Updated ver B changes...

Since DRE posted the link in Media and today is such a slow day at work, I thought I'd start posting what I could make of it. Stuff that was questionable in change has (?) on the statement...


Sarah

The Good:
d/f+K,K corrected tracking.
u+K has had it's stagger changed from an elbow stagger type to a sidekick stagger type.
P+K executes in 26 frames now (1 frame faster).
f+P+K,P,K string is now guaranteed if the first hit connects and using the guard cancel results in entering flamingo more quickly.
K+G has longer hit detection (?) and is less punishable on block.
b+K+G damage increased to 25.
FL b has a longer window of invincibility.
FL K is now special high, (?)
f+P,P the swipe is now special high. (?)
u/b+K snuffs low punches and is harder to punish.

The Bad:
PPP strings no longer force guard.
P,d+K now gives an elbow stagger insterad of a sidekick stagger.
f+P,P cannot be delayed as long, and the swipe gives less advantage on MC.
f+P,K has the damage on the knee dropped to 20, and the float was lowered on the knee.
d/f+P sobers Shun 10% instead of 20%.
d/f,d/f+K is easier to punish, doesn't float as high and had damage reduced to 28
d+K+G damage has dropped to 18 and does not recover as quickly on hit.
u+K+G damage dropped to 20 and float lowered.
FL d/f+P sobers Shun 10% instead of 20%.
u/b+K had it's damage dropped from 38 to 32, which means it's float damage is now 26 base instead of 30.

The ???:
K and F+K now both do 21 damage (?).



Akira

The Good:
DLC damage has been increased in floats from a base of 10,10,15 to 11,12,18.
All floats from guard breaks float higher.
d/f+P+K+G sobers Shun 20% on hit.
TT P+K had its tracking corrected.
f,b+P+G will now grab low punchers (?) (a special high catch throw?).
d,f+P after guard break now gives more advantage when used against crouching opponents. (Guaranteed snglplm -> dblplm on everyone again?)
f,f+K after guard break is now easier to connect.

The Bad:
b,f+P has a base damage of 20, instead of 25, in floats now.
D,b,f+P is easier to punish on block and had damage reduced and set to 30.
D,f+P was reduced from 25-35 to 22-30 damage.
d/f,d/f+P does 30 damage and float is adjusted down.
f,f+K,K has had the second kick damage reduced to 22.
D,f+P+K has had it's damage reduced to 28 on the ground and 22 in float combos. It's float has also been increased (?).
K+G has had it's damage reduced from 20 to 18.
P+G damage dropped from 40 to 35.

The ???:
d/f+P+G escape will always leave the players in open stance. (?)



Shun

The Good:
f+K has better hit detection. (longer reach?)
K+G now beats low punches (?).
d|u+P+K+G stance entry has changed timing as to when Shun is considered back turned for hit detection. Harder to back throw him.
Drunken stance P+K,K does not sober Shun up 10% anymore for the sacrifice toe kick.
Drunken stance f+P+K+G,P stagger is no longer strugglable.
Drunken stance P+G is no longer tech-rollable and can't use quick rise.

The Bad:
P,P,P has more disadvantage when blocked by crouchers.
d/f+P,P is no longer guaranteed when first hit is guarded crouching (?).
K,K,d+P is easier to punish when blocked.
d/b+P+K now sobers opponent Shun 10% instead of 20%.
f+P+K no longer tracks.
Dodge attacks hit detection corrected (?). Damage on second hit dropped by 5.
Drunken stance P does not have as wide an arc of hit detection when snuffing low punches.
270 throw now give Shun 4 drinks instead of 6.

The ???:
b+K changed animation (?).

 

The df+pp,kkd+p and f+p+k changes are pretty big to my game atleast.
I kinda need to see f+p+k+g,p from DS i dont get what they mean by unstrugglable. Although k+g whupping low p's and and no loss of dp on p+k,k is nice. Interesting changes overall

 

Jeffry

The Good:
f,f+P,P is even advantage on normal hit (?).
D,d/f+P give small advantage on normal hit (?).
TKoD leaves opponent grounded longer. (Stomp guaranteed?)
Can enter low throws with back turned and get auto-turned low throw attempt.

