Vanessa Faq, Second Draft

Discussion in 'Vanessa' started by Guest, Jun 16, 2002.

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    Vanessa Faq, Second Draft, Second Half

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    Step 3 - Stringing Moves Together / Defining Flowcharts
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    For this section I think I may make note of a couple of Vanessa Videos that I have enjoyed, for the sake of examples.
    If you cannot get the clips, don't worry, as they are only to give you a visual example, and aren't necessary for learning.
    To find the clips go to this link: http://www.feixaq.com/vf4/media.html
    Under the section of Latest Files (depending how old this Faq is it might be in Japanese clips section) look for the subheading of Daioh Field Tournament Clips and then find the 9th Daioh Cup clip #6, which should be titled daioh_hi02420_6.wmv
    http://zzipper.x-y.net/nick/nomercy/vs027.html and download vsdd14.wmv for a Vanessa player called Rivian
    http://zzipper.x-y.net/nick/nomercy/vs033.html looking for vsse05.wmv for a Vanessa player named Kiro
    http://www.feixaq.com/vf4/media.html and download daioh_1-19noji8.wmv from the Daioh section, and also go to the Amusement act section and locate 0329-will_devi and 0329-will_gasyuin.

    That's all the clips im going to suggest right now, although there are plenty of them out there. If you have a fast internet connect and some space on your computer I suggest you get as many clips as you can. They are a great tool for learning. I wish I had video capture equipment so I could make my own clips to accompany this Faq. Once again I would like to remind you that it isn't necessary to download any of the clips, but its a benefit if you can.

    If you really like to see great players in action I suggest you download tonnes of them. Even clips of other players and characters can be helpful, as it can prepare you for what high level opponents might attempt against you, as well as showing how people handle situations with and against a multitude of characters.

    A Quick definition of Flow Charts, and Set Ups for the uninitiated: Flow Charting is a method of reviewing your most viable options after specific situations. You are determining what moves best 'flow' after one another in terms of frames and special properties. Good flow charting will allow you to keep a reference of useful follow-ups for most any situations so you will never have to sit there wondering what move you should try to use next. Your goal when think of flow chart options are few. Firstly you want to find the follow-up with the greatest chance of success, then the follow-up that will give you the most damage, or frame advantage, and also finding which follow-ups lead to special situations, like floats, crumples, or slams that can lead to extra damage.


    Basic Flow Charting can be as simple as keeping these pointers in mind:

    When your opponent is content to guard standing up --> Throw him, or hit him with a low strike (like db+K, or d+K,P,P). Also try baiting your opponent into letting go of the guard, by intentionally letting him block a move that gives you the advantage, like P+K,P or MT f+P,P,K. With the P+K,P you want him to guard the whole thing and then attempt a counter hit, which you can stomp using a quicker poke, since you have the advantage. In the case of the MT f+P,P,K you will try to use delays, or cancelling the combo short to make him feel that you are done, and he can retaliate. Lastly, you can attempt a guard stagger or break on an opponent who is content to stand and guard. K+G, or b,b+K+G (charged) and db+K (charged) will knock person out of their guarding status for a follow-up.

    When your opponent is crouching --> hit him with a mid hit or string which will often cause a stagger or knockdown, or you can low throw him. When the crouch is for the purpose of setting up a low hit or a throw you can use db+K+G to float him, or db+P (d+P in MT) to low sabaki him.

    If your opponent goes on the offensive --> Jab, DS df+P, low punch, sabaki, reversal, evade, utilize a move with evasive properties (such as /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P vs linear attacks, or db+K or d+K+G against high hits). Your reaction will depend on the type of attack that he attempts. But in general, Vanessa has an answer for just about every attack your opponent will do, that will put you back on the offence.

    If your opponent is trying to create distance ---> f,f+K is a great tool to punish backdashers. P,P,P,K string or P,P,K can follow your opponent backwards often to keep pressure on. Also b,f+P+K,P and f,f+P+K,P travel forward well. You can also crouch dash towards him and attempt to nail him with a throw or ws+P or MT f+P+K.

    If your opponent is trying to reduce distance ---> often your opponent will try to come forward when you backdash. but whatever the reason, when your opponent tries to get closer: Low hit him. Moving forward and blocking low isnt the easiest thing to do, and people leave themselves open to attacks like d+K+G and d+K,P,P. Also use /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P often, as a quick rush towards you will often mean a linear attack is coming. You can also use moves which will bring you back out of range, such as b,b+K+G and b+K if you would like to maintain a distance. Finally, a quick poke of any height can be added during the moments when your opponent is moving forward without blocking, to be followed up with the appropriate flow chart.

    Below is a really loose guide to what you can use to counter an incoming hit at certain frame advantages/disadvantages. When deciding these things i went by two factors: Firstly, whether or not a throw attempt is guaranteed, and secondly, whether your follow-up will beat, or be beaten by a low punch. I use the low punch as the example opponent follow-up because it is a very common move, and one of the quicker and more irritating moves that you will see abused. Naturally if your opponent is prone to using a particular follow-up with a longer execution time, you can alter your flow chart to reflect this, giving you more moves which could counter hit him.

    Bear in mind that this is more of a counter hitting guide, than an example of proper flow charting.

    When you are put at -8 or more frames prepare yourself to escape a throw. If he follows with a hit you can attempt a sabaki, or reversal or evade or block or duck etc, but you are at such a disadvantage that you really have to be on the defensive. If you are much more than -8 frames, or staggered, you need to block, or prepare to escape a throw, and pray.

    At -5 to -7 frames your opponent might feel like throwing you, or attacking with a relatively fast strike, in which case you should focus on your sabaki attacks ( b,f+K,P and db+P or MT d+P) You can also try a reversal in this situation if your opponent doesn't seem likely to attempt the throw.

    -3 to -4 frames and your df+P will still beat a couple followups. Depending on your opponent you may want to focus on destroying a low punch follow-up. All your defensive manoeuvres can still be utilized at this disadvantage. Slow follow-ups by your opponent can be capitalized upon using pokes in the 12-16 frame range, but use with caution.

    When you have -2 to +1 frames of advantage try df+P, or d+P, /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P vs. slower linear attacks. And of course, use any of your defensive moves if the need arises. You can also use quick mids in this situation if you believe your opponent will try a slower follow-up. Standing Jab in both stances is decent, but be wary of opponents trying to low punch.

    At +2 to +3 frames you can get in your ws+P before most attacks of your opponents. df+K will also beat most attacks, especially when at +3 frames. From this you can also use your standing, and crouching jabs. In MT stance you can hit with the f+P elbow and do so quicker than an opponents low punch. Also, the MT f+P+K elbow should be considered.

    At +4 to +5 frames you can get away with df+K easily, and also the f+P back knuckle. The stopping low kick d+K,P,P will also just barely make it as a counter at +5 frames vs. a low punch.

    +6-7 at this point both the P+K,P and db+P will get through most follow-ups. In MT stance you may even be able to score a counter with MT df+P for a float at this advantage.

    +8-10 frames is high throw time, since you cannot be hit out of the throw at that point, the opponent can only hope to escape it.

    +11 or more and you can start throwing out whatever you want, im not going to list all the viable options. Just look to the frame stats and determine what will beat 12 + the advantage you have in frames, which will generally allow you to counter whatever your opponent throws at you.


    Flowcharting after some individual moves:
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    In general, you can use any of the follows listed in the line above the one your reading as well.

    P - blocked ---> d+P, df+P, P, the string (P,K, or P,P,K to finish, hoping to trick him)
    P - Connect ---> throw, P, String, d+P, db+K, df+K, cd,n+P, df+P
    P - Counter ---> Throw, String, d+P, db+K, df+K, cd,n+P, f+P(string), P+K,P, sabaki

    d+P - blocked ---> ws+P, Throw, d+P, fc+K, gu+P, Sabaki, reversal
    d+P - Connect ---> ws+P, Throw, ws+K, fc+K, gu+P
    d+P - Counter ---> throw, ws+P, etc

    ws+P - Blocked ---> Sabaki, reverval, cut-in sabaki, d+P, P, db+K, ETEG
    ws+P - Connect ---> Throw, P, d+P, gu+P, sabaki, df+K
    ws+P - Counter ---> f,f+P,P, df+[k], P+K,P, f,f+K, f,f+K+G, f,f+P+K, db+K+G

    db+K - mostly the same as d+P

    df+K - blocked ---> sabaki, df+P, low punch or db+K to avoid high reprisals. Reversal, or go on defense.
    df+K - connect ---> jab, d+P
    df+K - counter or stagger ---> f+P,K,K, f,f+K, f,f+P,P, f,f+K+G, throw

    P+K,P - blocked ---> ws+P, low punch, jab, df+K
    P+K,P - connect ---> any of the above, or f+P,K,K, or d+K,P,P
    P+K,P - counter ---> throw, /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P, f,f+K

    b,f+K,P - blocked ---> see P+K,P above
    b,f+K,P - connect ---> same as blocked
    b,f+K,P - counter ---> Float, See the combo section if the kick counters, or df+K, f+P,k,k, d+K,P,P, P+K,P, or also try df+P+K to force a crouch
    b,f+K,P - sabaki ---> generally the same as a hit


    MT STANCE

    P - blocked ---> d+P, another jab, f+P or f+P+K to try and catch a slow followup
    P - connect ---> Throw, not guaranteed by any means, but works surprisingly well.
    P - counter ---> Throw, /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P, df+K, sweep, or low hits such at d+K,P,P, also K,K,P,P

    d+P - blocked ---> another d+P vs low pokes, evade, or defend or crouch
    d+P - connect ---> f+P, df+K, low throw
    d+P - counter ---> low throw, K,K,P,P, /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P

    f+P - blocked ---> continue with P,K using delays, d+P vs low, Jab vs slower counters, and defensive techniques
    f+P - connect ---> continue combo, and use above
    f+P - counter ---> same as above, or f+P again or f+P+K


    You will by now note that a great deal of my focus is on maintaining a frame advantage, aswell as using safe, quick moves to avoid leaving holes in your defence. This will help you to play a less dangerous game, but it may very well make you boring. Every player needs to learn when to take chances on bigger, and flashier moves. They not only can score big damage, but add both variety, and excitement to your matches.

    For example, the Bay Area player M_3 in the bavf0518-m3.wmv clip that I suggested above used the very slow and awkward K+G to catch his opponent at she was rising from a techroll. The opponent guarded instinctively, and, due to the K+G being a guard staggering move, the Vanessa Player was able to land a powerful string of hits, for the win.

