Two Pai questions

Help with a couple of Pai questions would be appreciated.

f+K+G - When to use it properly, and what to do if blocked ?
I've tried escaping, but that doesn't seem to work that well

K - I've been using it as my primary launcher, but run into
problems if it's blocked or ducked. Any suggestions ?

Cheers

Wookie

 

1. I don't have any particular insights as I don't use that move often, but if memory serves me the recovery time is deceptively fast. So you can use it as a lead in to surprise the opponent. A move that is probably best used sparingly though...but if any Pai specialists have any other comments, feel free to add. /images/icons/wink.gif

2. Pai isn't really a "launcher" type of player. She doesn't rely on combos nor does she have many damaging ones. A standing K is decent if you know the opponent can't GTE and is throw escaping, but the best application would be in situations where Pai has the advantage and the K could interrupt whatever the opponent throws out. In other words, use standing K as a counter against offensive (as opposed to passive) opponents.

ice-9

 

1. I also don't use f+K+G very often, as I also run into the same problems you face. However, you could try the continuation which the CPU rarely uses (f+K+G, f+K+G), and from what I read that second cartwheel takes one-fifth the time of the first cartwheel to execute. Or just stick with b+K+G and d/b+K+G.

2. I also love using K, but if the opponent starts blocking/low blocking/reversing you've got to stop. If you're against CPU for first few levels or a opponent who rarely dodges/blocks, it's quite cool for 'launching' and for combos . But the only way I can find out of your problem is to use it sparingly and suddenly to catch your opponent off guard. Otherwise, if you're fighting Pai (not sure if it works against other k'ters reversals) also, you can do the high kick vs. high kick reversal (P+G) if you get caught in her kick reversal.

 

Thanks

Thanks for you're help Ice and anon. I'm going to need all the help I can get if i'm going to the proposed London gathering !

 

K - I've been using it as my primary launcher, but run into
problems if it's blocked or ducked. Any suggestions ?

Indeed, Pai's K should be her primary launcher, if not the only one.

However, random K-ing is not recommended, as the move is relatively slow and hits HIGH. I recommend following 3 situations:

1) Guaranteed situation after blocking opponent's move
Block Jacky's elbow-spinkick, Akira's super-dashing-elbow, K (and the combos) is guaranteed. Take the guaranteed damage while you can.

2) Oppoenent's Throw-whiff animation

Some blocked moves will give Pai guaranteed throw but not K. (eg. Wolf's short-shoulder) Nonetheless, K may work well against oppoenent's throw-escape attempt. Will NOT work against Guard-throw-escape, so find out your oppoenent's level of defense technique.

3) When you anticipate oppoenent's throw attempt

Typical siatuons include: after staggered, blocked sidekick (Pai's), or...f+K+G(!). In these situations, where throw is not guaranteed, many players will still go for throw as one of guessing game options. If you really anticipate this, use K to counter their throw attempts.

Staggered > (recover) > K + combo
(it would be even better if you could tack on throw-escape at the end, just in case). This is something similar to what Akira does with his SPoD, except that it won't do as much damage. Note that you'll probably get fried if your oppoenent goes for attack instead of a throw; so use it sparingly, only when you really anticipate his throw attempt.

f+K+G - When to use it properly, and what to do if blocked ?
I've tried escaping, but that doesn't seem to work that well

As Ice-9 already mentioned, recovery time of this move is deceptively short. Nothing is guaranteed as counter. However, I bet that many players (including myself) will go for throw because it looks like throw-guaranteed. Therefore, this would be a good situation to K, as mentioned in 3) above.

E will not work too well; E will lose to a throw, and be interrupted by many fast moves. I will most likely do either Guard-throw-escape, or K when anticipating incoming throw.

All and all, take my stuff as a grain of salt. I am not a Pai player, and those who play me know how often I use Pai, next to none.

 

is it me or is pai's heelkick completely unavoidable (if done properly) after her stumble throw?

even if it isn't, i've always prefered the heelkick to her single K as an alternative to her FC throw as stumble throw followups.

 

It *should* be avoidable I think.

Myke brought a very good point: K after a successful f+P+K should be guaranteed (I think). At least for an mC if not MC.

ice-9

 

is it me or is pai's heelkick completely unavoidable (if done properly) after her stumble throw?

Avoiding the heelkick (K while standing up?) is easier said and done, as you have to struggle pretty hard. b,d+PG forces recovery ranging between +11 and +36 frames.

I get hit by it 60% of the time...until I feel desperate and start trying real hard...perfect time for D_f+PG.

