To exceptional Pai players

I have learned to nearly master Pai on my own even though I used the simpliest combos she has in my arsenal. I also have an extremely hard time with her master combos and I found easier ones I could do and it got me to matches versus the best Quest mode characters and I have beaten most of them but I rarely dominate them but at least I compete with them the whole time. I look at the replays and see that the players in those replays do just about everything I do and nothing they do seem to be beyond me.

The big difference I see is that the Pai in the replays alway turn the enemies around or stun them and always got hits in after that. Playing the AI I can never get it to connect against hard foes even when I hear that UF K,K automatically connects after a B,F P+G or F, B P+G and every throw she has like it no matter what only to find that the game stopped it every time. I need to know what makes a master Pai players great and separates them from an above average Pai player like me. She don't seem to have very many moves that really make a big difference aside from her hold D, F P pop up move what am I missing and can a UF K,K really link after one of her turn around or stunning throws automatically like I hear?

 

I am nowhere near a master Pai player but I can answer few of your questions.

The kicks you are referring to are called the single and double swallow kick. , respectively. Of the two throws, +, gives a 10 frame advantage (+10) while the other throw, +, gives a smaller 7 frame advantage(+7). The single swallow kick executes in 13 frames. Technically it is not guaranteed after the + because you are putting a 13 frame attack (with perfect timing) against a 10 frame advantage.

However people are incapable of using perfect timing consistently, so it would work better against a person. The computer is able to respond to quicker than a human being so it is better able to apply perfect timing after deep disadvantages and it is able to exact struggle. So a swallow kick is not going to work every time against the computer at high levels.

I would suggest....

1) Hit-check the single swallow before you do the double swallow. In other words make sure the connects before you do the second . That will stop you from being at a severe disadvantage whenever you don't connect. Whereas a blocked only leaves you at -4 frames.

2) Mix your follow-up attacks. Anything in VF can be stopped if you know its coming. Swallow kick are good but they are not without risk.

3) Use other thows regularly. I am especially thinking + and +. + creates a stagger (very big advantage) and + gives guaranteed low-throws. For some reason the computer never enters low-throw escapes.

Other useful moves

floats on normal, throw counterable on guard. but you probably know that already.

fastest in game. +1 on guard, +3 on normal hit.

Chop - very, very useful. I had severly underrated its usefulness until I read this. I recommend you read it too. Ice-9 is a much better player than I am.

 

Actually, is guaranteed after + (and + as well), because it takes 6 frames to turn around and block in VF4. The reason isn't connecting is because it overlaps the command for jumping, so if you hold for longer than a few frames, the move will come out slower than it can (once you release , the first few frames of your jump are cancelled into .

Try holding and mashing (tapping the button lightly). This will ensure you are not holding for too long. Also, nothing is guaranteed after +. Speed-wise can connect, but it can be crouched if the opponent holds .

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Ice-9 wrote:

Swipe :: f+P :: Middle :: 14 ****

Pai's main, up-close, harrassment saftey attack. Pai is at least even with the opponent if the swipe is blocked (if not at a slight advantage). The kind of move that the opponent likes to ignore, even when they get hit.

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lmao, is -3 on guard, not even or advantage. But yeah it's still really good because if you backdash right away, it's very hard for someone to throw you (they have to do it immediately). If you set the pace fast (which as a Pai player you should), that move is very useful to setup all kinds of things.

 

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Ice-9 also wrote:

...please keep in mind that this Dojo was written when frame statistics were not published. Be on the lookout for an upgraded Version C Dojo soon, hopefully. ice-9, 6/2/02

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Dandy_J said:

Try holding and mashing (tapping the button lightly). This will ensure you are not holding for too long. Also, nothing is guaranteed after +. Speed-wise can connect, but it can be crouched if the opponent holds .


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Can't you input the Swallow kick as +? Sort of how the mule kick has 2 ways of doing it. I might be talking out of my ass though.

 

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Cuz said:

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Dandy_J said:

Try holding and mashing (tapping the button lightly). This will ensure you are not holding for too long. Also, nothing is guaranteed after +. Speed-wise can connect, but it can be crouched if the opponent holds .