The Bad:
d+K does 21 damage and has more disadvantage when blocked.
f+K does 30 damage and doesn't float as high.
P+K,P does not refloat as well (?).
b+P+K,K no longer gives guaranteed throw on MC.
b,f,f+P+K does 30 damage now, down from 35.

The ???:
f+P,b+P changed animation (?).
K and F+K do 26 damage now.


Wolf

The Good:
HCB+P sobers Shun 10% and the delay window for the next punch widened by 3 frames.
d/f+P gives more advantage on MC.
f+K hitting an opponent in the back gives a higher float and is easier to connect (better hit detection).
b+K+G is not as punishable when guarded.
b+K+G,K now knocks down.
Roar stance has better hit detection.
d/b+P+K does 50 damage always.
d+P+K,f+P+G damage increased total low punch reversal damage is now 75.
HCB+P+G,P+G the opponent stays down longer after the clothesline. (long enough for d/f ground throws)
f+P+G gives a longer window for input.
Can enter low throws with back turned and get auto-turned low throw attempt.
Oppoenents cannot escape low side throw. Apparently this is only true for Wolf.

The Bad:
d/f+P no longer sobers Shun.
Aoi can now reverse the running P+K+G.
Roar stance P now does 20 damage, instead of 30.
f+P+K gives less advantage on MC.

The ???:
d/f+K+G knocks down on MC now (?).
b,f+P+K (?) the only thing I can make of this is that the whole attack takes the same amount of time as it used to, but the shoulder actually hits slightly earlier and has longer recovery, but has corresponding block stun lengthened. So bascially the shoulder would come out slightly faster, would not float as well for combos and be just as punishable.


Lion

The Good:
f+P,P second punch comes out slightly faster (?).
f,f+P+K gives more advantage on MC (?).
b,b+K+G hits failed dodges more regularly now.
TT d+K is no longer throw counterable on block.
f,d/b+P+G is now a special high catch throw (will grab low punchers).
f,d/b+P+G,P,P,P is not throw counterable on guard anymore (?).

The Bad:
P,P,P string no longer forces block.
b,d/f+P is easier to punish when blocked.
d/f+P,P is easier to punish when blocked.
d/b+P is easier to punish when blocked.
d/b+P,P second punch comes out more slowly and is easier to punish when blocked.
K and F+K are linear.
f,f+K,K damage is now 23 instead of 25.
P+K damage dropped from 24 to 20.
b,f+K+G damage dropped from 35 to 25.
d/f+K+G does not sober Shun anymore.
d+K+G is easier to punish when blocked.

The ???:
f+P+K,K does not knock down on MC anymore. Something about it staggers or crumples now on MC.
u/f|d/f+P+K+G, P+K now recovers standing when blocked.

 

Basically what it means is that the lunging punch before would give a regular stagger on a croucher (complete with little stuggle icon). The notes indicate that you cannot struggle to shorten the stagger any more.

 

Just a quick note, you should read the thread I started a while ago that listed 90% of these changes, so you don't accidentally duplicate work. We can keep all changes in one thread for easy reference also.
Version B Changes Thread


f+P,P the swipe is now special high.

That makes it official, there's no reason to pick jacky anymore. AIEEEEEEEE%@!%).

u/b+K snuffs low punches and is harder to punish. Especially when compared to kickflips of the past.

My experience was that it already was stupidly hard to punish.

The ???:
K and F+K now both do 21 damage (?).

Bad if you like sarah, it was 25 before. Since she goes into the canned punch afterwards, and you can follow up with float combos, damage reduction makes sense.

akira:
f,f+K after guard break is now easier to connect.

It must now work in open stance.

d/f+P+G escape will always leave the players in open stance. (?)

This is good, before it set up a stupid game whereby both players would try to throw and the fastest draw wins. Maybe by being in open stance, throw is no longer an option.

K+G now beats low punches (?).
Shun's K+G always did beat low punches, odd... this must be something else.

K,K,d+P is easier to punish when blocked.

Can I hear a thank you hallelujah. Look at the stats for this move in version C, it's stupid.

 

If anyone's interested, here's a PDF file of all the changes (in japanese) for all characters. AM2 put this out today on their site: http://am.sega.jp/utop/closeup/vf4evo/a2b.pdf

Hopefully, we can somehow get a full translation of this file.

