

So what did ver B Aoi have that ver C Aoi doesn't? All I ever hear about is Shun getting cornholed from B to C, but nobody talks about Aoi's drop-off; then again, nobody talks much Aoi compared to other characters. Lau is always mentioned getting "depowered" in every version, but he still rips everybody. Let me tell you, I long to play the EVO Shun, simply because he sounds tough again.

As far as tiering, ver C average players, or way below average in my case, I'd say Lau, Lei, Sarah and Jacky are all upper because of the easy damage, while Akira still hovers at the high-end middle because of the difficulty using him, with Jeffrey, Wolf, Kage, and Vanessa middle, and Aoi and Lion lower end with Shun and Pai bringing up the rear. It's just a speculation that that's the order of the winners in Ice-9's tournament.

And off-topic: somebody create a ver C Shun Dojo, for god's sake. My Shun plays like he's got a bucket of horseshit tied around his neck, and that's because I don't know what I'm doing.

 

Thread moved to Junky's...spark some debate and controversy over there. (This topic should either go in Character Training or in Junky's Jungle, not Console).

 

CreeD: Don't quit your daytime job there looking for some money in "tiering" games. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif How can you have Lau & Jacky so far down? Lau & Jacky have been two of the toughest and easiest to learn characters since Ver. A. Lau is a bit dumbed down in Evo now, but has really been 'normalized' if you will.

While I think Ice's tiering is a bit closer, I would never in a million years put Jacky & Lion together, and I wouldn't put Pai in there either. There was a good post on Overweight the other day. "Lion is strong, but there's no 'easy high damage' combo. You've got no , and anything that floats requires a counter hit." The only exception I can think of is + which is really slow.

Also, while Shun was much stronger in Ver B., he still took quite a bit of skill to utilize. The only floater he has that does high damage and doesn't require counter is the Chowan - which is a mid, but does no damage if blocked low. Just lifts up the opponent. The only remotely 'strong' combo he's got is , which requires 8 drinks. Any good player can keep you from drinking and sober you up, quickly.

Akira:
While Akira is definitely hard to use, he can do massive damage. Also, one of the most used combos of his (which is very high damage) is that elbow, which is fast as balls and crumbles on counter. Guarantees a . On top of that, the input is quite simple if memory serves. While I'm not dissing Akira players, there's definitely an easy fall back to get a lot of the opponents bar knocked down.

Ver B Aoi:
The double-stop was not throw counterable, and neither was to my knowledge. On the other hand
+ was made easier to pull off, and + guaranteed a down throw starting in Ver. C.

EVO:
*EVERYONE* has been toughened up with the exception of Lau, Kage, who hasn't really changed that much, and Wolf, who's apparantly weak. Most Wolf players I know are bitching because the knee now requires a counter hit to 100+ damage. (Boo hoo). I have no sympathy, as I was an avid Shun user since Ver. A. I still think Kage could use a bit of dumbing down. He's got a good evasive attack, keeps him out of harms was and does a lot of damage, and of course, the TFT. I still don't think he's an easy character to pick up though, as he can seem stiff to someone that uses a lightweight character.

Jacky, the one that didn't need any beefing up definitely was. Akira will take the #2 spot. Any character that can take off half the bar w/o the wall needs to be dulled down, IMHO.

Now, finally, my suggestions for Evo Ver. B.
Jacky - do something about if for no other fact than that it's boring as shit to fight someone that just dishes out until you stagger. Also, that 3-punch thing that guarantees a pounce on the last hit -- make that throw counterable for fuck's sake. Also make his evasive attack knkock the opponent over on counter.

Vanessa: Do something about sabaki'ing damn near anything in the game. Well, anything high or low. Not sabaki'ing crescent attacks is a start.

Pai: Slow her down or something. Her attacks do little damage, but she seems to float a little to easy. I'm not being biased, as I'm using her as well, and I find it weird that I've played her for a few days, and destroyed a 9-dan Jacky friend of mine twice in a row with her.