    Some moves will just plain work on a person, despite being considered too slow or too obvious by me. f,f+K+G and f,f+P+K for example may just catch some people unaware. It is important to experiment with all of your moves, to discover what will work in any given situation. I am just giving you some of the safer options in the above sections. It is up to you to discover the appropriate times to take risks against your opponents.

    Some ideas to try are d+P+K against a techroller; db+K+G when you stagger your opponent; b,f+P+K,P on a rising opponent; MT b,f+P,P,P,K (whole, or part) during an attack rush, try out your hit throws from mid range, or f+K hit throw up close when you have +3 frames, or when you see a slower move (16+ frames, so not too slow) being executed; MT f+K,K,P as a counter, or to mixup your strings; MT f,f+P+K,P,P on a rising enemy; MT f+K+G during a stagger, or when the opponent is forced back (follow with a pounce).


    OKIZEME SECTION
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    This will be a small section discussing how to put pressure on a downed or rising opponent, and how to tack on extra damage while someone is prone.

    At any point in time when you are near your opponent and he is lying on the ground you can use the df+K soccer kick to add extra damage. Particularily useful after throws which do not allow techrolling away.

    If your opponent is slammed into the ground, or bounces off of a wall in the way described in Trial Training Mode, you can attempt to add the u+P pounce maneouvre which will add about 25 damage. Also, when they collapse from a crumple you can land this move.

    If your opponent will rise with a Low Rising Kick (d+K) you can hop over his attack, and often score a counterhit with db+K+G. This move goes over low hits like the rising kick and can net you float damage aswell.
    Another way to defeat this move is with the elbow sabaki attack (db+P in DS, d+P in MT). As it will sabaki the sweep for you.

    If your opponent will rise with a Mid Rising Kick (K) you can avoid and counter attack with a well timed b,b+K+G remember that you can charge this move to delay it. It may be necessary to add this move onto a backdash to get enough distance to make the opponents kick whiff (b,b,b+K+G)
    A properly timed f,f+K can also disrupt the rising kicks.
    Also, if your opponent is in one of the following positions while on the ground - FUHT, FDHA, or FDHT if the opponent rolls to the side first - You can reverse the rising mid Kick from those positions. Any other position will result in a full circular rising kick, which you cannot reverse.
    When your opponent techrolls you can use a move like df+K or f,f+K to strike him while he is vulnerable (df+K, or f+K, in MT) either trying for crouch stagger, or a knockdown. Also you could attempt to throw him. Low throws at this time are very successful, because, as you should know, techrollers recover in the crouching position for a moment. This means there is a small period of time in which a low throw could connect if you catch your opponent with his guard down. You could also attempt a high throw, if your opponent stands and blocks after a techroll, believing a strike is coming.

    Some other possible moves to do while an opponent is rising are f,f+K+G,f+P+G or K+G, or f,f+P+K,P. Bear in mind each of these moves are incredibly risky. The idea with them is to try to catch your opponent just as he rises to he panics and blocks high instinctively. The K+G if blocked will give you the chance for more damage, due to its guard stagger property, while the other two attacks also wreck people who are blocking high.


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    Step Four - Learning Through Examples
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    To further help understand the choices you will have to make in a battle, i think I will use this section to give my input on the video clips.

    Go to http://zzipper.x-y.net/nick/nomercy/vs027.html and download vsdd14.wmv

    First to be discussed is this battle between Nick (Jeffrey) and Rivian (Vanessa)

    Bear in mind that many of the choices made in the videos could very well be based on the players personal knowledge, and experience against the other man, and my insight is only one possible reasoning behind the movements.

    The match begins and the Vanessa's First Move is to crouch dash away, which has the bonus of luring the enemy towards her, and avoiding high hits and throws, which Jeffrey (her opponent) is great with. The Jeffrey player seemingly falls into Vanessa's trap, as his first action upon the start of the match is to dash up and attempt a throw. The Vanessa, who is in the crouching position avoids the throw, and retaliates with a ws+P. Unfortunately the move is begun a bit late to minor counter, and the throws execution and recovery time is small enough, that the Jeffrey is able to block it. This puts the Vanessa Player at -4 frames. The Jeffrey player momentarily pauses before beginning what he hopes would be a counter hit f+K (execution of 17 frames), while the Vanessa player, concentrating on her offence begins a f+P,K,K string as soon as she recovers (16 frames to execute the f+P). Because of the pause by the Jeffrey player, the f+P connects as a counter, and the follow-up kicks also land on their mark.

    This brings up a very important point: With the frame info I detailed above, I was giving you those moves with are the safest to execute, using the d+P as the example of an opponents follow-up attack. Also, I was assuming that no delay between the moves would occur. As you can see in the above example, even skilled opponents need time to regroup, and often pause, if slightly many times during a match. This means, that although my listing gave you the safest counters to utilize, it is not the only effective tools in the situation. these come from knowing your opponent, and reacting to specific situations in a match.

    Now, back to the vid. The f+P,K,K all hits, and the last hit puts you at +4 frames. Notice that it also pushes the opponent out of range of throws, and short range moves. The Vanessa follows up that assault with a well chosen d+K,P,P. The reasons this move is a great choice are many. Firstly, for the Jeffrey to connect with an attack from that range he will either have to move forward momentarily (at the expense of frames/time), begin a longer ranged attack that will be slower than what he needs (since Vanessa is at +4 frames, it needs to be quick), and thirdly, it mixes up the attack heights by starting low. So, because its only 17 frames to execute normally, it will beat just about any attack Jeffrey could throw. This Jeffrey is smart, and seeing the disadvantage he is in, chooses to defend. He blocks the low kick, and ducks under the follow-up punch, the last high punch catches him however, doing what I assume would be an attempted counter attack, or perhaps he felt the Vanessa was going to cancel the string, and strike mid, or low throw. At any rate, the last hit has a special property that Slams the opponent painfully to the ground, which makes it impossible to quick rise, or techroll from. As far as I am aware, this situation gives you a guaranteed pounce move. The Vanessa player knows this of course, and pounces, connecting for some extra damage.

    The roll back after the pounce creates sufficient distance, and is quick enough to allow the Vanessa to f,f+K at the Jeffrey player just as he gets up. Unprepared for the attack, the Jeffrey eats the spinning kick. Remember what I said about the f,f+K pushing your opponent back on a block as well, since as you can see, it was executed from such a distance, that even if it was blocked, the opponent would have a hard time capitalizing on it properly.

    The Vanessa then backs up, dashes forward when no rising kick seems apparent, and instead of attempting another attack the moment the Jeffrey gets up (which he may now expect) Vanessa assumes the Muay Tai stance (which you will notice makes Vanessa take a step back, making for extra distance between her and Jeffrey again). The Jeffrey momentarily ducks upon getting, perhaps afraid of the common MT P, df+P+G or just the throw, or ever f+P+K, then advances and dip down for another crouch which gets stopped by the Vanessa's MT f+P. The Vanessa scores the mid hit against the still crouching Jeff and gets a momentary stagger, which is followed up with an attempted throw. The throw unfortunately whiffs, as the f+P took Jeffrey out of range. The Jeffrey once again pauses, perhaps having believed the throw attempt might succeed with allows Vanessa the time in which to do an evade+P+K+G and score another hit. The evade is due to the fact that after the whiffed throw, the Jeffrey may have tried to retaliate with a linear poke or jab move. This is where the Vanessa player makes his first mistake. He goes on the defensive by ducking, and then attempting and whiffing (missing) the d+P sabaki attack. It is possible that he was attempting a low punch instinctively, realizing just a moment late that he is still in MT stance, or he legitimately feared either a low attack or a low throw attempt from the Jeffrey. At any rate, the move missed and Jeffrey was able to Throw the Vanessa player (there are no stats for how many frames a whiffed move takes, but clearly, due to the execution time of 18 and the blocked disadvantage of -5 (which I use as a loose idea of what the whiff time could look like) there was plenty of time for a guaranteed throw opportunity.

    This Jeffrey player, thinking clearly, and realizing how close he is to the end of the ring uses the db+P+G throw to toss his opponent behind him, and in this case, right out of the ring (throwing out a f+K knee just to be safe as well). We can learn from Jeffries action in this scenario very directly. You see, Vanessa has almost the exact same throw (db+P+G). This means, that when you see yourself in the same position that Jeffrey character was, you will know have that option to consider.

    Round Two begins with the Vanessa player both dashing back, and switching into Muay Tai stance, both helping to create a distance from Jeffrey. She waits a moment, and then rushes forward as he does the same and quickly tries to land a P. This is blocked and followed by a 14 frame f+P (a jab, or low punch would need to be executed in 1 or 2 frames of the block to connect against the Vanessa at this point) which the Jeffrey also chooses to block. However, it takes only a slight delay of the follow-up P to catch Jeffrey attempting to throw out an attack, and he gets countered, and then, the Vanessa stops the combo short (instead of adding the canned K follow-up to the f+P,P) and throws the Jeffrey for an element of surprise. The throw is particularly effective here, because the Jeffrey knows that the follow-up K that he expected would have hit him if he tried an attack, throw, or crouch. So to be safe, he tried to block and regain some control, and got the df+P+G throw for his troubles. The throw is then followed by a df+K soccer kick for added damage.

    The Vanessa then backdashes out of range again, waits for her opponent to rise, and comes in with d+K,P,P. An attempt is made here to both alter the height and timing with which the Vanessa attacks a rising opponent, and an attempt to repeat the success of the earlier d+K,P,P. Unfortunately, the Jeff learned his lesson and stayed crouching for the combo (after getting the first hit in the shins) Because of this the Vanessa winds up taking the floating Knee, and a huge combo from Jeffrey (look at that life bar disintegrate).

    What follows next is a quick series of actions. Firstly Vanessa rolls quickly to the side to avoid a ground attack, or a ground throw for Jeffrey. Seeing him crouch, and then pop up to standing Vanessa attempts a low sweep to rise, while the Jeffrey has his mind set on Kneeing the Vanessa as it gets up. The Knee doesn't track her very well, and misses, but also jumps over the low sweep. The Vanessa seeing the Knee whiff goes for one of MTs best attacks on what seems like a defenceless Jeffrey. However, due to how early Jeff started the Knee, and how long the sweep took to fully execute, the f+P+K attempt was blocked. Vanessa is at -6 frames right now but doesn't have to worry, as the Jeffrey is once again too concerned about a quick second hit, and maintains a block for too long. He toys with the idea of blocking low, which allows the [g]d+P to connect and because Vanessa has no frame advantage after that hits normally (and it looks like a slow recovery) he once again tries to counter with his Knee and this time gets a Knee in return as Vanessa does the first three hits of the K,K,P,P combo. The second kick whiffs, and the punch is blocked (-3 frames). However, the Jeffrey kept blocking, as this player seems prone to do, waiting to see if the next hit will come out instead of committing to a counter right away. So, the Vanessa tries a throw, which is a good idea, but gets, unfortunately ducked, by the Jeffrey who is paying close attention. The Vanessa is also paying attention, and knows whets coming; Its clear at this point that a great deal of the Jeffries game consists of setting up the f+K Knee float. So the Vanessa Sidesteps and gets the df+P+G throw on the Jeffrey the moment he comes down from his whiffed attack. A soccer kick to the downed opponent finishes round 2.

