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Using EDG/ECDG to beat attacks and delayed attacks

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by ice-9, Mar 9, 2007.

Page 4 of 5
  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Myke623
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    Myke623
    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Fair enough, the effectiveness of ECD alone was reduced but it evolved into ARE and VIP. I only brought up ECD in the context of guarding against either an immediate or delayed attack, something which I think the ECD will do just as well but also has the benefit of ducking a delayed throw (which I'm assuming wouldn't be 0f since you're not idle). Again, I don't have the game, so I can't test, blah blah etc.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got the 11 frame stat from Shou-san, who I assume got it from a magazine or some other credible source. </div></div>
    Shut up, just shut up. You had me at "Shou-san" ... LMAO! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
     
    Myke, Mar 12, 2007
    #61
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Myke623
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    Myke623
    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    I just wanted to add...

    If you can cancel at the 11th frame of a failed evade, that doesn't necessarily mean you can guard by the 13th frame. In FT, there was an additional 3 frames of recovery added to any failed evade that was cancelled. If the same holds true, then EDG is more vulnerable than you thought, and probably not so great against elbow, upper or middle class launchers? Again, this should be tested.

    When I think of a defensive technique, I'm thinking about covering my ass against an attack/throw nitaku, and attack/delay-attack doesn't concern me as much.

    In fact, wouldn't delayed throws (to get a 0f throw) be more viable an option now in 5? Because if they are, then an ECD could be useful against that as well.
     
    Myke, Mar 12, 2007
    #62
  3. maddy

    maddy Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    I made a mistake in my original post by omitting something. The situation is when you block a LP and then go for a high P. Your opponent evades your high P by buffering evade or ECDG of some sort after his LP got blocked. In this situation, you can initiate the zero frame throw by immidiately going for a throw. That's what Yanaga said in the Blackbook. Sorry for the confusion guys.


    Anyone with PS3, please try this to see how this works. If this doesn't work either...hmm...blame Yanaga or something. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
     
    maddy, Mar 12, 2007
    #63
  4. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
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    Akai JC
    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Hmm last night, I also set the cpu to evade my standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and throwing afterwords. I still get the "tsukami" throw.

    I can't really test the 1) guard low punch, 2) have standing P evade, 3) attempt throw by myself.

    The text was somewhat confusing (my knowledge of Japanese is horrible), but in theory, taking into account they mention specificially how:

    1) Akira's standing P is 26 frames...
    2) low P block is -5 frames. Attempt to throw after blocking low P will be a tuskami throw.
    3) Standing P is evaded by opponent. Successful evade situation...26-(21-5) = 10 frame advantage for opponent...

    Since Standing P is whiffed and by the time the animation of you and the opponent is finished, Akira would be able to do 0-frame throw since 10 frame window after low P is blocked is over. If Maddy's interpretation is correct. Which means...at a disadvantage, Akira would get a 0-frame throw that would beat the opponent's tsukami throw (one of the situations in which a tsukami throw occurs is after a successful evade situation)???

    That would be interesting...
     
    akai, Mar 12, 2007
    #64
  5. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    The cpu doesn't 0f frame when you set it to block and throw. Infact it always does 12f frames. The only way to test it properly is to get a second player on the controller. This is another problem of the training mode.

    One thing I found quite interesting is that if you do P kick cancel with any character and the CPU throws. You're protected even if you just stand there and hold guard. The opponents throw goes straight through you. I know it's off topic but interesting none the less.
     
    Jide, Mar 12, 2007
    #65
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    From my understanding, CPU and players can't do 0-frame throws after a move is blocked or on normal hit. You will always get the 12-frame throw even if the move guarded put you over 12 frame disadvantage. After complete animation of the move + 10 extra frames, will 0-frame throw occur.
     
    akai, Mar 12, 2007
    #66
  7. DancingFighterG

    DancingFighterG Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Ok, after reading this whole thread I've conclude this:

    ECD is good for being safe after a failed evade. You still have to deal with throws but you are safe from free hits

    ECDG is good for evading crouch dashing under high attacks and being safe after a failed evade. It is also good for delay throw setups.