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Can't you input the Swallow kick as +? Sort of how the mule kick has 2 ways of doing it. I might be talking out of my ass though.

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No.

 

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Darrius_Cole said:

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Cuz said:

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Dandy_J said:

Try holding and mashing (tapping the button lightly). This will ensure you are not holding for too long. Also, nothing is guaranteed after +. Speed-wise can connect, but it can be crouched if the opponent holds .


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Can't you input the Swallow kick as +? Sort of how the mule kick has 2 ways of doing it. I might be talking out of my ass though.

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No.

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+ does her forward flip kick that is part of a 2 part kick that ends with a back flip but I found a few tricks that the game won't mention but I know will work against any foe. If you knock them down and expect a low recovery kick you can do her + and it will leap over the low kick and pop them up instantly, I discovered this trick by accident and use it when I am cornered and I suspect someone might try to use a low leg sweep recovery if I knock them down.

I have am also practicing using the + as the game recovers with their recovery kick low or mid back up just enough to make them whiff and slam them with the fully charged move immediately after they miss causing a stomach collapse and get the free combo in afterwards. It is all about spacing and I am working at it in free training. I never actually got this to work yet not as I hoped it would but I think it might work

Another trick I found works on the AI to disrupt their timing offensively is to stay on the ground and not try to get up right away after you are knocked down. The game can anticipate recovery attacks but if you stay down and force them to stop and watch them as they block high and low waiting for you to do something you can get free throw attempts on them. All it takes is some disipline and patience and Pai can get a low throw real easy if they duck too long or you can get a high throw if they anticipated the low throw. This is how I get many of my throws on the game and if I use recovery attacks every so often they won't know what is coming next but if the enemy will actively hit me on the ground it won't work but the AI won't do this much making it a great way to turn the tide in your favor against an overaggressive AI player

These are just a few tricks I found through trial and error that helped me on a few occassions mainly the + to beat a low recovery kick and properly timed this move might work for other low attacks as well but its slow attack speed make it a challenge but it is one of the many things I am working on to better my game by trail and error.

 

Thanks Talis. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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+ does her forward flip kick that is part of a 2 part kick that ends with a back flip but I found a few tricks that the game won't mention but I know will work against any foe. If you knock them down and expect a low recovery kick you can do her + and it will leap over the low kick and pop them up instantly, I discovered this trick by accident and use it when I am cornered and I suspect someone might try to use a low leg sweep recovery if I knock them down.


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That might be good against a human you know that always uses low rising attacks and it's decent risk to reward even if you just have a hunch but there are better options if you bait, dash back and dash back in with a heel kick or [p] or [k]+[g] from range, and another safe option is just fuzzy and make your opponent guess between throw-low throw/ mid-low circular/ launcher/ and maybe [p] into bokutai would be a nice one to throw in here sparingly.

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I have am also practicing using the + as the game recovers with their recovery kick low or mid back up just enough to make them whiff and slam them with the fully charged move immediately after they miss causing a stomach collapse and get the free combo in afterwards. It is all about spacing and I am working at it in free training. I never actually got this to work yet not as I hoped it would but I think it might work


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Timing notwithstanding (I don't really play as Pai but I think you might have to input the command well before your opponent even starts the rising), I don't think it'll be in range of most whiffed risings and even if it is, it won't work against any non-poor opponents unless they're caught really off guard or they're really off their game. You'd be better off sticking with the uncharged version of this - free heel kick combo on ch (or if there's not there should be free swallow kicks) - if you want to use this move to punish whiffed risings but I've never seen anyone use it then either so you probably can't use either version of this move as one of your main options in those situations.

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Another trick I found works on the AI to disrupt their timing offensively is to stay on the ground and not try to get up right away after you are knocked down. The game can anticipate recovery attacks but if you stay down and force them to stop and watch them as they block high and low waiting for you to do something you can get free throw attempts on them. All it takes is some disipline and patience and Pai can get a low throw real easy if they duck too long or you can get a high throw if they anticipated the low throw. This is how I get many of my throws on the game and if I use recovery attacks every so often they won't know what is coming next but if the enemy will actively hit me on the ground it won't work but the AI won't do this much making it a great way to turn the tide in your favor against an overaggressive AI player.