Akira: Make his shoulder have a little less priority. I don't think you can counter it w/ anything. Too much.

Goh: Same as above.

Brad: His knee floats to high heaven. I'm having Lau flashbacks.

Lau: Fine the way he is. Still strong, but weaker than Ver. C.

Shun: Make the Chowan not so prioritized, as it destroys a lot of low attacks. however, have it do a bit of damage and give a few frames bonus when it's blocked low.

Aoi: Give her the back, but w/o the guaranteed pounce. Make + not a pounce -- IE, use it like you could in Ver. C.

Lei Fei: Fine

Jeffry: Make him interesting

Sarah: Not bad, but I think some of her moves are a bit bullshit. I think it'd be nicer to have more options of getting out of the flamingo, based on which attack comes. At the moment, the easiest way is to dodge and a quick punch, as that's the only way to grab some frames. I'm particularly biased as a friend of mine is a strictly flamingo-only character.

Wolf: Do something so Wolf players will finally shut up.

Kage: Fine, although I think one of his major headaches should be weakened. Evasive attack, TFT, or . Making float on counter doesn't sound unfair in the least.

 

GP,

I'm just curious why you think Lau is weaker, is that what Lau players are saying?

While I don't play Lau, from what I can tell, he hasn't lost anything; and he has tons of new moves and 2 new throws.

his new d+K, P is a nice move, and that double handed slap with the D, b, f+P command leads to nice combos as Hakushon Lau has swown in videos (I was also suprised to see his back-turned P+K take off a 40 point-ish chunk of damage on counter hit).

Just curious, as Lau seems better to me.

Spotlite

 

>> CreeD: Don't quit your daytime job there looking for some money in "tiering" games.

hey, gai! come here /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

/versus/images/icons/smile.gif *motions as if to whisper into GP's ear*

/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

*and then violently screams...*

IT WAS A JOOOOOOKKKEEEE!!!@!!@!@!@!!!!@!@#!@!@

 

I don't use Lau enough to know the small details, but he's apparantly been toned down. is throw counterable (finally) - that's a huge improvement.

 

Jacky:
You can't take away the elbow, Jacky would just be weakened too much, and since he is the most popular character in Japan, and even Yu states that you have to have one powerful easy to use character in the game, it is unlikely he would ever be toned down to Shun from verB 2 C levels.

I'll admit that the flip punch on the end of + and +P should be throw counterable, it has too good a risk/reward scenario for Jacky.

Personally I'd like to see them tone done the backfist after the +. It is too strong a special high attack, especially canned-comboed into a powerhouse move like +. Either make it not special high so you can d+P interupt ala Lau's +, or take it away like I heard they did in on of the early test Evo's.

Regrads Jackys dodge move, I have nothing against it, I suppose you have to guess well when your are on the receiving end, perhaps make it push you back (out of harms way) like Sarahs. I'd like to see the animation changed or something different so it doesn't look the same as Van or Goh's dodge attack.

Vanessa:
Yeah I saw the matches where Chibita got beaten 5 times ina row, and I though those sabakis need toning down, is this not the case than in Evo? I also think her ~/+ have a bit to much priority, heck it's like she has 3 dodge moves, I'd like to see them toned downed in some way (I expect V players to react agrily to that suggestion /versus/images/icons/grin.gif )

Pai:
I think she needed powering up and I'm glad to see that she has been in Evo. I agree that maybe she is a bit too light, but then she is a tiny Japanese girl, what are they gonna do, Put lead weights in her panties?

Akira:
I agree with making shoulder have less priority, I personally think he should be forced to use the Knee or Yoho more for floats, but I hear that is the case in Evo. I think making the SinglePalm more counterable would be good. It leaves him to many options after it is blocked or hits, and it has too much range. If you are gonna totally remove range moves from some characters (like Kage's old +) than why leave Akira with + and +P? It just makes his run-away machi type game too strong.