    The only thing I don't understand is how this technique would work well against aggressive opponents or pokers? If they are very aggressive once you evade and block your back where you started as if you just stood there. Correct me if I am wrong on this?
     
    DancingFighterG, Mar 12, 2007
    #67
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    It's possible, but testing would be needed. Unfortunately this is where I really miss Evo's training mode...one needs a human opponent to test the above.

    Even if EDG has another couple of frames tacked to it though I'm not too concerned. It's pretty hard to hit a 12 frame punch in a 13-16 frame window...you'd have to delay the attack just 1-4 frames after the opponent does EDG. That timing is so tight I don't even think it's practical in a real fight. I'd rather just dash in and throw if I think the opponent is trying to EDG/ECDG.
     
    ice-9, Mar 12, 2007
    #68
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    The benefit comes when you do EDG on time (i.e. after an opponent attacks). You'll get the successful evade and you should be able to punish your opponent (exceptions are /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif generally).

    The magic of the EDG (and to a lesser degree EDCG) is that even if you do not do EDG on time (i.e. before an opponent attacks) you are still safe.
     
    ice-9, Mar 12, 2007
    #69
  10. DancingFighterG

    DancingFighterG Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Ok, I see!! Thanks ice-9
     
    DancingFighterG, Mar 12, 2007
    #70
  11. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yo, this is DancingFighterG.</div></div>

    Must this be your trademark? Would it be possible to accept that perhaps we know who is posting by the avatar and name listed to the left?
     
    Llanfair, Mar 12, 2007
    #71
  12. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Must this be your trademark? Would it be possible to accept that perhaps we know who is posting by the avatar and name listed to the left?

    </div></div>

    Yo, this is Srider. I agree with what Llanfair said.
     
    Pai_Garu, Mar 12, 2007
    #72
  13. DancingFighterG

    DancingFighterG Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Sorry guys!! It has too stay but I do thank all of you helping in this game. I've learned so much. Maybe one day I get a chance to play the experts. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     
    DancingFighterG, Mar 13, 2007
    #73
  14. danny13

    danny13 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    I think I'm finally getting wat you mean. I got to test it out on Freddie.
     
    danny13, Mar 14, 2007
    #74
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Nice!
     
    ice-9, Mar 14, 2007
    #75
  16. Tiamat

    Tiamat Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Yo, this is Tiamat. That's just what DancingFighterG does and there isn't anything else to it. ^_^

    as for the topic, haven't read all of it but very nice discovery ice I'm gonna try to use this
     
    Tiamat, Mar 14, 2007
    #76
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Thanks Tiamat. I'm changing the thread title to make it more descriptive--"super defensive techniques" doesn't really say much and is probably a little misleading. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
     
    ice-9, Mar 14, 2007
    #77
  18. comoesa2

    comoesa2 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    nice tech...definately will use this when playing
     
    comoesa2, Mar 16, 2007
    #78
  19. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    i read this thread~

    so.., i came up with these assumptions:

    1)EDG ~ isnt necesarily ideal for disadvantage, and i dont consider it a defensive tech. if you want to push the borderline of getting garanteed strikes off evade rather than advantage off a blocked attack, then i'd consider it agressive. it also doesnt deal with throwing~ which is pretty essential to a defensive stratergy.

    2)ECDG isnt as effective as fuzzy guard, and i think moreso in VF5 where throws are avoided by duck. the fuzzy step i used to use in VF4 wasnt about nitaku, it was about freeroam movement where you was at 0 frames trying to avoid surprize options. if we are talking about the movement system in VF5 i think the G system is good for spacing abit like VF3, if we can consider 0-frame throws will be in substancial use, VF5 has a larger movement span to keep at a good range as well as avoid a good distance game (i.e wolf's ff+p+k).

    im aware that ECD used to be a good defense in previous VF4, but i think if you really want to play the game with a tight defense, then a good fuzzy guard will get you a long way.

    but then i dont have the game so i cant try anything further blah blah blah etc.
     
    BK__, Mar 18, 2007
    #79
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

    Yeah dude you got to try it in VF5 to really understand it...
     
    ice-9, Mar 18, 2007
    #80
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