Tossing Frames for 0-Frame Throw

aka How to piss off someone fuzzy-guarding after their elbow is blocked (and do it with a throw no less!).

First of all: HUGE THANKS TO YOSUKE FOR SHOWING THIS TO ME (twice even!)

Normally, you cannot get 0-frame throw right after an attack has been blocked (as one of the conditions translated by Akai here).

However, if you do something to waste enough frames, like wait or move, you can get the 0-frame throw. This probably sounds obvious, but the implications are easily overlooked. Here's a practical example that was given and shown to me (by Yosuke).

Your opponent does an elbow and you block it. This situation is typically -5 frames for your opponent (+5 frames for you). If you throw right away, you will get the 12-frame throw. Because of this, your opponent can crouch or crouchdash under your throw. Which pretty much is why fuzzy guard is a good and common option here.

However, that doesn't mean you cannot throw your fuzzy-guarded opponent. The barrier for your immediate throw option is the 12-frame throw.

To get around this, you can do a forward dash to throw away a few frames (I'm not sure how many, maybe it's at least 5?). If you do forward dash --> throw, you will get a 0-frame throw if your opponent did fuzzy guard (or just sat and blocked or did nothing for that matter).

The specific details I, myself, am uncertain of. My guess is that the frames you have to throw away are related to the hit-stun and guard-stun frames (as explained in Myke's Frames Guide). But maybe it is just simply because an advantage is there and you have to waste the advantage frames.

If it was just related to simply just the advantage, then blocking a low punch (-5 typically) should be an identical situation where you can dash and throw for 0-frame.

I don't think this is anything new, but my oblivious eyes have not seen this clearly posted on VFDC. Yosuke's shown it to me, but I also saw him show it to a bunch of people (specifically Rodney and the NYC crew) at the SoCal Gathering. I don't know if it was fully understood at the time either though.

I'm sure a lot of the vets do know this though, but it should be posted on VFDC anyhow.

And for reference sake, here's Akai's (much thanks to him) translated list of non 0-frame conditions:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The situations in which 0 frame throw do not occur -

1. After a striking attack connect as a hit or is guarded.
2. During a successful evade.
3. After a successful evade.
4. Throws attempted when a character is in a "crumbled state."
5. Throw is escaped situation / after a throw clash.
6. After a character rising up from down position.
7. After an offensive move.

In those listed situations, the "tsukami" throw occurs. Since "tuskami" throws take 12 frames to execute, you can only get guarantee throws at -12 sitations in Situation 1 scenarios. </div></div>

As a side note, if you opt for this dash for 0-frame throw, you will throw away clash options (after a blocked elbow, you can clash with 14 frames or slower execution clashable attacks if I did the math right).

-Chanchai

 

This the principle behind the Kage tidbit that I posted in the kage thread.

You can also do this after LP hits etc... Another technique is to do evade cancel as fast as possible.

Specifics of this technique is outlined briefly in one of the arcadia articles. Might have even been the issue that was passed around that day.

In one of my earlier posts about 0-frame throws, I talk about the safe window where you are protected from 0 frame throws.

You are basically delaying your throw until the window is over, and exploit the fact that under certain frame situations, there is no way to enter crouch early enough to avoid the 0 frame throw right after the safe window.

 

How many frames is wasted by the forward dash --> throw (which is a forward dash cancelled by a throw, right?).

I need to go back to Raoul's post somewhere where he talked about where you could cancel dashes into block, right? ... FOUND IT! Properties of the different kinds of dashes (THANKS RAOUL!)

So forward dash is cancellable at the 4th frame (which I'm guessing required an extra frame to input the first forward in the dash, making it 5 frames used up).

Given this... if you MC'd the low punch (+7) and did forward dash-throw with fastest possible input, would you then still get the 12-frame throw?

But on the flip side, if you MC'd the low punch, did a CD, then you would get the 0-frame throw? (because CD is cancellable after 7 frames?).

Does that sound right to you, Srider?

-Chanchai

 

I think the rules for throws are

After an attack hits or is blocked, there is a 10 frame window where you can't 0 frame throw. When coming out of the recovery from a succesful evade you can't 0 frame throw (probably for 10 frames as well).