    The opening of round 3 is very clever. The Jeffrey hasn't been the aggressor for the first hit of the round so far, so he feels its his time, and the Vanessa doesn't immediately back away, so its time for an attack. The Vanessa, anticipating a strike of this sort, or a throw watches carefully and uses the b,f+K,P sabaki attack to deflect the fist and score some damage. Next she uses a df+P, which is fast enough at this point to beat any attack, which it does. Followed by a d+P low punch which is blocked high (which it can be, because its height is special low). The Vanessa is at -4 frames, but as we have witnessed so far, the reaction time of a person isn't perfect, which is why the ws+P (13 frames, plus the 4 she's penalized = 17) easily beats what I can only assume is the rising knee again (17 frames), and it beats it quite easily, scoring a counter attack.

    On a successful ws+P counter attack your opponent is staggered significantly which allows several great follow-ups. Being a struggleable stagger nothing can be said to be 'guaranteed' but several options I have never seen, or had someone block in time yet, so I assume they are worthwhile. The choice this player went with is the very reasonable, and very damaging f+P,K,K db+K (when the f+P string hits a staggered opponent it floats them, so the rest will hit) The db+K doesn't hit though, as Jeffrey is too heavy for that to automatically work on him, and the Jeffrey player hops to his feet with P+K+G. At this point both players, when on their feet, crouch and block, waiting to assess the situation. The Vanessa starts up the /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P in the hopes of either catching him still crouching, or getting a counter if he tries something after the execution of the punch. The Jeffrey grabs Vanessa out of the /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P. Normally you cannot throw someone during the execution of a move, but this move is different. Perhaps because it has a built in sidestep, and sidesteps aren't allowed to avoid throws. At any rate, the Jeffrey did the right thing and scores some damage. The Vanessa rolls back, and Jeffrey follows close, so that I late-executed rising K hits him and gives Vanessa the chance to try the d+K,P,P string again. Jeffrey sidesteps the d+K and tries (surprise) the f+K, which once again fails to track the Vanessa who continues to move forward due to the string. Again the f+K recovers faster than Vanessa can throw from this position, and the Jeffrey ducks, tries the f+K knee once more, which is blocked, and gets thrown as he is coming down. This, for those paying attention, is a pattern. A very similar thing happened at the end of the last round, with the Vanessa sidestepping instead of blocking last time. During your matches look for situations like this, in which the opponent naturally reacts in a certain way. That repeat cost the Jeffrey player that round.

    The Jeffrey starts by rushing with a mid hit, linked into its string, and the Vanessa, although backing up and going into MT stance, is caught by the second hit. Jeff then backs up ever so slightly, putting the Vanessa off her timing (tried for a sidestep), and comes in with a big boot for a knockdown. Jeff follows closely after Vanes techroll and hits a quick mid elbow to stun, and successfully throws. This aggressiveness could have been used in the earlier rounds, since it has thrown this Vanessa off a little. A very quick roll to the left saves Vanessa from the stomp attack, and gives her just enough time to land the rising kick. The f+P+K elbow follows immediately after, and the Jeffrey, who wants to continue his aggressive surge, gets flopped for a float combo. f+P,P and the whiffed K follow while Jeff is in the air, and he techrolls. The Vanessa backs slightly and tries the risky, but flashy db+K+G. When looking back at this video, note how many times the Jeff rises from the ground, or techrolls and then ducks, at least momentarily. This habit may have been behind the choice to use this move which has some time to get through its execution while the opponent is techrolling, and hits mid, to punish someone ducking. It connects and floats the Jeffrey, and a f+P+K ends the float. The Jeffrey player techs again, but this time doesn't immediately crouch, so the Vanessa player, who I believe expected this, waited slightly till he was firmly on his feet and went for a Jab (P) to the df+P+G throw. Despite the jab being blocked, the opponents defensive nature kicked in again, and the throw connected (throws being only 8 frames, its difficult to see them coming properly as well). It tosses the Jeffrey out of the ring for the match win.


    Wow, that was very lengthy. For the other videos you can look through them yourself and find key points in which the Vanessa either scored a nice hit, or some big damage, and also the points in which the Vanessa got destroyed, and using the frame date, and other information on the move lists determine how and why it occurred like that. It can help you to capitalize on your own situations and avoid potential pitfalls.

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    Step Five - Look at a list of Combos
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    By this time, you know all the moves; you are beginning to develop ideas on how to flow moves together, and work towards set ups; and you have seen at least one good Vanessa player in action. Since you have gone into Trial Mode, you have been shown examples of Floats and Combos, and have hopefully gone about trying some on your own.


    There are two types of combos I will have on this list. Firstly, there are those float/crumple/flop etc moves which allow for guaranteed follow-ups. These are pure combos, in that nothing can stop them once the first hit connects. Secondly are the stagger combos, which, although some are incredibly successful, even at high level play, are not guaranteed if the opponent can struggle out of them fast enough.

    Defensive Style Float Combos.

    db+K+G Float Starter
    ---------------------------------
    - P,P,P,K / 66 damage / lightweight
    - P,P,P or P,P,K / 56 damage/ lightweight
    - f,f+P,P / 60 damage/ open stance/ lightweight
    - f+P,K / 61 damage // Heavy only
    - f+P,K,K / 76 damage / closed stance / Heavy only
    - df+K / 48 damage / light or mid weight / buffer and hold the df for the guard crush middle to initiate.
    - (wall) f+P,K,K / 73 damage//
    - (wall) P(g), df+P+K, df+K / 66 damage//
    - (wall) f,f+K, (wall), u+P / 75 damage//
    - (wall) f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 89 damage//

    db+K+G MC float Starter
    -----------------------------------
    - P,P,P,K / 81-83 damage / light or mid weight / may require a slight forward dash
    - P,P,P or P,P,K / 71-73 // may require a slight forward dash
    - f,f+P,P / 75 damage / open stance
    - (wall) f+P,K,K / 88 damage//
    - (wall) P(g),P(g), df+P+K, df+K / 83damage/
    - (wall) f,f+K, (wall), u+P / 90 damage/
    - (wall) f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 104 damage/

    In the case of these wall combos, you can begin them by slamming the opponent into the wall first with either b+P,df+K, or db+P+G if your back is too the wall. I any of these connect, and the opponent is within range of the wall, he will be knocked against it, and left open long enough for the db+K+G float starter. Examples:

    df+K (MC), (wall), db+K+G (wall), f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 123 damage/
    b+P (wall), db+K+G (wall), f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 117 damage/
    b+P (MC), (wall), db+K+G (wall), f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 131 damage/
    back to wall, db+P+G, (wall), db+K+G (wall), f+P,K,K (wall), u+P / 119 damage/


    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P(MC) or /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P(MC) Stomach Crumple
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    -df+K+G / 50 damage
    -evade+P+K+G / 55 damage
    - u+P / 55 damage
    - b+K / 56 damage
    - d+P,df+K / 57 damage/ To perform this, do the d+P a little late, so the enemy bashes hard off the ground, and roll the direction from down, into the df and tap kick. The df+K is not the soccer kick; its the guard crush middle.
    -d+P+K+G, df+K / 93 damage/ This is not guaranteed, because your enemy can escape the throw. The soccer kick is guaranteed afterwards though.
    -df+P+K+G, df+K/ 98 damage/ same as d+P+K+G, df+K above.

    b,b+K+G and b,B+[K+G] Stomach Crumple
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    -evade+P+K+G / 49 - 63 damage/ first damage is without charging, second is maximum charge
    -b+K / 50 - 64 damage
    - f+P,df+K / 71 damage/ this can only be done after the move is charged and mostly in closed stance
    - d+P,df+K / 51-65 damage / see the note on the d+P,df+K follow-up in the /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P section above.
    - d+P+K+G, df+K / 87-101 damage / see the note on this follow-up in the /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P section above.
    - df+P+K+G, df+K / 92-106 damage/ see the note on this follow-up in the /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P section above.

    When calculating the damage of these combos when they hit as a Major Counter, add 12 damage on the non charged version, and +19 damage on the fully charged version.

    Vanessa has a number of other stomach crumpling moves, as detailed in the Version C command list on virtuafighter.com, generally the above follow-ups will work for them all.

    Note: From any of Vanessa's stomach crumpling moves, and their follow-ups you can attempt to initiate a "Back stagger Combo". If your opponent falls in the HTFD - Head Towards, Face down position AND Techrolls upon hitting the ground, you can connect with certain moves (in this situation the df+K guard crush middle) and cause them to stumble forward (facing away from you) for another follow-up move. Assuming the opponent makes the mistake of techrolling in this instance, the rest of the combo is nearly guaranteed. Being a Stagger combo, the opponent has a chance to struggle away, and block, but its surprisingly solid. Here is the best Back stagger Combo I have found, followed by how to properly perform it.

    Stomach Crumple - d+P,df+K, (opponent tech rolls), df+K, f+P,K,K, db+K

    Begin with any of Vanessa's moves which cause a stomach crumple, and then using a slight delay, hit them with d+P, if done properly the opponent will bounce off the ground loudly, then roll your direction pad from down to the down-forward position and tap Kick. Its important to roll to the position, or else the game will register it as an attempted soccer kick. Also, tapping the button is important, as the guard crush middle is an attack that can be charged, and you need the fastest version to make contact.
    As the opponent touches the ground after that move tap forward, forward, to dash towards him. He should be in the middle of his techroll by now. Hit him with the df+K Guard Crush Middle kick at the mid-late part of his techroll (in this situation, do the f,f dash, and then go neutral for a moment, then df+K.. if you get the soccer kick you are either doing it too soon, or not cleanly enough). If timed right you will see the opponent stumble forward awkwardly which is the animation of the Back Stagger. Note that if your opponent doesn't techroll, you can do everything above just as it is written and score the hit with the soccer kick on him for being a smartass and not letting you back stagger him.
    Now dash towards the staggered opponent with f,f and then, to prevent the wrong move from coming out press b or tap g to and then perform the f+P,K,K move. If you were to dash forward and try that you would get the first hit of the f,f+P,P string instead. So the b or g-cancel is important. Lastly, before the opponent touches the ground, hit them with the db+K for added damage. This last hit will connect on everyone except for Heavy Weights if they time their techroll at this moment very very well. Try substituting the soccer kick in place of the db+K in these instances.

