Unsuccessful Dodge Cancel Attack

The webmaster of 1/60sec, Kazu, gave permission for us to use and translate some material on his website. I've finally spared some time to put the translation (thanks to my friend Atsushi) together in a document on VFDC:

Unsuccessful Dodge Cancel Attack

The information is quite advanced so it may be very confusing if you're new to VF or don't understand the concept of frames and buffering inputs.

It basically details the mechanics behind cancelling an unsuccessful dodge with a forward crouch dash. It's this mechanism which made defensive techniques such as ARE and VIP possible in Evo. But now in FT, only ARE is possible. Read the document to find out why.

As a reminder:

ARE = dodge ~ crouch dash ~ attack
VIP = dodge ~ attack ~ crouch dash

When the ARE technique was first discussed on VFDC, there was some confusion between ARE and VIP. Here's the thread as reference: ARE (All Round Escape).

Use this thread for any discussion on the matter, or if you have any questions I'll try to answer them as best I can. If anyone else has anything to contribute, then feel free as well.

 

OK let me try to clarify a couple of things and then summarize what I believe are the main points of the translated document.

ARE and VIP
I briefly defined these as follows:

ARE (All Round Escape) = dodge ~ crouch dash ~ attack
VIP (Very Important Protection) = dodge ~ attack ~ crouch dash

In the case of VIP, we're not talking about dodge attacks (evade P+K+G). Instead, we're referring to distinct inputs. This is what is really happening with your input:

ARE = or ~ ~ (+ optional attack, more on this later)
VIP = or ~ ~ (+ optional attack)

How are they applied? Let's say you've had your attack guarded and now you're at a medium disadvantage. Your opponent will typically make you guess between a mid attack or throw, right? Well, if you enter one of the above techniques during your recovery time, you can "avoid" both. By avoid I mean the following:

1. If they try to attack --> you will get a successful dodge. This is where your optional attack at the end comes in. If you enter the whole set of commands and your opponent tried to attack you, making you dodge successfully, then by the time you've recovered from that dodge, you'll have your optional attack processed. A nice fast knockdown attack / combo starter is preferred here. For example, Akira can use the following ARE input set:

~ ~ ~

which will punish anything slow enough and still standing (i.e. most mid attacks!) with a combo starting standing palm!

2. If they try to throw --> you will attack them (stopping their throw). In the case of ARE, a is a good choice since it's quick to input. You can enter any attack here actually but you don't want to be wasting frames with more complex inputs, which end up wasting time and the overall effectiveness of the technique. In the case of VIP in Evo, with Jeffry you could the following:

~ ~ ~

and the result would be a nice combo starting knee if they tried to throw you!

A couple of notes about these techniques:
- ARE (in Evo and FT) is effective up to -4 frames disadvantage
- VIP (in Evo only) is effective up to -5 frames disadvantage
- you must be very fast and clean with your input. For e.g. if you're at -5 then you must complete the input in around 14 frames.

You can still apply these techniques at small disadvantages, but learning how to fuzzy guard at -1 and -2 is much, much easier. Ideally, you should only apply this technique when at -3 or -4 frames disadvantage.

This is nothing new if you were already familiar with ARE and VIP. Both of these techniques were discussed to death in the thread I linked earlier. Only back then, we didn't refer to VIP by that acronym, and many just thought it was another form of ARE. If you're still confused at this point, then there's little point in reading on. Just skip to the last <font color="white">SUMMARY</font> paragraph for one last chance at understanding just what the hell this is all about /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Making Sense of the Frame Charts
OK everything explained so far is still relevant in FT. The only exception is the VIP no longer works in FT.

If you're trying to make sense of the frame charts, then the important thing you want to look at is the green, cyan (light blue) and yellow shaded cells.

<font color="00ff00">Green: Button Input Ignored</font>
During this time, no button inputs will be processed. Even if you do enter button inputs, they will be ignored. This is a result of the updated system in FT. One can speculate as to why this occurs, and one possible explanation is that if you enter the dodge ~ crouch dash as a "set piece" during freeze time, then it simply ignores any button inputs. What constitutes the set piece?

Well, looking at Case 1 and 2, the dodge ~ crouch dash is initiated during freeze time and completed on the 2nd frame after recovery. It can't be completed faster than that. (Back in Evo, you could complete the input on the 1st frame after recovery.)

If you look at Case 3 and 4, the inputs shown here are not the ideal "set piece". In both cases, the crouch dash is completed on the 3rd frame after recovery, and any buttons that were previously buffered will be processed and no dodging will occur. So if the opponent attacks you, you'll be counter hit. If no buttons were entered, then you will simply dodge, but if the opponent tried to throw you, you will be thrown as you cannot crouch in time.

<font color="00ffff">Cyan: Button Input Accepted</font>
During this time, any button inputs entered will be processed. Let me go over the cases again.