So you always have to delay for 10 frames

 

Fact is, I remember a Vanessa clip on Youtube, where a Vanessa player did 66KP on block (-11), and a low punch. The opponent tried to throw and got beat out by the low punch, then he tried to delay throw several times until he hit the exact sweetspot and got a guaranteed 0 frame throw by delaying exactly 10 frames (leaving one frame where Vanessa can't act).

 

lol... just remembered that at +7, opponent can't crouch under throw anyways so the only benefit is to throw off their throw escape timing I guess lol.

 

It's always worth discussing and reminding--so no worries about whether it's on topic or not, it's highly relevant and important.

It's definitely easy for a lot of players to end up over-favoring a particular option which can dumb down their game. So I am happy that you bring up this critical point that VF is always about those cycle of options and counter options.

As implied in the messages above, the only real use for dash-throw is the specific situation in which an opponent is doing fuzzy-guard after a blocked elbow. Aside from that, maybe we need to test to make sure the opponent can't just duck the dash-throw in general (in which case this can be a nice nitaku situation if true, I guess).

Because there are a good amount of people who are new to VF that do read these boards (even as anonymous), I love seeing these reminders because it's certainly important ^_^

You also made the example very, very clear.

-Chanchai

 

I've been mucking around with this myself based on vids I saw.

After Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif, I've been going for turn around throw and ended up with a zero frame throw.

Does this has any specific timing (and has to do with that 10frame window) or does using a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif from BT to turn around already count as movement, thus lifting the "after block no 0-frame" condition? (Or in other words, do I need to work on a certain timing or is this one automatic?)

I'll be trying this out over the weekend.

 

I'm wondering whether or not there really is a 10-frame restrictive window as Jeneric suggested. I just don't personally know.

My understanding was based on getting back to a "neutral" situation so to speak. But I am definitely open to the 10-frame window idea. Though my guess is that a dash-in throw is less than 10 frames, so that's the problem I have with that, because I'm pretty certain a dash-throw with as fast as possible timing will get the 0-frame throw.

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if manually turning around from backturned wasted enough frames to open up the 0-frame throw condition. I wouldn't be surprised if your opponent could duck under that throw attempt though (ducking while you are turning around).

Goh's PK is +1 on hit and I'm sure it takes more than a frame to turn around. However, because your opponent can crouch before you get to the throw (at least, that's what I'm assuming), your opponent could still crouch under the throw attempt and probably will fuzzy the throw attempt. But if your opponent is standing, evading, or blocking--you'll probably get the 0-frame throw.

I think the reason the elbow example is strong is because that's a situation where an opponent can fuzzy guard (and fuzzy guard happy opponents are likely to fuzzy guard in that situation), but the 0-frame throw would get them. The question that remains in my mind on the elbow situation is if they can even duck under a dash-throw at all after their elbow is blocked.

BTW, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif seems like a pretty nice flowchart for Goh /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

-Chanchai

 

I remember SHOU talking about that 10 frame window, we did some testing with friends with low throw a while ago.
Setup was:
P1 does ElBlaze /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a low move wich recovers at -10 (hence normaly not low throw counterable).
Then he mashes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to prevent opponent from low throwing him.
P2 blocks blaze's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and low throw immediately.

--> Result the P2 throw is interrupted by the strinking P1

Then setup 2:
P1 does ElBlaze /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a low move wich recovers at -10 (hence normaly not low throw counterable).
Then he mashes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to prevent opponent from low throwing him.
P2 blocks blaze's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and crouch dash THEN low throw with proper timming.

--> Result P2 0 frame throw the opponent. No interrupt.

Hence according to this test (wich is not 100% reliable as it's not a recorded one, sure but we did try a few times so I'm quite sure about the result) 10 Frame disadvantage actually means throw counterable if your opponent can do the Of throw consistently (not easy).

 

Extremely interesting. But have you tried this with moves of differing disadvantage? Like -9 etc? Just to be sure its exactly 10 frames.

 

The safety buffer window is indeed 10 frames as stated in the black book.

 

Six frames AFAIK.

 

This from full backturned position? What about sideturned?

 

so basically this technique of delaying your throw only really matters a +6 because after that your opponent cant fuzzy.


And all it really is is delaying your throw with a quick forwardash....interesting

 

Side turned is three frames? I forget...I think it's posted in my system thread.