    The Damage for the moves performed after your opponents techroll is 83. So just add that to the damage before your opponent techs for the total. In the case of /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P(MC), d+P, df+K the total damage of this combo would be 140!

    Two additional notes.

    If you manage the rare situation in which the f+P,K,K part of the above back stagger combo forces someone into a wall you can add on a f,f+P,P to boost the damage to 94. Also if the f,f+P,P forces the opponent into the wall again, you can follow it up with a pounce, for a total of 106 damage!!!.

    The Greatest damage I have been able to do with this combo is from this:
    b,B+[K+G](MC), f+P, df+K, (Techrolls), df+K, f+P,K,K, (wall) f,f+P,P (wall) u+P
    For a grand total of 196 damage!!! Im still looking for a way in which to fit in the 4 extra damage needed to make this a 100% damage attack.

    BT P+K head crumple starter
    -----------------------------------------------
    - d+K / 33 damage, 42 on a counter hit
    - u+P / 44 damage, 53 on a counter hit
    -turn to face opponent by pressing in there direction, and then P,P,P or P,P,K/ 47 damage, 56 on counter hit.
    Note: You can initiate a BackStagger from this starter.

    b,f+K,P(MC) float starter
    ---------------------------------------------
    - f,f+P,P / 68 damage // lightweight
    - P,P,P or P,P,K / 64 damage // lightweight
    - f+P, df+K / 68 damage // lightweight
    - df+P+K, df+K / 70 damage // lightweight
    - df+P,P / 57 damage //
    - df+K / 60 damage // buffer and hold the df for the guard crush middle to initiate

    b,f+P+K(MC) float starter
    ------------------------------------------
    - P (canned followup) / 59 damage // Lightweight
    - df+P,P / 63 damage / lightweight /Note: it may be possible to connect db+K afterwards on human opponents
    - d+P,D+K / 69 damage // lightweight

    ws+K(MC) float starter
    ----------------------------------------
    - df+K soccer kick / 40 damage //
    - df+K / 48 damage / light or middle weight / buffer and hold df for guard crush middle
    - db+K / 43 damage

    STAGGER COMBOS
    -------------------------------------------

    Opponent Crouching df+K crouch stagger
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    - f+P,K,K, db+K / 83 damage // db+K may need to become soccer kick to connect on Heavyweights
    - P+K,P, f,f+P,P / 83 damage / open stance / lightweights
    - P+K,P, db+K / 70 damage //
    - P+K,P, df+P,P / 72 damage //

    Opponent Blocking K+G or fully charged b,B+[K+G] guard stagger
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    - db+K+G to the float finisher of your choice / only works after the K+G
    - f+P,K,K, db+K / 60 damage // against Heavyweights the last kick is not guaranteed
    - P+K,P, df+P,P / 49 damage //
    - P+K,P, d+P, db+K / 51 damage // lightweight

    ws+P(MC) stumble
    ---------------------------------------
    - df+K,db+K / 63 damage// not guaranteed, but may aswell be, because few people will ever avoid the last hit
    - P+K,P, f,f+P / 87 damage / open stance / lightweight
    - P+K,P, d+P, ws+P / 79 damage / open stance only / light or middle weight
    - P+K,P, df+P,P / 76 damage //
    - f,f+P,P / 61 damage // Against heavy and mid this will only connect in open stance
    - f+K+G, df+K / 65 damage //
    - f+P,K,K, db+K / 87 damage // db+K may need to become soccer kick against Heavyweights
    - P+K,P (wall), f,f+P,P, (wall), u+P / 103-113 damage //

    ==============================
    Muay Tai Floats and combos

    f+P+K flop starter
    -------------------------------------------------
    - f+P,P,K / 47 damage / last hit will whiff against heavy opponents if you are in closed stance
    - df+P,K, u+P / 73 damage / light and middle weights
    - df+P,K, df+K / 58 damage / light and middle weights
    - f+P+K, df+K / 43 damage / soccer kick wont connect against heavy
    - b,f+P,P,P,K / 42-44 / light and middle weights / against lightweights one of the hits wont connect

    Add 10 damage to each of the above if its a counter hit.

    df+P (MC) float starter
    --------------------------------------------------
    - f+P+K, f,f+K,d+K / 69-73 damage //
    - P(G), d+P, u+P / 80 damage / against heavy, will only work without the first P(G) and only in open stance. damage becomes 72
    - P(G), df+P,K, u+P / 93 damage / lightweight only
    - df+P,K, u+P / 89 damage / light only
    - df+P,K, df+K / 74 damage / light only
    - f+P,P,K / 61 damage //
    - b,f+P,P,P,K / 63 damage / light and middleweights
    - f,f+K,d+K, K / 72 damage / for Middle and Heavyweights this is open only, or else only the first two kicks will connect. damage becomes 56 in that instance.
    - P+K,P,K / 68 damage / lightweight only
    - K (canned), df+K / 61 damage //
    - K (canned), u+P / 73 damage //

    BT P+K head crumple starter
    -----------------------------------------------
    - d+K / 33 damage, 42 on a counter hit
    - u+P / 44 damage, 53 on a counter hit
    - P+K / 38 damage, 47 on a counter hit

    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P or /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P (MC) Stomach crumple
    -------------------------------------------------------
    - d+P+K+G, df+K / 93 damage //
    - df+P+K+G, df+K / 98 damage //
    - f,f+K,d+K / 60 damage //
    - f+P,P,K / 64 damage / against light characters i found that i could only connect properly using /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P(MC)

    b,b+K+G Stomach crumple
    -------------------------------------------------
    - d+P+K+G, df+K / 87-101 damage //
    - df+P+K+G, df+K / 92-106 damage //
    - f,f+K, d+K / 54-68 damage //
    - f+P,P,K / 72-91 // Will only work if the b,b+K+G is fully charged.

    db+K+G float starter
    --------------------------------------------
    - f+P+K, df+K / 59 damage //
    - (wall) b,f+K,K, u+P // 86 damage

    Add 15 damage on a counter hit.

    You can begin a wall combo using df+K (MC) to knock the opponent into the wall, then follow with db+K+G for a combo like this:
    df+K (MC) (wall), db+K+G (wall), df+P,K, u+P / 123 damage //

    f+K+G flop starter
    ---------------------------------
    - u+P / 50 damage //



    ===============================================================
    C -- Acknowledgements
    ===============================================================

    I would like to thank VFDC for both its movelists, links, and amazing Forum. Particularily Myke who does great work there.

    DevilRei has helped a great deal through our Vanessa discussions on IRC.

    I have used the Terminology and Legend section from Hyun's Emergency Lau FAQ, aswell as finding the information about reversing rising attacks from his Dodging Rising Attacks FAQ. All of his Faqs are worth checking out. I couldnt contact him by email, so before the FAQ becomes a finished copy ill need to track him down for proper permission for the terminology section.

    Deniz has been doing an amazing job with the Vanessa Movelist Errata, and i really appreciate it. Check out the errata in the site update section of the forums.

    The people who have posted helpful information also deserve credit. These include, but are not limited to Ghostdog, Alantan, buyaodawo81, sayow, and Summers.

    Lastly, id like to thank all of #vfhome for the great channel. Sometimes it even talks about virtuafighter! For info on how to reach the channel, check out the IRC section of VFDC.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hello! I figured it was about time to post the next draft of the Vanessa FAQ. Bear in mind that this is not yet a completed FAQ. It has editting, revision, formatting, and perhaps a few more additions to be done along the way. The reason im posting it is the same as why i posted the first draft: To get information that will help create a better finished product, and to also give people more information on Vanessa.

    If you have Vanessa information you feel should be in the FAQ i would be glad to hear it; after all, im sure i couldnt have gotten everything in this draft.

    Lastly, Ive posted this FAQ in two sections, because the last time i tried posting it all at once and it gave me errors. So ill try posting half of it here, and the other half below, in a reply.




    ETP's Vanessa Faq, Second Draft.

    ==================================================================
    A -- Contents:
    ==================================================================

    A) Contents
    B) Terminology and Legend
    1) Step One - Learning the Basics
    2) Step Two - Defining Key Moves
    3) Step Three - Flow Charting and Okizeme - Second post.
    4) Step Four - Learning Through Examples
    5) Step Five - Learn Floats and Combos
    C) Acknowledgements
    ==================================================================
    Terminology and Legend
    ==================================================================
    Stick directions:
    ub u f

    b n f

    db d df

    Note: When a direction is Capitalized you are being asked to hold the direction, rather than quickly tapping it.

    P Punch button
    K Kick button
    G guard button

    Note: When a button, or buttons are to be held down, or charged, for longer than a tap, it will be displayed with square brackets around it (i.e.: b,b+[K+G], or df+/versus/images/commands/k.gif)

    FC = from crouching position
    WS = while standing
    CD = crouch dash
    MC = Major counter. Interrupting your opponent's attack during its
    execution
    mC = Minor counter. Attacking your opponent while s/he is recovering
    from a move.

    HCF = half circle forward
    HCB = half circle backward

    Positions a person can fall into:
    HTFU - Head Towards, Face up
    HTFD - Head Towards, Face down
    HAFU - Head Away, Face up
    HAFD - Head Away, Face down

    Closed Stance & Open Stance
    -------------------------------------
    These refer to the relative feet positions of you and your opponent. Closed stance is when you and your opponent are parallel to each other, from above it kinda looks like this -> //
    In Open stance you can see either both of the players backs, or both of their front sides. From above it sort of looks like this -> /\ or \/

    ===================================================================
    Step One, Learn the Move list, and the Basics:
    ===================================================================

    For a move list with frame data, please use the one provided at this site. Look closely at the move list on this site. In fact, keep a window open to it while you read this Faq, because I'm not going to list of all the damages, heights and frame stats for the moves im going to mention, and they are VERY important. Vanessas game is very reliant on having a proper understanding of frame advantage, and knowing how to utilize the frame stats as guides and instructors.

