Unevadable Meaty's Juggle Potential

Messing around with unevadable meaties I came across a wierd situation where moves that usually connect in a specific juggle will oddly go through the opponent's hurtbox without hitting.

The very next thing I did was to swap that particualr move with an other one but for every other move I chose the result was the same.

My second guess was that it could have been a dojo glitch (there are a few already known plus one about kage that I need to post) so I tested it out offline in versus mode (thanks Mister) but once again the result was the same.

Till this point I was analyzing a specific juggle off an unevadable meaty when it came to my mind to see if this wierd stuff was present in different scenarios (different juggle and/or unevadable meaty).
Was at this point that I found it was something present in every juggles (at lest for kage) started off an unevadable meaty.

Looking for something in common between these different scenarios I found that the collisions were stopping as soon as the hit counter reached 6.

The most simple explanation of this behaviour is the presence of a juggle potential (limit of hit during a juggle).
To confirm or reject this theory I ask that you guys should do some tests with the carachter you are familiar with.

The condition for the experiments are:

- CPU set to defensive move (both directions are good)
- details of the dummy set to exact wake up ("in place" should have a lot more frames for setting up an unevadeable)
- a way to hit the dummy during its defensive move making also possible to setup a un unevadeable meaty
- a few different juggles (with more than 6 hits with walls or not) for every unevadeable meaty (no yellow flash on hit)

Here's a couple of the setups I used with kage (it works the same not just for these cases but for all unevadable meaty setups that Kage has):

1)
- set the CPU to evade toward Kage's belly and perform a just ukemi (Perfect Tech Roll or Perfect Quick Rise)
- with Kage from center stage (with walls) do >>!>>!>WALL SPLAT>!
- the last kick will not connect

2)
- set the CPU to evade (bot directions are good) and perform a just ukemi (Perfect Tech Roll or Perfect Quick Rise)
- with the dummy's back at the wall do >WALL SPLAT>>>!> (hold to Juumonji) > (Juumonji)>>>!>
- the last will not connect

 

Challenge accepted.

This feels more like a mission than a test.

 

I posted this a while ago. You even posted in the thread God3l. There is some form of "meaty protection" in the game. Landing combo starters meaty can restrict the kind of combo you get. You don't necessarily need wall splats to test, but they do make the results obvious.

 

My first thought was that this might simply be caused by the combostarters hitting essentially as crouching normal hits, which does limit the combos. But I will see if I can find anything.

ps. So far I haven't noticed anything of the sort.

 

Completely forgot about that.
Just checked the thread you were referring too and I remembered already knewing this wierd stuff (however I gave you the credit for posting it first) and was more interested in finding others ways to replicate this hitboxes/hurtboxes oddity (like some BT 2K case).
So I started finding more unevadeable meaties to make more tests but in the process I forgot about my initial aim.
This problem came back to my attention in January but I needed someone else to test it outside of the dojo and sadly I had to wait till Cannes when Mister came to my house.
Being able to exclude a dojo glitch I found out about the juggle potential.

To differentiate the two threads you were talking about "Wall slump invincibility" when, as you already said in this topic now, it's something that doesn't need any walls to show itself.
I posted cases with walls involved just to make more evident that's not a hurtbox/hitbox oddity (as you said it makes the results more obvious)

OT
I wrote wall splat in the first case but obviously I was referring to a wall slump (I make this error a lot of times)

 

Manji, some launchers give the same combo regardless of standing or crouching hit; e.g. Kage 66P+K. The "protection' generally kicks in when trying max damage combos.

Go into Dojo with Kage v Sarah. Set Sarah to crouch and perform this combo:
66P+K, 6_P, 66P+K, dash, 2P, 46K+GK!K. This should land. If you then land 66P+K meaty, Sarah will fall out at the end.

This is just an example off the top of my head. I'm at work, so I can't verify this until later.

 

Go in Dojo and set it as
Reaction: CH or Defensive move
Fall Recovery: Side roll/front or back (exact)
and use 1K+G to knock Aoi down.
Now place 4K+G as meaty and try to get the LB with 2P+K in this combo:
4K+G -> 6_P -> 6_KG -> 2P+K.
You won't be able to while 2P+K causes a LB if that combo is performed after 4K+G hit when both characters were standing.

As Drift said it only affects Max Damage combos, at least that's what I found.
The one I've written is just an example, many times it kind of feels like you have to use the next weight category Max Damage when you use Jacky's 4K+G as meaty.
The "protection" also seems to work always, I can't remember the scenario at the moment but I remember that I couldn't end a combo after it caused a Wall Hit (the one that Jacky can finish with 6K+G or Kage can finish with 2P+K, just to be clear).