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I haven't played VF in a while but it seems like this'll only really work in beginner mode/the non fuzzying standard arcades. Also you'll be eating a lot of big counters if you try this on a human. Another thing: I don't know how it is now, but I remember a lot of flames during threads in the past when the topic was about how to exploit quest mode ai's - generally this site is more about the competitive play aspect. Just a heads up.

 

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Warm said:

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+ does her forward flip kick that is part of a 2 part kick that ends with a back flip but I found a few tricks that the game won't mention but I know will work against any foe. If you knock them down and expect a low recovery kick you can do her + and it will leap over the low kick and pop them up instantly, I discovered this trick by accident and use it when I am cornered and I suspect someone might try to use a low leg sweep recovery if I knock them down.


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That might be good against a human you know that always uses low rising attacks and it's decent risk to reward even if you just have a hunch but there are better options if you bait, dash back and dash back in with a heel kick or [p] or [k]+[g] from range, and another safe option is just fuzzy and make your opponent guess between throw-low throw/ mid-low circular/ launcher/ and maybe [p] into bokutai would be a nice one to throw in here sparingly.

[ QUOTE ]

I have am also practicing using the + as the game recovers with their recovery kick low or mid back up just enough to make them whiff and slam them with the fully charged move immediately after they miss causing a stomach collapse and get the free combo in afterwards. It is all about spacing and I am working at it in free training. I never actually got this to work yet not as I hoped it would but I think it might work


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Timing notwithstanding (I don't really play as Pai but I think you might have to input the command well before your opponent even starts the rising), I don't think it'll be in range of most whiffed risings and even if it is, it won't work against any non-poor opponents unless they're caught really off guard or they're really off their game. You'd be better off sticking with the uncharged version of this - free heel kick combo on ch (or if there's not there should be free swallow kicks) - if you want to use this move to punish whiffed risings but I've never seen anyone use it then either so you probably can't use either version of this move as one of your main options in those situations.

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Another trick I found works on the AI to disrupt their timing offensively is to stay on the ground and not try to get up right away after you are knocked down. The game can anticipate recovery attacks but if you stay down and force them to stop and watch them as they block high and low waiting for you to do something you can get free throw attempts on them. All it takes is some disipline and patience and Pai can get a low throw real easy if they duck too long or you can get a high throw if they anticipated the low throw. This is how I get many of my throws on the game and if I use recovery attacks every so often they won't know what is coming next but if the enemy will actively hit me on the ground it won't work but the AI won't do this much making it a great way to turn the tide in your favor against an overaggressive AI player.


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I haven't played VF in a while but it seems like this'll only really work in beginner mode/the non fuzzying standard arcades. Also you'll be eating a lot of big counters if you try this on a human. Another thing: I don't know how it is now, but I remember a lot of flames during threads in the past when the topic was about how to exploit quest mode ai's - generally this site is more about the competitive play aspect. Just a heads up.

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I know the + will work against players of any level if you suspect that they might do a low sweep kick as a recovery. You make a very good point with what you said as well but I would rather not use the move I mentioned and just back up so I don't have to guess and it always misses but I might try the + move now that you mentioned it thanks. As for the throw tactic I mentioned I know it will never work on a human player people either get hit by it, try to block it or back up so they don't get hit by it and I would never do it against a human player. Another good thing I have always thought of doing was to simply block the low recovery kick do a low throw immediately after wards but I am horrible at guess games so I don't try it very much. The character I am best at when it comes to beating recovery kicks is Vanessa and her + charge back kick that backs up beyond the range of a recovery kick mid or low and slams them instantly on a whiff setting them up for a low throw or low combo. With Aoi my other character I catch them with her reversals and stagger them afterwards. I am always looking for ways to do this to better my play. Pai don't have very much to work with move wise compared to most of the other characters in the game so I have to make up for it somehow. I will use your suggestions and see if they work for me thank you.

 

Remember also that any move which does more damage than a rising kick will MC the rising kick if timed properly...moves with a large number of hit frames &/or good damage potential are very good for this...kage's , jeff's knee, akira's shoulder...big moves that kind of hang out there can dramatically turn a round around for you. This idea is in the tutorial & it looks like you guys have done the exercises.