    How to Read Frame Info

    You will see 4 columns listing frame stats on the move lists. The first is the EXE column. In this column you will see the number of frames used to execute a move, from the time you press the button, to the time the move would connect against an opponent. Next is the BLOCKED column, showing the amount of frames of advantage (shown with a '+' beside the number) or disadvantage (shown with '-') the move will provide you when it is blocked. If you get +2 frames on a block that means that your opponent will be unable to do anything for 2 frames, allowing you to essentially take 2 frames off the execution of your next move. For example: you do a P+K,P and the last punch is blocked, you'll note that the move list states that on a block you get +2 frames of advantage. Both you and your opponent have the same follow-up in mind: d+P low punch. Both your low punches have the same execution time of 12, however, because you have the +2 frame advantage, he is forced to begin his punch two frames late. Your punch beats his, and you score a counter hit. The same applies to the next two columns as well, with one showing the frame stats on a normal hit, and the other on a counter hit. Often the column will have no inputted frame data, this usually means that it either knocks a person down, floats them, or staggers/stumbles/crumples them.

    How Can This Help

    My opponents in town don't know much about frame stats. They judge moves based on their perception of the amount of time it takes, rather than the actual numbers. As such they seem to be too quick to make assumptions that result in my getting ahead. For example, they see the ws+P get blocked and assume, by looking at it, that its got poor recovery, and that they have the clear advantage. They will often attempt a throw at this point. What they don't know just yet, is that I don't go tossing out throw counter able moves unless im damn sure its going to connect, and this isn't one of them. Its got -7 frames on a block, which is a lot, but it takes -8 to get the throw on me, so I can jab them out of the way. Furthermore, -7 puts me at the range in which any of my three Sabaki Attacks are within their range to ignore the appropriate attacks. This means that if a person blocks my -7 and goes for a sweep to follow it up, my db+P will stop them in their tracks.

    Knowing these situations will help you make better choices for follow-ups, and help your timing considerably.

    Keep the frame info on your computer, or save the web page for offline viewing etc. Now go into Command Training and let the game take you through a guided tour of your move list. Do every single move, and pay close attention to how each looks. If there are any tricky commands then practice that move until it no longer poses a problem. Also, if you see a move that looks weird, or interesting to you, go check out the move list page and see if it has special properties, and check out its frame data etc. Go through the move list more than once, because Vanessa has the most moves of any character, and you will want to be familiar with them all, because there are few worse things you can do in VF than standing idle because you haven't a clue what move to use in a situation.


    Next, go into Trial Mode. Go through the whole thing. If you cant pass a test in a few tries, don't be discouraged, some of them are very tough. Come back to the tough ones later, for now its important to at least witness, and try each one of the Trials. These trials will teach you valuable skills, such as throw escaping, rising quickly, techrolling, and more complicated techniques like multiple throw escapes, and ETEG (evade, with a throw escape, and then a guard to help avoid most any threat). Make sure to come back to trial mode later and do any of the trials you couldn't get. And keep coming back until those difficult trials become second nature.


    =========================================================================
    Step Two: Define your Key Moves
    =========================================================================

    If you try out every move in the move list on a good opponent you are going to get your ass kicked. You will need to begin sorting out which moves are better than the rest, and which moves become great in specific situations. Below is my list of moves that I feel are more abuse able than the rest. Bear in mind that some of this list is purely opinion, and your personal list of key moves can vary from this, as long as it works for you. This will be in two sections, first will be the Defensive Stance Discussion, followed by Muay Tai.

    I will mention in the list to follow quite a few stings that can be delayed in their execution. This is a technique you need to practice. Learn how long your delays can be between moves, and learn how quickly you can respond after stopping a combo short.

    For an example of a player who uses delays in his game go to http://zzipper.x-y.net/nick/nomercy/vs036.html near the bottom of the page you will find the clip NMT03.wmv Check it out. I think ill be referring to a few video clips throughout the guide, because they are an excellent source of info, so be prepared to do some downloading if you can. There are allot of great things to note in that video, but for now pay attention to the way in which he delays some strings, like the MT f+P,P,K. He delays it in one instance and tricks the blocking opponent to let his guard down and eat the last K. Also, in the last round of the clip you will see the Vanessa use d+K,P,P and stop the string short when he sees that the opponent is ducking it, only to later use that to his advantage by tricking the opponent into being low thrown.


    Primary Moves:

    Defensive Style (DS):
    P
    d+P
    df+P
    ws+P
    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P and /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P
    db+P
    b,f+K,P
    df+K
    f+P,K,K
    db+K
    d+K,P,P
    f,f+K
    -Throws
    270+P+G (eg U,F,D,B+P+G) there are two such throws
    hcf+P+G
    df,df+P+G
    f,d+P+G
    d+P+K+G or df+P+K+G


    P - Jab
    d+P - low Punch
    ----------------

    The most useful moves in the game. They counter hit easily, put pressure on an opponent, set up throws, set up strikes and flow charts. Here are the frame stats on them:

    P d+P
    Execution Time 14 12
    Advantage When Blocked +1 -4
    Advantage When Hit +5 +3
    Advantage When Counter-Hit +8 +5

    Vanessa has THE WORST STANDING JAB IN THE GAME. Even Jeff's Jab is faster (13 frames) and gives more advantage. Despite this problem, the standing jab and low punch still play an important part in your repertoire.

    Note: If you want to perform a standing Jab (or Any move in the game that begins a string) you can tap G to clear the buffer (a memory of what you have pressed previously). This allows you to jab twice normally in a row without the second jab actually being the canned P follow-up etc. Guard cancelling the punch is commonly denoted as P(G).

    When to use this move: Standing Jab is a great beginning to your offensive. Also use it when you feel you can counter your opponents next action with it, as the +8 frame advantage from a counter hit is too good to pass up. Jabs also make for a good filler in combos, and for constant pressure when you cant a continuous attack. The fact that it gives you +1 frames even when blocked means its a very safe move to throw out. Also, the full string attached to the jab (P,P,P,K, or P,P,K) can be used within floats, as well as themselves being a high low mix-up you can attempt for extra damage on your opponent.
    The d+P is useful when you need to beat an opponents high attack, or when you need a poke to regain a little lost tempo. low punch is a very abuse able move, and suitable for any situation in which you need a fast poke up close. Also to be used as an easy way to get into a crouching position while maintaining an offence.

    For situations in which you need to beat an opponents jab, you will want to try the next move:


    df+P - Cut Upper
    ----------------

    Vanessa's Cut upper is a high hit that comes out at 10 frames, making it one of the fastest strikes in the game. It gives 0 disadvantage when blocked, and gives you +2 frames on both a regular hit, and a counter. It can also be followed up with a canned P (df+P,P), which is a mid hit that comes out at the slower 16 frames. The mid can stomach crumple on a counter hit. Under normal situations the canned follow-up should be avoided as it gives you too much frame disadvantage when blocked, or when it hits normally (-9 and -2 respectively).

    When to use this: Use this move when you expect an attack from a standing opponent that would normally beat your regular jab. The fact that this move comes out at an amazing 10 frames means that you can beat other characters fast moves to the punch, even with one or two frames of disadvantage very easily. Also to be used if you and your opponent are both standing, and really close together as a way of starting up your offensive. The second hit of the string should be used for surprise primarily, as people who expect just the df+P could walk into the second hit and provide you with some extra damage, but they aren't going to fall for it too often.

    ws+P (FC,n+P) - Crush Jaw
    -----------------

    Her Crush Jaw punch is an amazing tool, and her best move from the crouching position. It comes out at 13 frames beating most mid and low hits, and connects mid. When it connects as an MC it will Stumble the opponent allowing you to follow-up for more damage. It can be executed standing up by tapping df,df or db,db very quickly, then momentarily going Neutral, and hitting P. If done fast enough the crouch dash barely registers, and the punch comes out very quickly (you can perform it with only one frame of crouch dashing, which gives is a 14 frame execution from a standing position if done well enough). You can also buffer the crouch dash into the recovery time of a move, to help make the motion quick. When you are too far away for this to connect the ws+K can be substituted, but the kick is slower to execute, and thus easier to avoid/counter.

    When to use this: Use this when your d+P connects, or db+K. When you find yourself crouching this is generally your best option. buffer the crouch dash at the very beginning of a round and perform it as an opener (this tactic is decent, but not to be used always). If you can get used to performing the modified version you can try using it in place of your evade attack (evade+P+K+G). Use this move from the standing position often when you have +2 frames of advantage or more as this will beat just about any follow-up, including the common low punch if done properly. An example of a time to do this move would be after your P+K,P is blocked as you get +2 frames at that moment.

    Note: if you want to practice doing the modified version (crouch dash, neutral+P) properly, go into free training against Jeffrey and set Jeffrey to perform P+K followed immediately by a low punch. Block the P+K and then try to buffer in the crouch dash, go neutral and press P. Since the blocked P+K gives you 2 frames of advantage your ws+P should come out at exactly the same time as Jeffries d+P and override it by being the stronger attack. If you are off by even one frame, Jeffrey can low punch you first.


    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P or /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P - Intruder Hook and Intercept Body Blow
    -----------------

    Move that starts from a guard and sidesteps slightly in execution, as well as hitting mid. Its greatest asset is as a counter hitting tool, as it will net you a stomach crumple with which you can tack on extra damage. Due to its slight axis shift, it is a great tool to use against linear attacks.

    When to use this: Use this when you expect a linear attack, or counterattack from your opponent. The slight sidestep is often enough to spell success for you. Use it from a crouching position for added variety. This move is not to be thrown out randomly however, as it is only really effective when it counter hits, so focus on performing it only when its possible to score a counter.

    db+P - Defensive Elbow
    -----------------

    Mid hitting Elbow that is also a Sabaki attack. Sabaki attacks are strikes that have a built in parry against certain types of attacks. This elbow will automatically stop your opponents low punches, kicks, and sweeps during the early to mid part of its execution. The move can also force your opponents into a crouching position, and as such can also provide a Slam on an air hit (more on that in the combos section).

    When to use this: Naturally, being a low hit sabaki you should focus on performing this move when you feel a low hit is imminent. Particularly focus on times in which you are at a disadvantage in frames of -7 or -6 because in those instances you will have the timing of the sabaki practically done for you, and will also benefit from being able to smash your opponent if he attempts to throw you. Another use for the move is to put your opponent into a crouching position, from which you can attempt a mid hit, or low throw on them. Generally stick to using it to punish low attack attempts however as it doesn't string particularly well.

    b,f+K,P - Parrying High Kick Combination
    -----------------

    b,f+K is a sabaki that goes through most high and mid attacks with only a few exceptions (mid kicks, and knees). Also b,f+K,P on a counter will also float your opponent. Great to throw out when you are at a disadvantage as most high or mid hits your opponent uses will arrive just in time for the early or mid part of this moves execution and thus be deflected.