Goh:
Don't know aything about this Jin wardrobe copying mofo, so I ain't gonna comment, I like his fight style though, much better than that Brad fella who just looks like a Dead Or Alive eject who accidentally walked into a VF brawl /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

Lau:
Just seems like he has too many good moves. He already had an awesome arsenal at his disposal, and then they give him a shed-load of new moves. Kinda like giving Jet-Li and Termintor like exo-skeleton...and then putting him in a tank.

Shun:
He is hard to use so I think he should have a good range of moves, sounds like in Evo he is back to being a powerful old man, a good thing I say.

Aoi:
Hmm I heard Aoi has had a good overhaul and she is better than any previous versions of VF4, but yeah I think taking away was a bit harsh. It's not a powerhouse move IMO.

Lei Fei:
I'd agree, I think he's a middle tier character in average hands, not too powerful, but not too weak either.

Jeffry:
Does Knee still float on normal hit? If so than he's too strong. But I love his new animations. Perhaps make + less range and a high hit, this one Daioh Jeffry was creaming people with machi play that was about 99% back-dash + - +.

Sarah:
She looks strong now, I always found Sarahs VF play style 'dull', doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Wolf:
Well he's still got the shoulder right? I do agree he is weak compared to the other heavy Jeffry, but don't give him back the knee!

Kage:
Dodge move has been toned down on our Evo test version, but this may not be the case in the final Evo. With regrads to toning down the TFT, well it's the weakest it's ever been IMO. Regards +, well it executes in something like 23frames so it is slow and only has real priority if you guess a straight high attack is coming. I think Kage needs it otherwise he doesn't have a decent ground floater, the new chop isn't strong enough to warrant toning down the + IMO. Personally I'd like something to be done about the + sabaki properties. I think it is one of the only sabakis that gives the opponent a guaranteed advantage so whats the point? I guess a low crecent for example and do it, opponent gets sabaki and then gives me a MC hit (ala Knee) guaranteed before the painfully slow kick animation comes out. Why not make it similar to Akiras +++ sabaki where the opponent falls to the floor, at least allowing for the kicks to connect. The move is very slow and risky, and you have NO reward if you do it. I'd also like + to be a mid hit. The block stagger doesn't guarantee nothing, I just think it would make the move more useful and what be another way to set up the [BT] ++

I second you on the 'too much pride to use Jacky!' /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif

Peace

 

Very well said. Glad to see you like my knew tag line. Lemme jsut throw a couple more points in:

Jacky:
I know someone has to be strong in the game, but it just gets old. I likely wouldn't think it as much if people would lose, and admit it. Not lose, then get out there Jacky -- happens way too much. I used to lose and get out my Shun, even in Ver. C.

Anywyas, the first test of Evo Jacky was missing and it was paradise. Guess AM2 was just trying to appease us at the tests. It wasn't like he was a weanie without it. It's just ,,+ makes for extremely boring play.

Vanessa:
Sabaki properties are the same, as are the evasive attacks, which get old. I'll have a video of it in action by the weekend... a few probably.

Pai:
She's Chinese actually. I don't see why people say she's so weak -- she's so agile! Has all level crescents, low throws, and nice reversals. She's got it all.

Akira:
Akira's got some new stuff, so it's aesthetically pleasing, but you generally play him the same way, if you know what I mean.

Jeff:
Yeaup -- knee floats on normal. Dodge, Knee, low punch, elbow elbow -- 70 points.

Sarah:
Always been strong, and probably just as strong now.

Wolf:
I agree.

Kage:
I really should use him more so I can really see how it goes. A really good Kage can be really tricky. I think he'll take a lot more time to study than Pai, which is why I'm sticking w/ her for my next character. Also RE-learning Vanessa.

 

You think you pissed people off with Shun, you're really going to be a pain in the ass with Pai. Her little reversals that do like miniature damage but not only stop attacks but sets up that double mid-air kick thing...
enough to make you want to give up on the spot. Pai is demoralizing to me, even worse than some of the big dogs of the game...I guess like everyone else, I look down my nose at Pai and think she shouldn't be as strong as she is, even in ver C. She's very hot now, also, with those glasses in EVO. Love a woman with glasses, man.

