Using EDG/ECDG to beat attacks and delayed attacks

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

ICE-9,

Thanks for your post. It's good to talk about techniques in detail, and one doesn't necessary bring the best/most correct thing on the table. A lot of discussions started from your post and many people had a chance to talk about this aspect of the game for your post, so it's a good contribution. Much thx.




Regarding the usage of EDG, it's a new movement option in VF5 and has some potentials with it. I haven't been able to study VF5 much myself so this is just me trying to add some more to the discussion.

As an Akira player, in VF4 when EDG wasn't possible, using ECDG leaves you to recover crouched after succesfully evading your opponent's attack attempt. The best incentive of evading most attacks in VF compared to guarding them is generally there's a lot more guranteed damage potential when you evade a move compared to merely block it.

Now going back to the situation, in VF4 when I use ECDG to evade a move, due to the crouched position upon its completion, I couldn't use 46P(Akira's standing palm) to punish my opponent's whiff or use 42P+G(stumble throw) to throw him. Akira's 42P+G, unlike Kage's, doesn't come out from crouching for some reason, and if you try to buffer 46P in crouch, you'd get double palm.


Now when you implement this new tech in VF5, you would have different offensive options made possible(such as 42P+G or 46P) which you wouldn't be the case if you were just using ECDG. I had a chance to watch the Akira matches on VF5 DVD one day, and I've noticed this tech being used from time to time, which I thought pretty interesting.



Let's keep the discussion going.



maddy


P.S. There are special ways of pulling 46P or 42P+G even in crouched position, but that takes a lot more work and difficult techniques, which are not as practically applicable in a heated match against a touch&fast opponent. Ask me via PM if anyone really wants to know.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I think that what is really interesting on that EDG is the fact that you can do it over and over as EDEDED, because (as in VF4 times) you can cancel dash with evade, but VF5 allows you to cancel evade with dash. I think this is one of the most interestig things on this new stuff; and you can see jpn players preforming this one.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Right on. I didn't want to mention about it as this thread is mainly about defensive tech, but as a stepping tool, I also think that this new addition has a lot of potentials.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Hey guys, thanks for your posts! I think the 0-frame throw really limits the ECD's ability to duck under throws. Here's why:

Situation 1: You are in a position where if the opponent throws you, it's a 0-frame throw. In this situation, for every frame that you are evading in ECD, the 0-frame throw will always win because you are considered crouching only at the 17th frame. In fact, by definition, if you are in a 0-frame throw situation it is impossible to crouch dash an instantaneous throw!

Situation 2: So let's say it's a situation where if the opponent throws you, the 12 frame throw comes out instead. For you to be able to ECD under the throw, you must have at least +5 frame advantage (12 + 5 = 17 frames). But who tries to throw when they are at -5? Ah, but you say, how about delayed throw attempts? But here's the thing -- if the throw attempt is delayed, you then come to a 0-frame throw situation!!

If you think about both situations above, you quickly realize that ducking a throw attempt with ECD will almost never happen. The reason you don't experience this in VF4 is because there is no 0-frame throw in VF4.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

That's exactly the point! EDG EDG EDG EDG is in fact more than jut stepping, it is a defensive technique! Go ahead and test this. Get an opponent to attack you with only high/middle attacks, preferably those that take more than 13 frames to execute. If you do EDG as fast as possible and hit check, you should never get hit by the attacks, even when they are delayed.

That's because 1) if you EDG after the opponent attacks, you get a successful evade; 2) if you EDG before the opponent attacks (or if the attack is circular/semi-circular), you can recover and guard BEFORE the attack can hit you. Brilliant right!?!?!?

ECDG works similarly, except it has an 18 frame window of vulnerability versus EDG with a 13 frame window of vulnerability.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Do you need EDG EDG? Isn't ED ED enough? You know, is it better to put there short guard frames, or DM more quickly? Or are this two steps the same one in real?

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Can you e > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif & hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif? Or e > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif & break throws too?

(not at the game right now)

edit: 46P from crouch? let the lever go to nuetral before P.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

What you described is ARE, not ECD. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I also asked the question about ECD in VF4 to demonstrate that it cannot be used in the same way as in VF5. You should not use ECD to avoid both attacks and throws--it doesn't work because of the 0-frame throw. I hope that's obvious now.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

ARE involves an attack...

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Beating both dpalm and throw after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif requires ARE, not ECD (in Evo/FT at least). I wasn't sure if Myke made a typo or was referring to the original VF4. I assumed the former though since Evo/FT should be our reference points for VF4.

I was just about to edit my original response to Myke with the above to avoid confusion but you beat me to it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Hmmm...don't know. I guess technically you can cancel a dash with an evade. And you can cancel an evade with a dash. Does that mean you can continuously cancel evades into dashes and dashes into evades? I tried it for about 10 seconds and found it pretty hard to pull off.

So for consistency reasons I would recommend EDG EDG EDG instead of EDEDED.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

See my response to s_aki. Correct me if I'm wrong but you must use ARE to defend against attacks and throws after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif normal hit. ECD won't work. That was an inconsistency in your post that threw me off on whether you meant ARE or ECD.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This part I'm not sure about since not having the game yet means I can't test. But, when you refer to the 0f throw, are you talking about a delayed throw? Because, if you're talking about the fastest throw (from recovery), then it will not be 0f. If you are talking about a delayed throw, then this is where I need to test on ps3, because I was under the assumption that if you're in the motion of crouching -- even if not fully crouched yet -- then you can't be 0f thrown. Reason being is that you're not in an "idle" state. </div></div>

That might be true -- but consider that the earliest moment to cancel out of the evade is on the 11th frame. You'd expect that opponents will try to throw you when they have the advantage. So let's say you're at -1 when the opponent tries to throw you. 1 frame disadvantage + 11 frames to cancel out of the failed evade = 12 frames = normal throw execution time. You will still get thrown. When you are at worse than -1 the timing is even more against you.

The more I think about it, the more I do think AM2 specifically designed the system to be this way.

However way you cut it ECD isn't that useful of a defensive technique in terms of avoiding throws and attacks. I'd argue it wasn't even that useful in Evo/FT.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

IIRC, ECD works in -3 or below in VF4(ver.C) against a nitaku. You could crouch dash under a throw even in -3.

ECDG loses to a non-delayed throw in Evo. So, ECDG doesn't work to beat a nitaku in disadvantage any more in Evo or FT.




Regarding the 0-frame throw, Yanaga explained it with an example in the Blackbook. Basically, he said when you block a LP and go for an immidiate throw when the opponent chooses to evade right away, the 0-frame throw'd happen. I still have no clue how this works in terms of frame wise, and I don't have a PS3 to test it on.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

This is interesting and I'd like to understand why. I know that if the opponent chooses to evade right away, he is standing pretty much instantly. But going by the rules of 0frame throws, technically after the LP is guarded, the 10 frame safe window is still in effect. If what yanaga said is true, I wonder if it's because going from crouch status to a standing status instantly resets this safe window.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I think Maddy is saying that ECD doesn't work for Evo/FT against throws, and that it works only in VF4 version C in small disadvantage. The former is what I have been saying, and I think you've been putting forth the latter.

I got the 11 frame stat from Shou-san, who I assume got it from a magazine or some other credible source.