Using Sarah's charge attack

I've just completed adding my comments about Sarah's Crush Tornado to the wiki here.

What do you think? Do you have another use for the Crush Tornado that I've missed? Am I the only one screwing around with this powerful move?

 

After /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif you can back crouch dash twice and then charge crush tornado. You will be out of your opponents wake up kick range and have plenty of time to charge crush tornado the full way.

Kaminari_Oyaji showed me that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I'll add it to the okizeme advice. Thanks.
(Hope you feel better.)

 

I found a vid that uses the charge kick and nets a r.o. on a half wall arena.
http://ria444.blog81.fc2.com/
It's the 2nd vid down from the top. It's at the very end of the match.

Charge attack (Stagger):
<u>Mix-up</u>
-9p+g
-4k+g
-2k+g
-3k+g
-3k


It's all depending on where you charge and assuming opponent doesn't rising attack. Also, assuming opponent understands how to shake properly and guard right after. Main key is to mixup as much as you can and create conditioning. Plus after using 46p+g opens up evasion possibilites to opponents back. It's been awhile since I tested it out, so I could be wrong. Last time I checked it was face up head towards and feet away after the throw. It also nets you -6 on block if that was the correct body position. I'll test it this weekend when I get some freetime and add more. I highly recommend studying the rising attack portion of vf as it opens many new avenues.

Peace^-^

 

Got a chance and tested out 46p+g and yes it is evadable to the opponets back if they are atempting a mid rising attack. Also, 64p+g allows evasion to the back as well. This lead me back to my original idea of researching the mid rising game and I found something new.
<u>Sarah's: kp vs. mid rising</u>
I remember awhile ago there was a topic brought up about being able to relaunch an opponent from mid rising if you knew where and when to apply the move. The move had to be something in the range of 20 something points in damage to accomplish this task, so I set out and only used 33k in my experimenting. It seemed almost impossible and most of the time I could do it 30% of the time and so I gave up the journey.
Today, I have found that sarah's kp is three times as easy to accomplish this task and adds more strength to her rushdown game. The idea that it works on regular hit makes it even more attractive to learn as a new weapon. If any of you have the time please try it out and let me know if you can apply it to your game.

Peace^-^

 

K_O, I'm confused /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

This intrigues me, and I'd like to investigate more myself. Are you saying above that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will interrupt a mid rising attack after either the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif throws? I'm assuming that the thrown character is attacking you in place. What about if they roll away or to the side?

I may have a better option... (need to test more myself) and I'm not talking about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. I just can't get the timing consistently with it in VF5. Although if it's combo potential is greater in ver C, I may have to practice more... =)

 

I'm saying a mid rising attack in general can be beaten by sarah's kp if your timming is right. The tradeoff to me is worth it and using kp vs using dragon smash cannon is alot easier. As far as tech roll mid rising or any other addition plus a mid rising attack I have not tested out yet. Just set the cpu to attack mid rising after knockdown and you will see where kp needs to be placed to get the float. It may take a little time, but you will get it. Lemme know when you do and what your thoughts are on it. To me, it seems a great way to condition your opponent to stop mid rise attacking and thus shutting down an option. Reminds me of how aoi has the same effect to opponents.

Peace^-^

 

I think it depends on the downed position. I really don't think it's worth going toe to toe with circular mid riser with anything other than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is I had the choice.

However you can force the sabaki situation on your opponent after two useful throws, sweep, and any move that puts you in a spiral in the air. This is IMO is a powerful way to get your opponent to stop rising attack altogether and to make him eat another throw etc.

 

I will test this out with all body positions and get back to all of you.

 

Getting back to this thread's original subject:

After some testing tonight, here's my suggestions for mix up when the charge attack is blocked. My suggestions are pretty much completely dependent on the skill level of your opponent--
i.e. does he recognize the situation
> does he realize he can struggle
> how fast can he struggle if he does.
<ul>[*]1- little to no struggling- /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif > FL/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (56 pts)
Against any player I am facing for the first time, I would always use this option first to evaluate their knowledge of the situation. The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will float a staggering opponent. Furthermore, you have time to hit check it and use different flamingo options (FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or FL 270 throw) if you find your opponent is not clueless.[*]2- some struggling- throw
I recommend #1 first because if your opponent does not struggle at all, then you have to delay your throw input. You cannot throw a staggering opponent. Even the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif whiffs. You can forward dash before throwing to create the needed delay, but as far as I can tell, you're already in throw range == immediate Sweet Pain (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif)[*]3- he's Japanese (fastest struggle)- /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > throw
This might actually supersede #2. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is guaranteed after the charge attack's guard stagger, even vs. the fastest struggling. A /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will also knock your opponent out of his stagger, so there's no worry of a throw whiffing. However, the throw is not guaranteed AFAIK. Your opponent should be able to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif out of it. Leading to:[*]4- /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > combo
Which I would use against an opponent who knows to struggle and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to avoid being thrown.[/list]
The damage potential of Kaminari_Oyaji's last 3 suggestions are too little IMO to use them. All of my suggestions should net you over 51 pts.

Sarah fans: Work the charge attack into your game. It's worth the effort.

 

Dashing knee okizeme

Now returning to K_O's okizeme... I don't get where you're going with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif vs. mid rising attacks. Can you give a specific example where this works? I always get hit by the rising attack when I try the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

However, I have this to offer:

After Sarah's throws which leave your opponent lying sideways (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) or after her turn toward sweep (you'll see why this is important later) you can use some old school VF3 dashing knee okizeme.