Great tag line , Gaijin...I think my fascination with Lau is bad enough, but I won't whore to be a Jacky under any circumstance...well, only if they got rid of his voice, weakened him to ver C Shun level, and gave him better items, like maybe a full spacesuit to hide his man-womanishness. His items make him look like a Harley Davison butt-lover in ver C. Can't handle it.

 

I dun mean to butt in here

But the way I see it..JAcky is very much like Ryu/Ken/Iori/Kyo

In the sense that, he's can be mistaken as 'boring to play..easy to play..easy combo..too good..muteki.. etc etc etc '.

Sure...like the other 2D characters, Jacky is extremely popular worldwide. There are a wide variety of ways to use Jacky. Some play him in a very defensive manner. And yes, indeed..it can be kinda boring to play against someone who is very defensive and more importantly, being very damn good at it. ( and all the power to them too!)

Like wise, I understand ur frustrations when it comes to ppl pulling out Jacky after they lose to u. I've had similar experiences as well. It's bad enuff the sticks at the arcade in Melbourne ARE VERY FLICKING BAD...Ver B Jacky/ worse yet...it's running at 50hz...( I usually avoid playing there..unless I have another hr to burn before my class starts. I am ver C exclusive n for fun..I play only Kage at the arcade). So, try n imagine the pain I have to go through...

Yet...the fact remains that it is very easy to mistake losing to a good player as ' I lost to Jacky'.

Despite the heaps of complaints abt Lau being a pppk or too godly powerful character, even kyasao (in his online dairy) mentioned that u can tell how good the lau player is by the way he controls Lau.

U don't hear anyone complaining abt Lau being over-powered when they lose to Edo, do u?

No a single soul said Jacky was too good/boring/ " it's Jacky" when Arashi literally steam rolled kyasao, bbm n wolfie(?) in the ps2 editor's cup. ( picture this, bad enuff there's Arashi, but his partners in crime are goro n mask!)

Therein lies my question.

Why is it that the world can accept losing to Edo Lau n Arashi's Jacky..yet bitch n get all upset at losing to lower dan Jacky n Lau players?

Just like how Ken is ranked #2 in 3S...yet no one complains abt losing to Daigo's Ken?

P.S : aye..even though Lau's elbow palm is finally throw counterable...it's still a fun bonus really..after all, u could always crouch n throw him or Mc him while the palm whiffs in Ver C ^__^
But I agree..it does make our lives so much easier, just like how shun was powered down in Ver C hehehe. ( just mucking around GP /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif )

Ah, at least, it appears for the time being that everyone is powered up apart from Kage /versus/images/icons/frown.gif and wolf /versus/images/icons/frown.gif
( leave my characters alone plz Sega)

 

I don't know enough to really reply here, but those top-level guys playing
Lau and Jacky are up against other top-level guys, so the field evens out
considerably up there...as opposed to your more average or semi-proficient players,
where a Jacky or Lau-user becomes advantaged due to those characters' natural
damage-inducers which are easier to access for the less-than-Chibita player. A 2-Dan
Lau in ver C has the potential to clean a 3-dan Lion's clock, say, because ordinary Laus will
beat ordinary Lions simply due to the damage each can produce in mediocre hands. Pro
players have learned their characters, and their opp., to the point where the characters become
less uneven; though Jacky and Lau STILL have an advantage, at least in ver C...it's right
to complain about them until something is done to bring them back to earth. Excellent players are heralded regardless
of what character they play, because they play other excellent players. This isn't your brother who plays
Jacky down at the arcade and has a 98 win %. Chibita gets more props than usual because he uses a gay
high school boy as his main character. You gotta love a guy who makes Lion seem cool.

 

Good points. I gave up on 2D fighters long ago though. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
Must be difficult in Aus. The few places I've played VF4 outside of Japan had crap sticks/button arrangmenets, except for Paris. That was the only exception. On a non-strength issue, I think Jacky would've been better as an asian guy. I think Jan Lee from DOA is way cooler.