 

Okay kkd+p wasnt stupid just very very good. Let shun have his 5 moves Good shit on the unstrugglable lunging upper. Nutlog been meaning to ask whats Wolf's highest damage open stance combo MC and non. I have the closed stance MC shrm-p-p-shrm and the shrm-p-low p-pull the carpet but never get much chance to practice open.

 

Jacky

The Good:
P,P,K is not stance dependent to end floats anymore (?).

The Bad:
P,P,P no longer forces guard.
P,P,f+P is only guaranteed on MC and is more punishable when blocked.
P,P,f+P,P,K is easier to hit as a minor counter when blocked.
f+P is more punishable when blocked.
f+P,P,K is easier to hit as a minor counter when blocked.
d/f,d/f+K see notes on Sarah's move.
u/b+K dropped in damage from 38 to 32.
b+K+G no longer gives guaranteed pounce.

The ???:
b,f+P+K is harder to punish (?).
d/b+P+K,K,K,K,d+K recovers low when blocked now.


Kage

The Good:
u/b+K+G snuffs low punches and is harder to punish.
Kage can autoreverse punches while entering jumonji stance.
u/b+K with back turned floats slightly better (?).
Entering jumonji with back turned comes out a bit faster.

The Bad:
Cannot buffer inside b,b+K+G as easily.

The ???:
Something about his regular punch...(?)
Some open/closed stance correction changes on entering jumonji and using P,K while in stance...
Only Aoi can reverse the running K while in stance now.


Pai

The Good:
K+G is not as punishable when blocked.
Back turned u/b+K gives a slightly better float.

The Bad:
P,P,P no longer forces guard.
d/b+P is easier to punish when blocked.
D,f+P is easier to punish when blocked.
f,b+P no longer sabakis knees.
f,b+P,P is more punishable when blocked.
Damage ranges for Pai's charged kick in the low blue fist strings has changed from 25-45 to 20-35.
K,K damage is lowered from 20 to 16.
d/f+K,P the opponent can now duck under the punch when blocking the kick before.
u/f+K,K first hit damage lowered from 20 to 15.
K+G now tops out at 25 damage.
d+K+G is easier to punish on block and damage is dropped to 20.
Circular evade stance (I think) K and K+G are both easier to punish when blocked now. (?)
d+P+K+G damage dropped from 50 to 45.

No ???.

 

Yeah, I know, Creed. I figured that since this is from Sega officially, and not gamespot (where most of the other thread originated from), this may warrant a fresh look. (and I'm REALLY bored at work)...

 

b,f+P+K (?) the only thing I can make of this is that the whole attack takes the same amount of time as it used to, but the shoulder actually hits slightly earlier and has longer recovery, but has corresponding block stun lengthened. So bascially the shoulder would come out slightly faster, would not float as well for combos and be just as punishable.

why have sega set their hearts on almost destroying wolf's launching game entirely? especially seeing as alot of other characters have multiple launching moves, it's like "hey, since we've reduced wolf to only one solid launcher which is slow, needs some room, and only really reliable for a backdash ~ attack as the round begins, why don't we make it faster? nah, that would make people use it more, i know, make the float worse, and the recovery just as punishable so it would make the improvement ..........almost pointless!"

*Sega staff cheer with a satisfaction of acheivement*

 

Lau

The Good:
Widened the window for entering tiger stance from f+P,P by 3 frames.
b+P recovery on block slightly better.
b+P,P the second hit comes out faster.
d/f+P,P,K does not give as much disadvantage on hit.
d/f+K,P can enter tiger stance slightly faster.
Dodge attack is now only throw counterable on block (?).
back turned u/b+K now gives better float.

The Bad:
P,P,P string and d/f+P,P,P string no longer force guard.
b,f+P now sobers Shun 10% instead of 20%.
f,d+K is easier to punish on block.
K+G damage dropped from 30 to 25.
d+K+G damage dropped to 20 and is easier to punish when blocked.
Tiger stance P does half damage to crouching guard and does not guarantee follow ups anymore.
Lau's back turned u+K+G is reversable as a mid kick (?) (but it doesn't say Aoi only like the other exceptions).