    When to use this: Similar to the db+P, you should use this move only when you expect an attack from your opponent that corresponds to what the sabaki can stop. The same idea applies that it is most effective when at a disadvantage close to, but less than -8. Note that there are two extra benefits to this move. Firstly if it doesn't sabaki an attack, but instead scores a counter hit, it will float your opponent. Secondly, if the last punch is blocked you are at +2 frames of advantage. So in situations where you feel safe executing the move, you can use it on its own merits for one of those two effects, but in general stick to using it for its sabaki properties.


    df+K or DF+/versus/images/commands/k.gif - Bone Crush Middle
    -----------------

    Hits mid, looks low. Can be charged up and recovers pretty quickly. Its a solid poke, as well as a guard breaker. It causes Guard Stagger when charged which can give you the advantage, and will knock people down when it connects as such.

    When to use this: This is a very abuse able move. 16 frames of execution and a great range means that it is a safe and effective poking tool. Being mid hitting it punishes people ducking and crouch dashing very well. It also makes for an effective opener for a round. Its ability to stagger and also force people into walls makes it great for opening up some large damage. A good tool to punish Tec rollers as well as its a decently powerful mid hit. Also the charged version can be used as a nasty surprise for someone getting up off the ground, as it is unblock able. When you have +4 or +5 frames of advantage this works wonders, as it will then beat even low punchers (for example, after your regular P connects as a normal hit, you will have +5 frames and be able to safely attempt this move, someone trying a low punch will be staggered).

    f+P,K,K - Back Knuckle Combo
    -----------------------------

    This string starts fast, hits mhm, does great damage (60) can be delayed during each of the hits to throw off peoples timing, works great in some relatively high floats, and can be substituted with either f+P,df+K (f+P+G if it counters) or cancelled with G (to clear the buffer) so you can input something original. If the first hit strikes a staggered opponent it will pop him into the air, so the kicks are guaranteed.

    When to use this move: As mentioned above it can be used as an effective and damaging way to punish a staggered opponent, or used in certain float situations (like db+K+G into the wall). As a 16 frame execution mid hit, it can be thrown out in a similar manner to the df+K. However, it puts you at more of a disadvantage, so it isnt to be used as often. It can be used while you are rushing your opponent, and with added delays to trick your opponent into eating one of the follow-up kicks even if the f+P is blocked (if you downloaded nmt03.wmv from the link above you can see this technique used against the akira player.)

    db+K - Sit Down Low Kick
    ------------------------------------

    A simple low kick that puts you in the crouching position. It was decent range, and is faster than d+K+G in both execution and recovery. Suitable for stopping an opponent from charging at you, or as a cheap way to finish a match when the opponent is low on life. Back dash, or crouch dash back, and then execute this to catch people following close behind often works. Although in the middle of a battle it is primary used as a low hitting set up for the ws+P, or throw mix-up.

    When to use this: as has been explained above you should use this primarily to catch people coming towards you, and to avoid high attacks. Also use it to vary the ways in which you put yourself into a crouching position. Not as good as the low punch, especially up close.

    d+K,P,P - Stopping Low Smash
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Begins with a nice standing low hit and follows with a delay able combo that catches quit a lot of people. Like the combo above it works wonders when mixed with the delays, G buffer clearing. If the last hit connects it causes a Slam, and allows you to follow it up with a Pounce move (U+P) for more damage. Also one of the few moves that will allow Vanessa to destroy breakable walls.

    When to use this: Use this when your opponent is approaching you, or when you feel he is expecting a high or mid attack. Remember to vary the timing on the punches or cancel out of the combo if your opponent feels he can duck them.

    f,f+K - Shadow Slicer
    -------------------------------------------

    Circular kick (cannot be evaded) which comes out decently fast, and has superior range. When blocked you are at a fairly high disadvantage, however, it also pushes your opponent away, meaning lessening the severity of the frame disadvantage. A great tool for punishing techrollers and rising kicks, as it will power through both quite nicely when properly timed. A mid to far range only weapon, as up close you are likely to be poked out of the execution, or it will be blocked and the opponent will be close enough to retaliate.

    When to use this: Use this from a distance, either when your opponent is getting up, or attempting to close the distance between you. Its also a safe move to use when you have staggered your opponent, as it will often connect, and hit anyone trying to duck. Also, if you expect your opponent will evade, you can use this move to hit him safely. Lastly, if your opponent is near the edge of the ring, this move will push your opponent back on a block, and toss him pretty far on a hit.

    df+K - Soccer Kick
    -----------------------------------------------

    Your df+K becomes this soccer kick when an opponent is lying on the ground. This is a fast alternative the pounce (u+P) for damaging opponents who have been knocked down. You will have many opportunities during a round to connect with a soccer kick, and each one adds up. After most of your throws, and any moves that slam your opponent into the ground not allowing them to techroll this move is practically guaranteed.


    270 Throws - Heaven's Gate (DFUB, or UFDB), and Leg Breaker (the ones ending forward)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    These are my picks for Vanessa's best throws. The action may be difficult to some people at first, but becomes second nature pretty quickly. The 270 that ends by pressing forward is your most damaging throw. The one ending in back is less damaging, but harder to escape, as less people instinctively press b+P+G to avoid throws. Each puts you in a good position to follow-up with a df+K. Also, each throw puts the opponent in a position in which their Mid Rising Kick will not be circular, which means that if they attempt a mid rising kick you can choose to sidestep, or even Reverse it.

    When to use this: Best times to throw are after a move that gives you +8 or more frames or as a mix-up from the crouching position after something like a low punch. Naturally if you catch your opponent guarding, or expecting a high or mid attack you can attempt a throw as well. Lastly, try utilizing a throw out of your Evade Manoeuvre rather than a strike for a good mix-up.

    HCF+P+G - Army Combination
    ----------------------------------------------

    Another good damaging throw, with the disadvantage of a f+P+G escape. Still a great throw, due to the high damage and free df+K that you can score afterwards.

    df,df+P+G - Arm Crush Throw
    -----------------------------------------------

    df+P+G throw escape is the primary reason for this throws quality. The fact that the action comes out smoothly while crouching, or crouch dashing is another bonus.

    f,d+P+G
    ----------------------------------------------

    Purely to be used if your other throws are being escaped too often, as few people will ever expect to do a d+P+G throw escape. The problem with this move is that after it connects the camera switches on you, which can be disorienting, and you cannot tack on a df+K hit.

    d+P+K+G or df+P+K+G - Rib Crush Body and Rib Crush Knee
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Vanessa's Two Low throws. They have a difficult escape for newer players to get around (d+P+K+G, or df+P+K+G) and have amazing range. If you have an opponent who cannot consistently escape these throws then they are a source of a huge amount of damage. The df+P+K+G is the better of the two, as it is higher damage and a more difficult escape to perform quickly.

    When to use this: Whenever you block a low move of your opponents that has terrible recovery you can attempt the low throw. Also, after your opponent techrolls you can score a low throw if timed right and your opponent doesn't poke free. When your opponent gets up at any time without a kick you can try to rush up to them and throw them, as many peoples immediate reaction to that is a fear of being thrown normally, so they may duck. That's something which is dependant on your opponent however. Lastly, any time you can condition your opponent to duck as an instinct you should consider low throwing him. Remember the example video I linked to with the Wolf player who got fooled into ducking? You can do similar tricks to your enemies.

    Secondary Moves:
    b,b+K+G
    bt P+K
    b,df+P+K
    b+P+K / db+P+K
    sidestep+P+K+G
    d+K+G
    db+K+G
    P+K,P
    neutral auto punch inashi


    b,b+K+G - Back Charge Kick
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Back dashes to avoid attacks, can be charged to alter its timing and cancelled in two different ways (hold k and press g, or just tap g during the move) either to backdash without a kick, or to backdash, then charge forward and fake the kick in front of your enemy. When if connects it stomach crumples and when its fully charged it staggers people out of their guard. Only a -6 frame disadvantage when blocked meaning that you cannot be thrown, and your reversals, sabakis, inashis etc can save you from most retaliations. A move to be used sparingly however, as it takes a long time to initiate, and can be avoided by smart opponents.

    When to use this: Back Charge kick makes for a sometimes useful opener, as it will distance you from your opponents opening move, and counter attack. It is also a great tool against people who like to get off the ground with a rising kick. As you can back out of the way just in time to avoid the rising kick and hit them with your kick. You can use it to move away by cancelling it, or to fake out your opponent. Also, if your opponent is the 'deer in the headlights' type, you can fully charge it and guard stagger the silly guy.

    BT P+K - Face Crush Elbow
    --------------------------------------------

    This is your best back turned attack. Generally you wont find yourself in this position, seeing as only b+K+G will make you back turned, but its good to know just in case. When it connects it head crumples the opponent, to allow follow-up attacks. when blocked you are at 0 disadvantage, and at 17 frames execution it is relatively quick for its potential damage.

    When to use this: The only time to use this is when you are back turned with a slight amount of time to allow yourself to execute the move. This situation should rarely come up however, since you are rarely if ever facing away from your opponent.

    b,df+P+K - Cut-in Sabaki
    ----------------------------------------------

    Mentioned only because it is another Sabaki manoeuvre. This move only works against low punches and is handled just like a reversal. The window of opportunity in which this will work is fairly small, and despite being called a sabaki, it doesn't hit the opponent, or do damage. All it does is crouch dash towards the opponent, putting you in a crouching position naturally, and if a low punch comes at it at the right time you will stagger him in a similar way to a MC ws+P. In most cases it is easier to land db+P against low punches, however, if you can learn when to use this move you will be able to tack on more damage than a simple db+P would let you.

    When to use this: Use this only when you expect a low punch retaliation from your opponent, in a manner similar to a reversal.

    b+P+K / db+P+K - Reversals
    ------------------------------------------------

    b+P+K will reverse high kicks and punches, while db+P+K will reverse mid punches, mid kicks, and sidekicks. Reversals aren't seen a lot in the high level tournament clips that I have seen, but they are there, and they get a big response when one is landed. To use the reversals you need to have a good knowledge of both your opponent and the character he chooses, because a lot of it is about anticipation, rather than reaction, as its hard to react so fast. Despite the difficulty I suggest you learn them, and practice them. Get your sorry ass beaten time after time if that's what it takes to practice learning these in a match because its worth it to know. Reversing a move is sooo much better than blocking it, and very rewarding in terms of pride. Also, try to practice them against human competition mostly, so you can get a feeling for individuals habits.