Also one other thing -- are you sure that Arashi was the on that destroyed the C. Chaps guys in that tournament? The reason I ask, is that in Bay Cup Area 3, you can see Goro's Pai, and the rank is Kami-sama, which was the gift they got for winning the tournament. Arashi is in the same tournament with his Jacky, but has a normal ranking.

Also, don't get too used to your characters... I don't think any of mine have gone unchanged for long. The only one that wasn't raped too bad from Ver. B to C was Lion. Honestly, I picked up Vanessa, Lei & Aoi in Ver. C b/c Shun got so damn weak -- needed to get some wins for a change!

 

yup...pretty damn sure that was Arashi.
Hmmm..i dun recall seeing Goro's kami sama rank in vol 3...as I recalled...I saw it in either vol 4 or 5.

Anyway

Confusions will arise though..as u can see in vol 3 BT tournament..susukino is ranked at ni-dan...yet in my mind..wasn't susukino wolf ( the lau player) ranked way way way way way up there? Unless susukino and susukino wolf are two different players? ( just so happens both of them pick lau?)

All I can say is...STICK TO ONE CARD PPL! ^__^


BTW, I'm pretty glad that Jacky dun scream like Jann Lee ^_^

I'm only mucking around with the 'dun touch my characters' statement. In fact, I welcome change anyday...keeps the game fresh n exciting.

To lau fists : I think ppl should get off the idea of ' this character is stronger...thus naturally, easier for him to win' at lower level gaming.

In fact, Lau n Jacky at the hands of a low level player...is rather simplistic and never the pain that they are at high lvl.

In fact, the same applies to all characters.

And b4 u go on...let me remind you, Jacky is not 'unfair' in the way u might assume him to be. Powerful..yes!
Definitely not unfair.

U can check the Ver C frame stats to begin with. Then you might understand why good Jacky players are to be feared n respected. It's just the stigma of being a Jacky player I guess. After all, egos will clash n ppl seem to not want to admit they lost to a better player unless it's Arashi or Mask or Neotower etc etc etc.

Maybe when VF5 comes along..they should just scrap the list of current characters n give us a whole new lists...that way, we won't have to endure ppl screaming abt Lau being unfair or Jacky being too strong or TFT being cheap etc etc etc

incidentally, jeffry's simple knee, kkp takes off way more damage than Jacky's bread n butter moves....U dun hear anyone complaining abt it..do u ?

Maybe it's because of the misconception that some ppl have..thinking that Jeff is weak..thus it is ok for him to have such a easy damaging combo.

If so, well what a misconception it is!

 

Log into my site, check out the BACVol3 videos. Goro has the ranking. Arashi doesn't. And yes, Susukino is ranked up there, but has a 2-dan card. Don't know why he uses two cards. Maybe he doesn't want to get his rank knocked down. I've made multiple posts about this, so no need to drill it.

-I like Jan Lee's screaming. Annoying yes, but there's something about it I like.

-I've bitched about Jeffry's knee a few times... not really enough Jeff's around for it to be a problem. I've never thought of Jeff as weak. In fact, I've always feared him way more than Wolf.

-I can't say I disrespect a good Jacky player. A good PLAYER that happens to use Jacky, yes, respect, but there are a few Jacky-only players, that I think are missing the boat in my humble opinion. I know one guy that has Jacky as his main character. There was another Jacky there at the same dan-level. I asked him if he was going to play. "No way. Not against Jacky" was his reply. (???)

 

I remember seeing Arashi's name in the clip

What I don't remember is seeing Goro's kami sama rank in Vol 3 ( since I got all of em...I shall sit down n watch thru vol 3 again) Strangely enuff, I am remember seeing his godly ranking in vol 4....

What I do remember is..mask in vol 3 did not have kami sama rank.

So..*shrugs* who knows?
Anyway...I still like the rank "Toshin" best.
Is that still in Evo?