No ???.


Lei Fei

The Good:
f+P,P second hit now does full damage to crouchers instead of half.
(Bokutai) P easier to delay to connect second punch (?).
(Bokutai) P,P second punch recovers faster when use in a float (?).
(Bokutai) f+P has better hit detection.

The Bad:
f+P,P second hit no longer staggers crouchers.
f,f+P+K recovers more slowly after MC hit (?).
(IN) d+K is throw counterable when blocked (?).
(Bokutai) P+K no longer is special high (?).
(IN) u|d+K+G is easier to punish when blocked (?).
(Tiger) K is no longer a low sabaki (?).
Back turned K damage dropped from 25 to 18.

No ???.


Aoi

The Good:
P,P,f+P,P easier to guard cancel with late timing (?).
P,P,P,d+K reduced the disadvantage when blocked.
b,d/f+P is no longer throw counterable.
f+P,P second hit actually gives advantage on MC now.
f+P+K,P is easier to g cancel later.
MC QCF+P+K recovers slightly faster.
d+K+G is easier to g cancel later and cancel to stance later.
Stance evade P is now semi-circular.

The Bad:
Increased recovery of guard canceled P,P strings.
Regular hit with K, advantage lowered slightly.
b,b+P+K sobers Shun 10%, down from 20%.
K+G has longer recovery on regular hit.
d+K+G is easier to punish.
D,f+P+G no longer gives a guaranteed ground throw chance.
Stance inashi no longer sobers Shun.
None of Aoi's reversals give ground throw opportunities anymore.

The ???:
P+G, U|D something about wall hits with the P+G throw (?).

 

I'm not saying that I was right about that interpretation, but it's the closest thing to sense I could make out of the couple translators I use. The only up side I could see to this is being able to use the SS in floats more easily. Basically, this amounts to lowering the shoulder float and speeding it up a frame or two (I think).

 

It definitely could use speeding up...
About hitting earlier in the animation, this might be a mixed bag - most moves have exe - 1 frame hit - recovery... but they seem to be able to hit at different points in the animation regardless. For example jacky's b+K+G can hit as the heel is descending, which goes into various combos, and can also hit really late in the animation, when the heel is almost grounded. That allows for more hits in combos.
On the other hand an earlier hit would mean more time spent in recovery I'd think.

 

Sarah's new direction.

For me VF4 and now especially Evo marks a significant change in Sarah's desired play style. From VF4 to Evo VerB one by one Sarah's floaters have been lessened to a noticeable degree in favour in my opinion of more ground based techniques and strategies.

Enter the <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color> Stance. Sarah suddenly has a dynamic and aggressive stance which contains a wide range of useful techniques such as a lightning quick Somersault Kick, guard break, Sabaki, a pair of hit and catch throws with a near invincible backflip and every attack height covered by a frame advantageous kick or punch.

Beyond the <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color> many of her non stance moves enter her stance at a considerable frame advantage even when blocked, moving in and out of the stance is simple and effective. Her throws have improved, + guarantees a ground pounce and + is now her strongest throw in her arsenal bar none (61pts) and can be executed out of stance where the same command would produce her previous strongest throw in VF4, thus strengthening her damage potential.

Now, to counter this her floaters have taken a dive. (MC) can now barely get a out of anyone but the light weights. has lost it's float capabilities and is a new move altogether, + no longer reaps a combo with the best follow-ups I've seen to date being: , + or . And the once mighty Dragon Smash Cannon has been weakened in damage, recovery but most importantly height. My guess is that now gives as good a float as (MC) does with the difference being the fomer is weaker, doesn't require a Major counter and since they both have different recovery statistics the combos that are available after both are slightly different.

Add to the above the alterations on + and . The former no longer floats as high and is weaker so when you guess right and MC a low attack you'll probably be only able to execute , <font color="pink">FL:</font color> across the board. While will probably only hit light weights since that too has since been made harder to combo in Evo.

The improvements on +, + and <font color="pink">FL:</font color> benefit the already powerful <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color> stance. and <font color="pink">FL:</font color> being a Special High, + becoming stronger, improved hit detection and staggering properties, and + being a true combo all bode well for Sarah being considered a more aggressive ground based fighter, much like Jacky is.