 

He waned to know if this is indeed universal. I just tested this with Eileen's 33P combo and it does indeed make the character fall out of the combo after 6 hits.

 

Hm, lucky me. This doesn't affect 2 hit launches (1 hit meaty, second launch). Or at least I was able to land max (90) damage on Jacky who is the heavies it works on.

 

I ask if you guys could post the results of your tests along with the CPU settings, all the inputs of your scenario and pointing out which move is whiffing while in normal conditions it would connect.
Thanks.

 

Haven't tested this out yet (not even sure if I have combo's over 6 hits lol) but are you sure it's not just a result of the meaty hitting the opponent when they are sideturned or crouched? Both are common so it seems plausible.

Anyway, i'll test it out and see what I find.

 

it's not because the opponent is sideturned (you can see clearly when it's the case) or crouched (except DPoD that dosen't work on crouching opponent, unless it's in RCH, all of Kage's launcher are indipendent of stand/crouching state)

 

Ok :/


With Akira...

Test 1.

> > DLC > Wallhit >

This wouldn't work after the wall hit, so the counter did stop at 6 hits. Tried a few other random yoho combo's and the results were the same.

Test 2.

> > DLC > Wallhit >

All 8 hits of this worked, tried from multiple positions and the result was the same every time.

About all I tested and from that I can't really tell what's happening.

If I were to guess i'd still point the finger at the opponents position when they are being hit with the meaty, in my 1st test yoho either hit sideturned or backturned everytime but in the second test the first hit of landed sideturned but the opponent realigns before the second hit, meaning they are fully upright and facing forward before the actual launch.

 

It's important that everyone should post even the setups that leads to the knockdown after which you setup the unevadeable meaty.

So in this case Feck how do you get the knockdown?
And for the sake of semplicity to let someone else replicate our tests we should write the inputs and not the name of the moves

 

for both tests and CPU was set to defensive move and recover in place.

EDIT: Look at my combo list, i've typed the input out for DLC so much that it hurts Also, a little presumptious but I think everyone that has any kind of interest in this discussion will know what Akira's DLC is

 

DLC may be counted by the system at one move so you're getting above the 6 counter that way. Can you give us a combo that doesn't use DLC.

 

The first test used DLC and the combo failed, i'm going to have fun finding an Akira combo that does 6+ hits without that move

 

this scenario you picked it's a bit tricky because it has special situation in it.
This is not a "normal" combo so that's the reason for the 6 hits limit to not kick in.

is not a natural combo BUT on a ST or BT opponent it becomes a combo.
The problem is even if it's unblockable (if the first hit connects) the opponent is moving around his axes.
You can see clearly when you land it on a BT opponent: the second hit will connect ST.
If you land it on a ST opponent you will not see the opponent rotating around its axes but it's moving the same (and put again in a ST state after the second hit).
It's because the BT/ST/FT (front turned) are discrete states.
Hitting a BT opponent with a natural combo will result in all hits connecting on opponent still BT (to not go too much off topic if somebody is interested I could open a new thread about this topic).

So while is meaty (we are sure of that because the opponent is BT and the transition to the first part of the ST state takes only 1 frame to start) there's a gap in the hit stun (that make possible for the opponent to rotate) and so the "real" launcher (opponent still grounded) is which is not an unevadeable meaty.

Just messing around with this setup it seems that if you set the cpu to do an exact roll (both directions are good) after (at point blank) if you enter asap the first hit will miss but should connect as an unevadeable meaty and launch the opponent.
Give it a try and let me know.

 

You are an amazing tester. Please try to break this game for us as best you can.

 

It's just that I love to solve puzzles and VF is full of them

Not being able to get a bound with 2P+K in this scenario has nothing to do with the limit set by an unevadeable meaty.

Moreover there's a way to get the LB works in aforementioned scenario.

Just do:

1K+G (19 frames) > 66 (1 FK) > 4K+G (23 frames) > 6_P > 6_KG > 2P+K

The trick is having 4K+G hittig on its forth active frame and not the fifth as you get from doing it asap after the low sweep.
This way you coverd also one more frame of the 5 during which is possible to just ukemi
Obviously if 1K+G connects on the 20th frame you'll need to waste 2 frames.


BTW I made a couple of test (with the first 2 scrubby combos that came to mind) with Jacky and even for him there's the 6 hits limit.

1)
- Jacky vs Eileen
- central position on the ring, cpu set to defenisve move (both directions are good) and exact recovery in place
- > > > > > WALL SLUMP >

- last doesn't connect

2)
- Jacky vs Jacky
- dummy's back at the wall, cpu setdefenisve move (both directions are good) and exact recovery in place
- > > > > WALL SLUMP >
- the last whiffs while when done in a not meaty combo (near the wall!) it connects