    When to use this: Use the reversal when you are sure that you know what your opponent will do. Such as when he initiates a string that he abuses too much, or if he has a habit of using the same move in a particular situation. When you use this will depend entirely upon how well you can predict the methods of your opponents.

    Evade+P+K+G - Barrier Kick
    -------------------------------------------

    Practice evading, and utilize the Trial mode to help you learn when to evade, and how to do it safely. The Barrier kick is the canned follow-up to the evade and is a useful move for punishing moves you have stepped around.

    When to use this: Use the Evade when to avoid linear attacks from your opponent.

    d+K+G - Low Spin Slicer
    ---------------------------------------

    Not at good as db+K, but has a good reach, great for striking low from a fair distance, and will knockdown on counter hit.

    When to use this: Use this in a way similar to the db+K but with more of a focus on counter hitting high hits.

    db+K+G - Leg Bomber
    ---------------------------------------

    One of Vanessa's few Float Starters. The leg bomber is unfortunately both slow, and very obvious in its execution. The advantage is that it can hop over low hits, and take advantage of some staggers for a possible combo. Practice the combos off of this move, but do not expect to make use of them very often. Still, when done at the right time, you will appreciate the extra damage.

    When to use this: Use this move when you know a low hit is coming to hop over it and score a float. You can use it as a fancy way to avoid a low rising kick for example, although I find it doesn't connect as often as I would like, it still does keep you from getting hit by the sweep however. If you stagger someone you can try this move, its risky, but sometimes rewarding. Also to be used if you manage to strike someone against a wall, so you can score a wall float.

    P+K,P - Heavy Hook Combo
    ---------------------------------------

    Mid, High punch combo that does decent damage, and comes out at 18 frames, which isn't too bad. What makes it a good move is that if the last hit is blocked you are still at the advantage by +2 frames. This can keep the pressure on an opponent and also make him screw up. Most people would assume a move such as this being blocked would put you at a disadvantage, which could allow you to score a counter hit afterwards.

    When to use this: Its a decent starter for a rush if you can time it right, as it will provide you frames of advantage when blocked. Also good during a string of attacks if your opponent is either at a large disadvantage, or seems willing to continue blocking. Can be used on people rising or techrolling right near you, as it will put them on the defensive right away, and also at a frame disadvantage.

    Neutral - Auto Punch Inashi
    ----------------------------------------

    Very useful move which will grab incoming High or Mid punchs while you are in a neutral position (not pushing anything, just letting the punches come at you). Naturally, this move isnt to be counted upon always, as you become very vulnerable to non-punch attacks when you use it.
    After grabbing the punch you have the option of doing up to 3 attacks in a row. You can mid kick with K, low kick with d+K or try a throw with P+G. At any point during this inashi if you execute a throw, it will end the sequence. But up to 3 kicks can be done in a row, or 2 kicks and a throw for example.
    The opponent can try to block the kicks using either G or d+G depending on the kick height, and can escape the throw using P+G at the right time. Also, he can attempt to struggle out of the wrist grab. So the key is to execute your follow ups quickly, and mix up the type of moves you use, so the opponent cant guess what you will try next.

    The throw from the Left Hand hold (also happens to be an Open Stance position) will make the opponent stumble forward for a followup attack. Try f,f+K for a quick and easy attack, or f,f+K+G,f+P+G for a low mix up, or f+P,K,K for a chance at some decent damage.

    Primary Moves:

    Muay Tai (MT)
    P
    d+P
    f+P+K
    d+K,P,P or d+K,P,K
    f+P,P,K
    db+K
    -Throws
    df+P+G
    f+P+G
    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P or /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P

    P - Flicker Jab
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Although this Jab is faster than her DS jab (its 13 frames to execute) it gives worse frame advantage.

    Execution Time 13
    Advantage When Blocked +0
    Advantage When Hit +3
    Advantage When Counter-Hit +6

    Still and important tool to use. And remember, just like with the DS jab, you should learn to G cancel after each jab if you do not want the canned follow-up. This jab links into the P,P,P combination, which is bad in terms of frame advantage, but is decent to finish off a tiny fragment of your opponents life, as the two extra punches come out fast.

    When to use this: This is to be used in a similar manner to the standing jab in DS, but can be used slightly more frequently if desired due to it being faster, and also due to the lack of the 10 frame df+P in this stance.

    Note: Vanessa does not have a low punch in this stance.

    d+P - Defensive Elbow
    -----------------------------

    Almost identical to the DS elbow of the same name (db+P) except with a slightly altered command input, and a small change to the frames.

    When to use this: See the DS notes.

    f+P+K - Lightning Elbow
    -----------------------------------------

    This is the best move in MT Stance. Its a high elbow attack that comes out at 14 frames and flops your opponent on a hit, or counter hit for combo damage afterwards (Vanessa's most reliable float starter). When blocked you are at a reasonable -6 frames, so you cant be thrown and still have some options available to you. This is the move that you will be attempting to set up quite a bit while in MT stance. The follow-ups aren't spectacular, but any free damage is good damage.

    When to use this: Use this when your opponent is standing first of all, since it can be ducked and then punished. Depending on your opponent you will only need +1 or +2 frames of advantage to defeat a standing jab. Its quickness means that you can use it to counter incoming attacks quite well. An interesting tool is to crouch dash backwards slightly, to lure your opponent into moving forward, and then smashing him with this move. Any time in which you feel you can score a hit with this move you should take it. Just beware of having it blocked or ducked etc.

    d+K,P,P or d+K,P,K - Stopping Low Smash
    ------------------------------------------

    d+K,P,P is similar to its DS counterpart except for some a frame difference (+5 frames when blocked in MT, and +2 when the last hit is blocked in DS). You can now mix it up with d+K,P,K for a mid hit. Be careful using the mid hitting version as it is prone to missing against some characters while in the wrong stance.

    When to use this: See the DS notes

    f+P,P,K - Elbow Storm
    -------------------------------------

    One of this stances most efficient and useful float enders. It can also be used normally, adding delays and cancelling early like many of her other strings. It begins with a nice 14 frame mid elbow for counter hitting.

    When to use this: The elbow storm is best suited for tacking on damage during floats and crumples, but its also a good tool for poking (the first hit at least) and applying pressure with the full combo, while adding pauses when desired.

    db+K - low kick
    -------------------------------------

    Its a quick low kick that keeps you in the standing position. Great for poking away bits of life, and for setting up your opponent for interesting mix-ups. MT stance is very low on useful low hits, so this one is important to take note of.

    When to use this: Up close, as a way to chip at your opponents life, and to make him wary of low moves, or to trick him into ducking. As a cheesy way to get that last sliver of life from your opponent at the end of a round.

    df+P+G - Double Knee Strike
    -------------------------------------

    The best throw in MT stance. Use this throw most often until your opponent shows that he can escape it too often. Its got good damage, a hard escape, when escaped you are only at -2 frames, and it can toss your opponent into a wall, allowing you to pounce (u+P) them for free.

    When to Use this: See DS notes on throws, but also remember the suggestion above, to use this move (or the f+P+G) near a wall to score a free pounce afterwards.

    f+P+G - Triple Heavy Smash
    -------------------------------------

    The other good MT throw, similar to the one above, but less damaging, and with an easier escape.

    /versus/images/commands/g.gifu+P or /versus/images/commands/g.gifd+P - Intruder Hook and Intercept Body Blow
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    See the DS version.


    Secondary Moves
    b,b+K+G
    df+P,K
    bt P+K
    K,K,P,P
    df+K
    P+K,P,K
    b,f+K,K
    db+K+G

    b,b+K+G - Back Charge Kick
    --------------------------------------
    Similar to the DS version.

    df+P,K - Upper Heel Sword
    ---------------------------------------

    df+P in MT is an unfortunate case. It is a mid hitting uppercut, that floats on a counter hit, and when it floats, its the highest and best float tool she has. However, its 19 frames to execute, making it too slow to be relied upon as an effective floating tool. Which is a real shame, since df+P is the only float starter that really allows any kind of creativity in the floats. With this in mind the move is still useable as a float starter, you just need to be very careful when you choose to use it. After all it only floats on a counter hit. Its also a good move to finish floats with, and the Kick at the end is great, as it is a slam move, and can also force people into a crouching position.

    When to use this: During floats against most of the light and middle weights it is effective as it slams them to the ground. If you feel you can time it well enough you can attempt to use it standing up, or from a crouch dash to attempt a float. Failing that you can hit with the K follow-up and try to punish them while they are forced into a crouching position. Lastly you can attempt to use this during a sidestep.

    bt P+K - Face Crush Elbow
    -------------------------------------

    Very similar to the DS version.

    K,K,P,P - Smash Out
    --------------------------------------------

    Powerful and versatile combo. Once again, you can delay the hits, and stop the combo at any time. Also you can change the last hit to a K for a mid hitting knee ender.

    When to use this: Bring this move out to apply more pressure to a frustrated opponent. After a series of quick assaults, or some goofy machi style playing this can add a variety to the tempo of the game since its easily delay able. If an opponent isn't familiar with this string, it really makes them guess.

    df+K - Short Jump Middle
    -----------------------------------

    Quick Mid kick. Another poking tool in your arsenal with a bit more range. Can also be used to knock people into Walls for a wall combo.

    When to use this: Its to be used as a long range poke, and as a solid mid hit to punish ducking people. Similar to DS df+K in the times that you can use it, but without all that moves bells and whistles.

    P+K,P,K - Heavy Hook Combination
    -----------------------------------

    Unfortunately the P+K,P part, while looking like the DS version, doesn't give you the advantage when its blocked. Although it does only put you at -1 frame. This is a decent combo overall, and looks nice when thrown into a float.

    When to use this: See the DS notes for P+K,P

    b,f+K,K - Slicer Hurricane
    -------------------------------

    Strong two hit combo with good range, and can push the opponent away making it safer than its frames would indicate. Not a move to use often, but at the right time, it can be worthwhile.

    When to use this: Similar in essence to the times you would use f,f+K except that the first hit of this string is High. Long range tool.

    db+K+G - Leg Bomber
    -----------------------

    see the DS version.

    -Moves not mentioned above.
    ===============================

    There are alot of moves i didn't mention. Some of them are situational, others are only good against lower level players and others I may have just not realized. There are only a few crap moves that I wouldn't suggest you use, unless you are well ahead and looking for something weird to throw out. For example, f,f+P+K,P is a move that i can land against many of the people I play against. The tackle and follow up punch will own them all day long. However, against anyone who knows what they are doing, its really really easy to avoid and punish, so I don't include it above, even though you may find great success with it. Also, f,f+P,P almost got included, because in certain floats, and staggers it can be added for damage, and it will confuse many people. Where i play, people seem to have incredible difficulty blocking the second hit of the string and I don't know why. So I put that in the "too situational" category.