Ultimately, I'm not adverse to this change but it is distinct from my perspective. Sarah to me is far more a stance fighter now with excellent combo potential than a prime float combo character. She doesn't need to float anymore. I think VF in general is walking away from that template.

 

Re: Sarah's new direction.

Any information about Goh?I can't even see the Kanji to read it on that site

 

Re: Sarah's new direction.

She doesn't need to float anymore. I think VF in general is walking away from that template.

It seems fair to say this, almost everyone who relied on knee combos lost their simple, single-direction-input float starter. Except for the amazing PPPsweep scrubs (lau and pai and aoi) and jeffry, everyone needs either to attack from a crouch or else needs to do a complex input to start float combos.

A complaint one of my friends had early on when VF4 was released (and still has today) is that the difficulty and depth in combos has gone downhill. Slope is no longer a factor, so it's possible to come up with an ideal combo for each weight class and stick with that under all conditions. A lot of float combos mysteriously whiffed due to slope, angle, etc in VF3. That doesn't seem to happen any more.

Then, beyond that, crumple and flop combos hand you your combos on a silver platter... distancing, timing, and counterhit requirements are out the window for no-brainers like lion's b,df+P -> ff+K,K or jeffry's b,f+P -> KKP.
Several flop combos have stance requirements, but only if you want to eke maximum damage out of them. There are always slightly less damaging variants with no requirements.

This trend is still present, and it's too bad. Looking at Sarah only for a second we go from dozens of effective combo enders in VF3 (puntkick-sidekick... PPPK... PPPb+K.... elbow-knee) to one all-purpose combo that is max damage or always close to it in VF4 - df+P,K - kickflip. Never seems to fail if the df+P hits, and its damage surpasses any creative variants you might want to try except df+P,K -> P -> x.

Now we have the valkyrie sword combo, which allows you scrape the opponent off the floor (literally) for a three hit combo ending in a kickflip. It's like df+P,K -> kickflip but without any requirements, not even the tiny float needed for df+P.

 

Re: Sarah's new direction.

I agree with what you say completely. with regard to old flop combos Sarah's old VF4 + fit this point with + only possible from open stance, or buffering or, my favourite: , against light weights from Open stance. She still has the:

float + = Closed

float + = Open

float + = Neutral

But the above requires no brain matter.

Yeah, in all the clips I see is always followed by cancel, while (MC), cancel, is the other standard combo. I've been thinking that the overall toning down of damage for Sarah will go some way to rectifying this. Less damage = more combos, and hopefully a greater potential for more innovative combos since the damage between the cookie cutter combo are less distinct.

Yes the +, <font color="pink">FL:</font color> combos are a walk in the park but they're a bitch to start. + is as slow as molasses, you KNOW how naff + is and then there are it's requirements... <font color="pink">FL:</font color> + is average, only being guaranteed after a successful Sabaki. Then you need to consider the Leg Slicer and Somersault Kick damage reduction, overall making the full string from any of the three starters credible.

With Sarah it's always been about landing that first hit by using good spacing, instinct and reflexes. The combo's simplicity is your reward. This theory is true more so than ever and with the difficulty that's been added to floating in Evo it makes sense to some extent.

I just wish more move were chainable, reduced damage as mentioned before would solve such great combo potential.

Personally, I love to mix up my floats when I'm awake. I frown upon the same thing day in day out but I understand that this is easier said than done in a competitive environment like the arcade. Still, for me there's no better way to finish a combo than with +. Style over Strength any day!

 

Re: Sarah's new direction.

click here for the goh information translated by makatiel in the original ver. B changes thread.

One bit of missing info is that b,f+K (second item) also crumples now on MC. In general goh was improved all around, with the exception of two of his big guns, the knee and the shoulder ram, getting a change in recovery (they're both easier to counter now).
This is fair enough, knee MC leads to over 40% damage while shrm has quite nice recovery (better than akira's) and should at least be throwable with some reliability.

 

Wolf's + not counterable???? This sounds a bit too good.

 

Didn't say uncounterable. Said not as punishable. Might be moved to a point of -11 or 12 frames on block now, bascially making it throw/fast/medium punch counterable now...