Case 1 and 2: If the ideal "dodge ~ crouch dash" input was entered, then you have a 2 frame window for button input to result in the your fastest possible attack. By that I mean, this is the earliest your attack can start to execute -- and as long as it starts executing, then you'll stop any throw attempt. You might think that a 2 frame window is pretty small, and you're right. Practically speaking, this window can be as large as you like (though it can't start sooner than the 2nd frame after recovery), but the longer you leave it open, the later your attack will execute. And the later your attack executes, the less effective this will be at stopping a throw.

Case 3 and 4: the ideal input wasn't entered, and as such, if any buttons inputs were buffered during freeze time, they will be processed. The earliest they will come out is the 4th frame after recovery, but if the opponent attacks you instead, your dodge won't get processed. Another way to think about it is, if you don't input the dodge ~ crouch dash as the ideal "set piece" then you can spoil it with any button input, and that input gets processed instead. But let's say you were careful not to enter any button inputs during the "dodge~crouch dash", hoping not to spoil it, and instead tacked on your button inputs at the end. Since your "dodge~crouch dash" wasn't ideal, the ealiest your attack can come out is the 5th frame after recovery. Basically, this means that you've reduced the effectiveness of the technique by 1 frame due to slow input. That is, if you input like Case 3 and only attack at cell "C", then it will only work at -3. With the perfect input it can work at -4.

<font color="ffff00">Yellow: Attack Executing</font>
This shows the earliest time your attack can execute after the unsuccessful dodge has been cancelled with the crouch dash. The location of the yellow cell basically tells you how much disadvantage is allowed for the technique. You'll see that the earliest it can occur, in all cases, is the 4th frame after you've recovered (i.e. after freeze time) which means you can use it at 8 - 4 = 4 frames disadvantage maximum. If you try to use it at, say, -5, then you'll be thrown before your attack comes out.

<font color="white">SUMMARY</font>
Like other defensive techniques, these aren't without their weaknesses. If the opponent uses a circular attack, delays their attack, or you dodge into their half circular, then you'll get hit in all cases.

In order to see what's changed between FT and Evo, just compare the charts, and the main differences that should come out are as follows.

in Evo, when doing the VIP technique (ignore ARE since it's inferior):
- you could complete the dodge ~ crouch dash input on the 1st frame after recovery
- you had a <font color="00ffff">nice fat window</font> to enter your attack
- the earliest your attack could execute was on the <font color="ffff00">3rd frame after recovery</font>,
- this technique is effective up to -5 frames disadvantage.

in FT, when doing the ARE technique:
- you had to complete the dodge ~ crouch dash on the 2nd frame after recovery (i.e. one frame slower than Evo)
- you have a <font color="00ffff">considerably smaller</font> window (2 frames) in order to enter your attack
- the earliest your attack could execute is the <font color="ffff00">4th frame after recovery</font> (1 frame slower than Evo)
- making this technique effective up to -4 frames disadvantage (1 frame less effective than Evo)

Bottom line: In FT, you have a technique that's 1 frame less effective than what it used to be, with tighter input requirements and potentially more disastrous results if you spoil the input.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Robio_kun said:

One thing that I never understood about ARE (lets not get into VIP) is why you need to input at the end. shouldn't cancle the evade into crouch dash, which thereby avoids the throw, allowing you to follow up after the whiffed throw, whereas if they attack (non-circular) shouldn't you still evade it? I'll admit I've had little success with AREs when I've tried them so I'm certainly no expert, but I just don't see the point in the . Is it to avaid a delayed attack or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Crouch dashing takes 6 frames for you to be considered in a crouch state (where high throws would whiff). Given that you're already at, say, -3 or -4 frames disadvantage, then a throw can get you in effectively 5 or 4 frames, which isn't enough time for you to crouch under (you need 6 frames remember?).

But if you enter an attack, like , then you will execute this attack instead of trying to crouch (actually you're cancelling the crouch dash with your attack) . As long as the attack starts to execute it will stop the throw attempt outright. A is good as well as it has a good chance of beating any delayed attacks, only if they're slower though.


To alucard: some of us were chatting about ARE at -5 in Evo as well. I'll get back to this after I try a few tests on the ps2.

 

[ QUOTE ]
alucard said:

That was what I thought when I first read the chart on 1/60th, but I did manage to do ARE at -5 back in Evo, although it took me quite a few tries. What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I don't know what gives. I was just testing it now in the ps2 training mode with Kage's which is -5 on guard. I recorded the following action:

~ ~

and set it on playback. My fastest attack was always dodged, and any throw attempt always resulted in another upper.

I'm pretty convinced it works at -5 then, and I'm not sure why 1/60sec doesn't show that, or maybe I misinterpreted it?