    The list above is only a starting point after all. Vanessa has so many moves, and can be played in a multitude of ways that when you get comfortable playing her, your list may end up looking completely different. Also, I will admit right away that my Muay Tai stance is weaker than my Defensive Style. Bear these things in mind before taking the list above as gospel.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Something that should be noted: Due to the new Graphical Commands in VFDC certain charge moves showed up as the image icons instead of the way i intended. So for the above faq when you see a button displayed like this : /versus/images/commands/k.gif or/versus/images/commands/p.gif or/versus/images/commands/g.gif , it is indicating that you are holding that button down. The situations where this occurs seems to be with the guard crush middle (df+K) and the intruder hook/intercept body blow (g)u+P and (g)d+P. Sorry for any confusion.
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    ETP: A very impressive contribution. I love the style you have used in writing this FAQ. Your method of explaining why a move should be used is especially commendable. An excellent job overall. I intend to read this very closely to see what I can learn. Great job!

    One very minor point. You wrote: b,f+K is a sabaki that goes through most high and mid attacks with only a few exceptions (mid kicks, and knees).
    Actually it is a Sabaki vs. knees! The exceptions among mid and high attacks are mid kicks, side kicks, crescents (high and midlevel), and somersault attacks. It would probably be easier to specify what can be parried, rather than list the exceptions (i.e., high/mid punches/elbows, high kicks, and knees).
     
  5. sayow

    sayow Well-Known Member

    Vanessa's Sabaki

    <font color="white">I hope I'm understanding you correctly: it looks like you're saying that Vanessa's Sabaki /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif is only usable vs. Knees. If that's the case, Deniz, then the Sabaki Chart is also wrong on this site. However, I've come to know VFDC's and ETP's information on Vanessa's Sabaki to be correct. I'll check when I get home but I'm pretty sure that this is true. BTW, thanks for all your input on the boards and the charts. You own, girl! I'm just rentin'...

    ETP: you rock the house, dude! I'm still admiring your work and I'm still working on my mini-FAQ on Vanessa's Guard/Intercept series: /versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif. Folks like you and Deniz make me wish that I had more time to play this game. It's been the only thing I've played on my PS2 since it came out and I haven't gotten tired of it...</font color>
     
  6. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Sabaki

    I hope I'm understanding you correctly: it looks like you're saying that Vanessa's Sabaki ,+ is only usable vs. Knees.
    No, no! I am saying it's a Sabaki vs. what I put in the parentheses at the end! In other words, it is a Sabaki vs. knees, high elbows, mid elbows, high punches, mid punches, and high kicks. I guess it would have been clearer if I had written "(i.e., it is a Sabaki vs. high/mid punches/elbows, high kicks, and knees)."
    Currently the Version C Command List doesn't mention high elbows and knees, and neither it nor the Sabaki chart mention knees. I was concerned because ETP was saying it doesn't work against knees, probably based on those lists. Also, his list of high/mid level exceptions didn't mention crescents and somersaults.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you for the correction on the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif sabaki attack. That is exactly the type of addition, and correction that i am looking for, so that the faq can come out error-free and useful.

    I'm sorry that i had missed that information in your Vanessa Errata work. Keep up the good work /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif
     
  8. sayow

    sayow Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Sabaki

    <font color="white">Thanks for the clarification, Deniz. The more I play Vanessa, the more I appreciate her turtle game, i.e. her counter-strike and retaliation moves. She just abounds in the ability to respond to attacks. My present play with her is based on those fun little /versus/images/commands/g.gif moves and her side step kicks:

    (hold /versus/images/commands/g.gif)/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    (hold /versus/images/commands/g.gif)/versus/images/commands/uf.gif|/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    (hold /versus/images/commands/g.gif)/versus/images/commands/ub.gif|/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    (hold /versus/images/commands/g.gif)/versus/images/commands/ub.gif|/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif (counter hit) /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    /versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif

    These are definitely some good moves to work at least twice per best of 3. This kind of game can be run all day against scrubs and can end up being a pretty good practice session for us Vanessa users... LOL</font color>
     
  9. sayow

    sayow Well-Known Member

    Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    <font color="white">You can exploit a turtle by his tendency to position his defense. If he's standing up and guarding, bust out a simple throw (/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) and post an easy 40 points of damage on his candy @$$. If he's crouching, put a Rib Crush Body (/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) or a Rib Crush Knee (/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) and punish him that way. All these throws will make him think twice about that tactic again. Use the following if you want to get medieval and artistic: these are some of my favorite Vanessa starters...

    Defensive Stance
    1) /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif > /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif > /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    2) /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    3) /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    4) /versus/images/commands/g.gif,/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    5) /versus/images/commands/g.gif,/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    6) /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    7) /versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif > /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif > /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    8) /versus/images/commands/p.gif,throw

    MT
    1) /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    2) /versus/images/commands/g.gif,/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    3) /versus/images/commands/g.gif,/versus/images/commands/u.gif|/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    4) /versus/images/commands/f.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    5) /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif ->*/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    6) /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/k.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    6) /versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif > /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif > /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    7) /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif -> /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    8) /versus/images/commands/p.gif,throw

    You can easily tag on her pounces (/versus/images/commands/u.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif or /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif) but they are not always guaranteed...

    <font color="lightblue">[Just putting this down here so people can see it and copy it the old way...]

    You can exploit a turtle by his tendency to position his defense. If he's standing up and guarding, bust out a simple throw (P+G) and post an easy 40 points of damage on his candy @$$. If he's crouching, put a Rib Crush Body (d+P+K+G) or a Rib Crush Knee (df+P+K+G) and punish him that way. All these throws will make him think twice about that tactic again. Use the following if you want to get medieval and artistic: these are some of my favorite Vanessa starters...

    Defensive Stance
    1) b,f+P+K > d+K > d+K
    2) df+P+K -> df+P+K+G
    3) df+P+K -> d+P+K+G
    4) G,u|d+P -> df+P+K+G
    5) G,u|d+P -> d+P+K+G
    6) b,b+K+G -> df+P+K+G
    7) db+K+G > PPPK > d+K+G
    8) P,throw

    MT
    1) f+P+K -> f+P+K -> d+K -> d+K -> d+K+G
    2) G,u|d+P -> df+P+K+G
    3) G,u|d+P -> d+P+K+G
    4) f,f+P+K,P,P
    5) df+P ->*K -> df+K
    6) df+P,K -> df+K
    6) db+K+G > PPPK > d+K+G
    7) b,b+K+G -> df+P+K+G
    8) P,throw

    You can easily tag on her pounces (u+P or df+K) but they are not always guaranteed... </font color>
     
  10. Jinisgod

    Jinisgod Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    Agreed on the pkg throws or do what i do,by punishing into a wall and going for a wall throw into the mount

    one they get up from the wall throw most gamers are pissed so i get the mount about 90% of the time, ill check the damage for you guys tonite.....

    Red /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif
     
  11. madred

    madred New Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    guys, i have a questoin. HOW do i have to do when i face a really fast character like Lion. it's so difficult to handle. every time i fight against him i lose.
     
  12. Slayer

    Slayer Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    <font color="lightsilver"> First guard then after he finishes his combo middle kick/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gifthen low throw him/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif.Then jump on him then or you can reverse all of his moves. </font color>
     
  13. Zero-chan

    Zero-chan Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    Are you having trouble versus CPU or human Lion? For the CPU, there's a bunch of exploits that you can do, but I highly dislike playing in such a manner, as it doesn't adequately preapre you at all for real human competition.

    For starters, working to implement more sabaki into your gameplay will definitely help against him. Vane has two sabaki attacks in DS (/versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif) and one in MT (/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif). Both of these prove extremely useful in many situations and can often turn the flow of the fight to your favor. Just don't overuse them, at the risk of becoming predictable.

    Also, if you have a problem with a specific player, you might just want to try using more MT when playing them, for two reasons:
    a. Most people are more used to fighting against DS, and
    b. MT has several quick strikes that can be used to interrupt.

    I find that using MT works wonders against some Sarah players especially, but that's just my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

    Just remember that since MT has been replaced in Evo, you're gonna need to start fresh when that comes out. (^^;)
     
  14. Vanessasman

    Vanessasman Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    A sayow ur the same 1 at the Ign boards right when did u become a mod there? and Zero-chan ur at the ign boards 2 right. Oh and excllent job ETP
     
  15. zZz

    zZz Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    "Just remember that since MT has been replaced in Evo, you're gonna need to start fresh when that comes out. "

    /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif I didn't know that MT was changed in Evo. What has changed about it?
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    Isnt it about time to take this thread off of Sticky and get something up to date and usefull put in its place?
     
  17. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    As soon as an up to date and useful one is offered, it'll take its place. In the meantime, this is better than nothing... and probably (for now) prevents more questions than it creates... that's a happy thing.
     
  18. DoomShroom

    DoomShroom Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    I'm not in this thread to learn vanessa (mainly cause I hate the F@#$%N B^!@H) but rather to know how to counter all of her mount punches and elbows. I figure it would be best to ask vanessa players that play against her as well. Also, does anyone know why smashing buttons against her punch counter sometimes causes a player to get up with an advantage against her? And if so, what is really the button/ stick command needed to preform it.

    thanx for any info guys

    p.s. VFDC is a GOD send! You myke... ARE THA MAN yo!

    -tha shroom of D00M
     
  19. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    once vanessa mounts you she can do up to three attacks. Each one can be a punch, an elbow, or a big punch. Escape them with guard, d+guard, or just press P+G to get out of the big one. The third one is usually a big one.
     
  20. DoomShroom

    DoomShroom Member

    Re: Vanessa's Starters and Turtle Tactics

    right on man... I'll give those a try. I thought I switched my post up last night telling people I found a link for everyone and how to escape their ground/catch throws. (guess I gotta figue out how that edit button really works) I'll put this new info to good use tonight.

    <-----is a newbie when it comes to VFDC /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

    looking at the info again.... off the top of my head doesnt she have 2 different punches out of the mount? It seems she either throws a cross, a straight jab at the chin and then usually finishes up with the big elbow. but now that I atleast know commands, I can quit mashin buttons tryin to figure it out.

    1 more thing, how come sometimes, after vanessa counters a punch, her opponent can get up funny lookin that will give them the advantage. Again I just smash buttons and sometimes it happens some times it doesnt. Anyone know the command for what I'm talking about?


    -tha shroom of D00M
     

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