The important thing is to goad your opponent into doing a rising attack. What you should do after the throw or sweep is to continuously dash forward (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif) this will keep you right on top of the fallen character and hopefully entice them to rise with an attack. If they do a rising attack in place, the dashing knee will often interrupt a mid rising kick, but will pass thru a low rising kick, leaving Sarah back turned, but with enough advantage to minor counter sweep, and the process can start again.

If your opponent side rolls then does a rising attack, (the best scenario for Sarah,) the dashing knee causes the rising attack (mid or low) to whiff everytime. TT low sweep and repeat.

The only time you should not go for the dashing knee is when your opponent does a back roll away from Sarah. The dashing knee can still eat a low rising attack, but will lose to a mid rising attack. If they back roll escape, stop your forward dashing by G-cancelling and try to wait just out of rising attack range. You can then punish a whiffed rising attack with a dashing knee or b+P+K flamingo pressure/combo.

Now the fun part, IMO. Your opponent can quick rise after getting hit by the TT sweep, so after you hit with a TT sweep, repeated forward dash. If they don't quick rise, follow the advice above. If they quick rise, they will think you are going to do a dashing knee again and will stand and guard== you can do your throw of choice.

Cheers.

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

I will get a chance to test this out tomorrow, so please be patient. I don't have the freetime to do this until the weekend. The reason why you can't get kp to work against mid rising is because your timming is off. I never said it was easy to do. As a matter of fact, it's very hard to do. I just said that I used to use 33k before, but now kp works instead and it's easier. You have to input just as you see the hips off the opponent move. I'll post up more after tomorrow.

Just keep practicing..

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

Whoa, I think this is getting a little too theory based now. It's cool to know /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is easier to interrupt mid riser than dragon smash cannon but yeah I think I'll stick to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (which is getting an upgrade in the 360 version anyway). 9 hit frames is too damn good to pass up. Leaves alot of room for human error.

Question for you two guys with the PS3.

When you knock an opponent feet towards, face up. Can you OM around them to make it head towards, face up in time that you can do a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif sabaki to pwn wake up risers?

Test it for me pretty pretty please? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Cause if so, PWNAGE!

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

Sounds evil... you're assuming they don't quick rise, right? What attacks would you like to test it after? Maybe after a throw that leaves them lying sideways compared to Sarah-- you would only have to OM once then, and there's no chance to quick rise. I will definately look into this when I have a spare moment. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

K_O: No rush at all... it's better to be factual about this kind of stuff than to just give vague descriptions of how/why something you do works.

I agree with Dan that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will be the rising attack interrupter of choice in ver C, but I'm always open to new ideas and variety... it always helps to throw something new at a familiar opponent.

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

<u>kp vs. mid rising</u>
<u>Move to setup with/body position:</u>

I. p+g/face down, head towards.
II. 46p+g/face up,head towards.
III. 8k+g/face up,feet towards.
IV. Side throw then om back to front/face down,feet towards.
(IV was hard finding a move to get the position, sorry.)
<u>Side note:</u>Seems backroll,sideroll, and delay works.

<u>In a combo or constant flow try:</u>
4k+g,p,2k,k. wait for mid rising and kp.

While doing this I stumbled upon Unsafe_Dan's idea of experimenting with multi om movement.
p+g,om down wait a sec and then om up as opponent does mid rising and they whiff. It leaves them open and your very close, so I just chose sweet pain buffered.

As a result, I just added the two and asked myself what I get off of two mid risings say if the opponent was pissed and they didn't stop mid rising.

4k+g,p,2k,k-om down wait sec and then om up (they mid rise and whiff), buffer sweet pain and wait for the kp timming then add float combo of choice. All together it adds to 51+60+63 assuming opponet mid rises twice in this scenario.

<u>Misc while experimenting the same night(nothing to do with kp):</u>
8k+g(normal hit),44p,g-cancel,9 hold k(jumping backwards) and wait for mid air release. If mid riser is attacking you should hit them and have a free pk right away. I know if you get the hit on the right frame as a kp relaunch the opponent floats and you can get a small crossup combo. Kinda funny when you think about it. It's a 2-d crossover in a 3-d game. Worked in vf4 and might only work on bodies laying sideways in 5, but I need more time to find the right move leading up to this setup.

<u>Close to the wall:</u>
66k+g(stagger),66+k(wall splat),6p+k,p,k,33k,3k.
This one is probably old, but it's juicy.

That's it for me right now...
Tired....zzzzzzzzz
Peace^-^

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

Hey guys I made a page on the WIKI concerning okizeme for Sarah, some crazy stuff there Tim. Btw, not to be overaly demanding but can you possibly make a vid showing what you're talking about, sounds crazy and I want to see what it looks like.

 

Re: Dashing knee okizeme

Thanks, the OM up then OM down to confuse the rising attacker's rising attack direction sounds useful. Need to wrap my head around it, but it sounds nice. How does it perform against low rising attacks? I have a feeling it loses to them, but will look into it.

Dan, reguarding your initial question of using OM to position yourself so that you can sabaki a mid rising attack vs. face up, head near position, it does work. If I forgoe the ground kick after a f,db+P+G throw, and OM toward the head of the downed opponent, P+K will sabaki a mid rising attack, but P+K loses to a rising sweep.

I don't think you'd ever be able to do 2 OM's in the same direction, however, to get from the feet side to the head side of a fallen opponent. It feels like you can cancel an OM with another OM to do 2 (or more) rapidly, but you have to wait for the OM to recover to do any attack other than the built in OM P or K. Furthermore, AFAIK, your opponent can quick rise from any face up, feet toward knock down. So you're not likely to see it often.

Maybe worthwhile to screw with Akira when he lies face up and sideways in front of Sarah. OM towards his head, and P+K will beat both his mid and low rising attacks.
<shrug>