 

re: +11/+36 frames: we know those aren't cut and dried. i've never trusted them. take other SE throws..kage's f+P+G should allow time to avoid the DP in any circumstances, but you can only avoid it with certain terrain and characters.

then there's the eternal argument about whether or not you struggled out of it or if the other player flubbed it or was too slow (see akira's ST, SJK since VF2. my side: it's completely unavoidable; akira player has to botch it).

there's two things a vf3 cpu AI will do really well: get up inhumanly fast, and struggle out of staggers and stumbles inhumanly fast. i've never had the cpu block my heelkick unless i thought i was too slow. so i tend to guess that it is unavoidable under nominal circumstances.

 

re: +11/+36 frames: we know those aren't cut and dried.

True, especially knowing Gamest's past track record regarding accuracy of their data. By the way, for the longest time, I've wondered how Gamest came out with those recovery frame stats. Recently I've read it in Japanese site that Gamest was using a specially designed board & device and letting the characters JUMP.

JUMP has certain frame stats to execute, and I guess holding UP makes the life a bit easier. Then there is a question of how long JUMP takes to execute...gotta ask the SEGA programmer.

there's two things a vf3 cpu AI will do really well: get up inhumanly fast, and struggle out of staggers and stumbles inhumanly fast.

...and Dural is the mother of all CPUs. Why don't you try it against Dural and let us know of results? I can try it out on my dusted DC, but that would surely casts doubt on data reliability.

 

ah when i said cpu i meant every character, dural included. she never seems to be able to block it. but i do now have a sneaking suspicion that she and other characters may actually be struggling out of the rigour time and then going for an attack, which is then MC'ed by the heelkick. i can't tell for sure, though. but if that's so, then the heelkick would be blockable.

feh..i'll just leave it as "blockable". doesn't matter much in the end; stumble trip is bad news for the opponent if the pai knows what's she doing.

and gamest's times might be accurate, it's just that animation, terrain and so many other dynamics play a big part in the game.

 

Re: ST Heelkick?

Is that b,D+P+G -> K like Akira's d,D+P+G -> b,f+P or is it ST CD K?

 

>Peter

ST Heelkick

Pai's b,d+PG > while standing up K (or CD-K, as it's the best method to perform) is what mr.bungle and I've been talking about.

Pai's single K-launcher is also a viable option. In terms of pure frame stats, I think K is more guaranteed (as it does not involve CD). But Pai player has to time it right because ST recovery time varies a lot, depending on how much the opponent struggles.

By the way, that's also how to avoid Lau's seemingly guaranteed ST > b,f+P > low-K combo. The trick is NOT to struggle at all, not touching any button or joystick direction. But you leave yourself wide open for Lau's other attack, such as b,b+P (ouch). Oh well, I digress.

>Mr. Bungle

I don't know...the name "mr.bungle" somehow cracks me up, just the sound of it. Anyway...

i do now have a sneaking suspicion that she and other characters may actually be struggling out of the rigour time and then going for an attack

One of the things I've been meaning to do when eating Pai's ST is:
struggle > elbow > throw-escape (most likely f+PG)

This way, elbow can interrupt relatively slow-executed heelkick, and also espace f+PG just in case when Pai's throw wins out (against my elbow). Knowing that Pai's heelkick takes 14 frs, plus mandatory CD of 5 or 6 frames, struggle + elbow (11 + 11=22 frs) does not seem a bad bet. Downside is that you probably has to struggle like a madman to recover in the fastest possible timing.

How does this work in real combat situation? Well, my result has been mixed, perhaps 50/50 rate. It could be 1) Pai executed CD slower than 5/6 frames (likely) 2) I did not struggle enough.

I cannot validate the usefulness of this technique...because those VF weaklings in Chicago do not use Pai. Or is it that I too am one of those weaklings and not doing my own homework (muscular Harold, greedy Andy, are you reading this??)

 

Punk

"I cannot validate the usefulness of this technique...because those VF weaklings in Chicago do not use Pai. Or is it that I too am one of those weaklings and not doing my own homework (muscular Harold, greedy Andy, are you reading this??)"


Hey, I'm taking finals over here!

Oops... better hit the books again.

You're gonna get whooped once I get back.

Muscles Harold (The bastardized US version)

 

elbow tactic..i don't think that going to work. at all. even if you do it perfectly, against a competent pai you're more than likely to just eat the heelkick for an additional 10 or so points aaaaannd a high pounce.

there have been competent pai's that i've gone against (joji, jason), and i found the best thing to do is just wait and see and try your best to tell if he's going for the FC throw or heelkick. that, or just wail f+P+G over and over. sounds like crap, but hey, there's really not much you can do at all.